"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1210 Old 03-18-2010, 10:51 AM
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One of the things you have to watch out for is that most displays process in YCbCr. I know all of the DLPs convert RGB into 4:4:4 and then back into RGB.
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post #632 of 1210 Old 03-18-2010, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

One of the things you have to watch out for is that most displays process in YCbCr. I know all of the DLPs convert RGB into 4:4:4 and then back into RGB.

I figure that whatever yields the best test patterns I should go with. I am going to play more now with it. I still don't understand why 4:x.x is not performing as well as RGB video. Kind of odd.
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post #633 of 1210 Old 03-18-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Hi Jim,

If you turn brightness up, do the two bars on the left ever show up? The BD60 is capable of showing all four bars. If you do not see them, it may be your display that is clipping them. You may also want to try 4:2:2, 4:4:4, and RGB output from your player to see if this changes.



The pattern does not contain any dots in it. What you describe sounds a lot like dither from the display. Is this display a DLP? If so, can you see the checkerboard (large squares) on the left and right hand side of the pattern? On a DLP, one group of squares on the checker should be free of dots while the other should have dots in it.

If you only have the two bars on the right, turn brightness down until the dots are gone on the inside bar. It should one or two clicks on the control to bring the bar back. The dots should be all across the bar, if it is dither, not just the edges. You should be able to see the inside bar from your seating position. It is the checkerboard you may have to put your nose to the screen with.

I turned brightness all the way up, and the 2 left bars never appear. The display is a Mits. HC3800 projector. What is the feature called in the BD60, where I change to the settings you mention? I don't recall seeing those. From my seating position, should I be able to see both bars or just one? I never saw the checkerboard. Thanks.
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post #634 of 1210 Old 03-19-2010, 01:16 AM
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Well, it still seems that RGB video is the best color space with the Oppo and the AE4000. There may be extra conversions going on with this setting, but the difference I see in the Chroma pattern when ging from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 is drastic.....and the difference when going from 4:2:2 is noticeable. I cannot see any other ill effects from using RGB video.....so I am using RGB video for now.

The contrast pattern has a very smooth grayscale....smoother than on my Pio 5090 plasma. The shadow detail is also better on the AE4000 than on the Pio 5090. So far very pleased with the Oppo and AE4000 combo.
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post #635 of 1210 Old 03-19-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:


What is the feature called in the BD60

Panasonic does not let you choose the color space output in that player.

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From my seating position, should I be able to see both bars or just one?

Both.

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I never saw the checkerboard.

Sounds like your display is actually clipping above black. What does the clipping pattern look like? Just white clipped or all boxes?
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post #636 of 1210 Old 03-19-2010, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Panasonic does not let you choose the color space output in that player.



Both.



Sounds like your display is actually clipping above black. What does the clipping pattern look like? Just white clipped or all boxes?

I don't know. I'll be back after I check it later. With the contrast test, the last two bars on the right are not visible. I set it to the highest setting where the next bar(third) was visible. Is that right? Does it matter what the other parts of the test look like, or am I done with the contrast test? I came up with 13(out of 30) for contrast. When I checked contrast with the AVS709 pattern, I come up with 21. Why the big difference? Which should I stick with? Thanks.
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post #637 of 1210 Old 03-19-2010, 04:48 PM
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Does it matter what the other parts of the test look like, or am I done with the contrast test?

Do you mean the gradient / ramps in the middle and the top part with black bars? The black bars are just there for reference, you should not make any adjustments off of them. The ramps are useful. Once you find the max contrast setting, you want to go up and down and see if any setting below the max produces a smoother looking ramp. ie a ramp with fewer or no steps in it. By steps I mean banding.

Quote:


Why the big difference?

There should not be any difference as long as their levels are correct and also go out to 253. Does your display have a dynamic IRIS? What is the number on the last bar you can see with the contrast set to 21?

You might want to check the Dynamic Range High pattern on our disc and compare it to the AVS disc. They are both full screen white patterns that blink.

I will say that the contrast pattern on the HQV 2.0 is completely wrong. The levels don't match the text on screen and the pattern itself is clipped.
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post #638 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Do you mean the gradient / ramps in the middle and the top part with black bars? The black bars are just there for reference, you should not make any adjustments off of them. The ramps are useful. Once you find the max contrast setting, you want to go up and down and see if any setting below the max produces a smoother looking ramp. ie a ramp with fewer or no steps in it. By steps I mean banding.



There should not be any difference as long as their levels are correct and also go out to 253. Does your display have a dynamic IRIS? What is the number on the last bar you can see with the contrast set to 21?

You might want to check the Dynamic Range High pattern on our disc and compare it to the AVS disc. They are both full screen white patterns that blink.

I will say that the contrast pattern on the HQV 2.0 is completely wrong. The levels don't match the text on screen and the pattern itself is clipped.

I don't see any changes in the banding. The only thing I see is the 2 ends get a llittle whiter or less white. My HC3800 does not have any iris. With the contrast set to 21, the last bar I see(barely) is 237. With my contrast setting of 13, the last bar I see(barely) is 252. There has to be a way I can get the proper contrast setting on this thing. With the AVS709 test patterns, I get 20 for contrast, and 6 for brightness. With your disc, I get 13 for contrast(if I'm doing it right) and (-4) for brightness. With THX, I get the same as with the AVS disc. So I have a difference of 7 clicks for contrast, and 10 for brightness. Thanks.
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post #639 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 07:48 AM
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Jim,

Which version of the AVS disc are you using? The AVCHD or the BDMV? I will take a look at the levels in them this week. Can you also verify which patterns? I assume black level clipping and white level clipping are the two you are looking at. One last AVS question, 1.3b?

Which THX disc and which pattern? I don't remember any THX patterns that go all the way out to 254. I thought they stopped at 235.
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post #640 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Jim,

Which version of the AVS disc are you using? The AVCHD or the BDMV? I will take a look at the levels in them this week. Can you also verify which patterns? I assume black level clipping and white level clipping are the two you are looking at. One last AVS question, 1.3b?

Which THX disc and which pattern? I don't remember any THX patterns that go all the way out to 254. I thought they stopped at 235.

The AVS version is AVCHD. I'm using the Black Clipping and White Clipping patterns. The main menu page of the AVS disc says version 1.3. Does that mean I need the 1.3b version? I used THX Opt. from "The Incredibles".
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post #641 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Well, it still seems that RGB video is the best color space with the Oppo and the AE4000. There may be extra conversions going on with this setting, but the difference I see in the Chroma pattern when ging from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 is drastic.....and the difference when going from 4:2:2 is noticeable. I cannot see any other ill effects from using RGB video.....so I am using RGB video for now.

The contrast pattern has a very smooth grayscale....smoother than on my Pio 5090 plasma. The shadow detail is also better on the AE4000 than on the Pio 5090. So far very pleased with the Oppo and AE4000 combo.

I posted this in the digital projectors under 3k forum, Panny AE4000 convergence issue. THere seems to be an issue with some "ghosting" as some are labeling it in test patterns. I don't know if it is relevant or if what you are seeing with the AE4000 is based on what is coming from the Oppo so RBG is better?? I could force RBG Full from my PS3, but isn't that incorrect for BDs? I thought BD's were supposed to be output in YCbCr?
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post #642 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I posted this in the digital projectors under 3k forum, Panny AE4000 convergence issue. THere seems to be an issue with some "ghosting" as some are labeling it in test patterns. I don't know if it is relevant or if what you are seeing with the AE4000 is based on what is coming from the Oppo so RBG is better?? I could force RBG Full from my PS3, but isn't that incorrect for BDs? I thought BD's were supposed to be output in YCbCr?

No. Blu-ray is recorded using YCbCr 4:2:0, just like DVD. This has to be chroma upsampled to YCbCr 4:4:4 and then converted to RGB before it can be displayed. This last step happens in the display if no where else.

I don't what their ghosting can refer to.

-Bill
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post #643 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 06:01 PM
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What always has me perplexed, is how the CS is converted to RGB in the final stage no matter what... for both dvd and BD, correct?

So I always am of the opinion that since that is the case, then why not just send RGB from the player to begin with.
However, I also heard that some displays will take the RGB and convert it back to a different CS and then back to RGB again.

Can these conversions actually be detrimental to the PQ, or are they simple conversions that shouldn't have any bearing on PQ.
I would think that since players like the OPPO BD players acually give you the choice to choose different CSs, then maybe the potential for picture degradation IS there, otherwise why would they offer anything other than 4:4:4?

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post #644 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

What always has me perplexed, is how the CS is converted to RGB in the final stage no matter what... for both dvd and BD, correct?

Yes.

Quote:
So I always am of the opinion that since that is the case, then why not just send RGB from the player to begin with.
However, I also heard that some displays will take the RGB and convert it back to a different CS and then back to RGB again.

I've heard that, too.

Quote:
Can these conversions actually be detrimental to the PQ, or are they simple conversions that shouldn't have any bearing on PQ.

They are simple formulae; you can see them in the wikipedia if you look into color spaces. Also, bear in mind the color info we are dealing with is pretty crude. There are fewer than 256 slots for each channel. Converting between color spaces is just deriving a new set of channels with the same number of slots. This is not fine machinery, more like rough cut stone blocks.

And because of chroma subsampling, the color we get out is only approximately the same as what went in even if there were no conversions at all. That's the standard: the image has only 1/4 the chroma info as compared to the total resolution; the final pixels are all interpolated.

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I would think that since players like the OPPO BD players acually give you the choice to choose different CSs, then maybe the potential for picture degradation IS there, otherwise why would they offer anything other than 4:4:4?

Mainly because displays, AVRs and video processors have shown a persistent tendency to do the wrong thing. A choice of color spaces gives us at least a chance of finding a selection that the rest of the gear knows how to use.

There is also a trick some gear can play with 4:2:2. Bob Pariseau explains this in the BDP-83 FAQ.

-Bill
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post #645 of 1210 Old 03-20-2010, 08:10 PM
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Thanks Bill. I'll check out Bob's comments in your FAQ.

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post #646 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 06:16 AM
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There is definatitely no set in stone standard for how every display will handle color spaces....so as Stacy Spears said....just experiment. The Oppo is a great machine becauase it allows us to do that experimentation.

With the AE4000, RGB video produces the best chroma patterns. I belive the AE4000 accepts RGB video CS and will display it without further conversion because.....
How can we explain the degraded test pattern when I send it 4:4:4? If the AE4000 was converting RGB video back to 4:4:4 then back to RGB video again, then I shouldn't see a difference in the patterns. I am assuning that the Oppo is not at fault here.
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post #647 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 07:34 AM
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How can we explain the degraded test pattern when I send it 4:4:4? If the AE4000 was converting RGB video back to 4:4:4 then back to RGB video again, then I shouldn't see a difference in the patterns.

It might assume that the incomming video is from a PC and send it through a different path. My 30" computer LCD does this. Are different picture controls enabled when you send in YCbCr vs. RGB?
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post #648 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 08:17 AM
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Stacey, when will the color space article be available???
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post #649 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

There is definatitely no set in stone standard for how every display will handle color spaces
...
How can we explain the degraded test pattern when I send it 4:4:4?

Well there are standards, perhaps you mean there's not much motivation for companies to follow those standards.

Regarding the degradation; as Stacey implies the only conclusion you can draw is the obvious one -- different video transforms are applied to RGB versus YCC inputs. It's been proposed on multiple occasions that even though all displays need RGB at the end of the pipeline the VP may work in YCC. My display has different "errors" depending both on the input colorspace and specific panel settings.
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post #650 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 10:06 AM
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I hope we can get it done some time in April. A bunch of the example images for the article have been created.
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post #651 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

The AVS version is AVCHD. I'm using the Black Clipping and White Clipping patterns. The main menu page of the AVS disc says version 1.3. Does that mean I need the 1.3b version? I used THX Opt. from "The Incredibles".

Stacey, these answer your questions.
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post #652 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 03:17 PM
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Jim, yes they do. I will be looking at the disc one day this week.
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post #653 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 04:12 PM
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I checked the HDMV version of the AVS709 disc and it is correct.
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post #654 of 1210 Old 03-22-2010, 08:43 PM
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I should have the Panasonic 3D BD player on Friday. I will try the AVS discs in it and see if the results are any different than our disc. I get the same resuts with both on the OPPO into my display.
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post #655 of 1210 Old 03-23-2010, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

It might assume that the incomming video is from a PC and send it through a different path. My 30" computer LCD does this. Are different picture controls enabled when you send in YCbCr vs. RGB?

I don't see any differnce in the video controls available. The Oppo also has an RGC PC color space setting. But the AE4000 may still interpret RGB video as a PC signal. I can say that the brightness and contrast settings didn't need any adjustents going from 4:2:2 to RGb video color space.
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post #656 of 1210 Old 03-28-2010, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post

Never mind my above post. I searched through this thread and found it acceptable to adjust contrast on the OPPO when using 36 bit deep color. gearguy77 did the same with his pioneer 5020 as I did with my 5020. (page 7 of this thread) It seems like the 5020 does have some clipping issues and adjusting the contrast down a few notches on the OPPO does produce much cleaner contrast ramps and also eliminates the color clipping problems with the color clipping patterns. I would not have thought a -2 notch contrast adjustment on the OPPO would produce such significant changes on all of those patterns, while doing the same on the Pioneer had little impact. I will watch a movie tonight to see if i notice any real change. I would think it is going to be subtle as the color bars were spot on in movie mode before and after adjusting the OPPO.

My PIO 5020 is obviously the same way with the Oppo. I found that reducing the players contrast -2 made all the relative test patterns look nearly perfect; otherwise the clipping was very obvious. Lowering the displays contrast less than 40 showed no discernible difference. Interestingly, putting the contrast past 42 shows no visible difference in light output. 42 looks like 50, but at 42 the clipping definitely gets worse.
In the clipping test with the colored boxes, it's pretty bad. I can't barely make out anything, but changing the oppo to -1 or -2 makes it look just right.

I also found for brightness, the best setting was negative -1 on the display, plus 1 on the player. Moving the display up 1 to zero and keeping the Oppo at zero didn't look nearly as good on the test patterns. Using the pluge low pattern -1 is clearly the right setting, but when you look at pluge high or the contrast test my -1 setting makes it almost impossible to see boxes 18,19, and even 20. If I bump the oppo plus 1 for brightness the test patterns look great.

That said, I am not comfortable changing the player settings, even with it set to 36 bit color. I just don't like the idea of "altering" the source and have decided to work within the limitations of my display. I will have to do some more comparisons to be sure, but my inclination is that the image is more appealing to me by NOT adjusting the controls in the oppo, and it may even be more accurate within the limitations of the display.

Sharpness is always a tough one to set for me. I just can't ever seem to tell when the artificating starts. It's obvious when it's there(ie. at zero), but did it start at -1, -8, -15? I can't tell. I get right up on the screen, use the "before" and "after" feature on the display, and I just can't tell. Most people's pro calibration reports put it around -12 to -8, so I go with something in there, but I sure wish I could set it better.

For color, I had originally used a colorimeter when I first got the display and found 0 or +1 resulted in the lowest average delta Es. I tried to use the color filters and they did nothing to deter me from that conclusion.

Tint's always been at zero. With my objective measurements and slightly more subjective color filter, it seems accurate.

Anyway, great test disk. I love the layout of it and it's ease of use.
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post #657 of 1210 Old 03-29-2010, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jesyjames View Post

My PIO 5020 is obviously the same way with the Oppo. I found that reducing the players contrast -2 made all the relative test patterns look nearly perfect; otherwise the clipping was very obvious. Lowering the displays contrast less than 40 showed no discernible difference. Interestingly, putting the contrast past 42 shows no visible difference in light output. 42 looks like 50, but at 42 the clipping definitely gets worse.
In the clipping test with the colored boxes, it's pretty bad. I can't barely make out anything, but changing the oppo to -1 or -2 makes it look just right.

I also found for brightness, the best setting was negative -1 on the display, plus 1 on the player. Moving the display up 1 to zero and keeping the Oppo at zero didn't look nearly as good on the test patterns. Using the pluge low pattern -1 is clearly the right setting, but when you look at pluge high or the contrast test my -1 setting makes it almost impossible to see boxes 18,19, and even 20. If I bump the oppo plus 1 for brightness the test patterns look great.

That said, I am not comfortable changing the player settings, even with it set to 36 bit color. I just don't like the idea of "altering" the source and have decided to work within the limitations of my display. I will have to do some more comparisons to be sure, but my inclination is that the image is more appealing to me by NOT adjusting the controls in the oppo, and it may even be more accurate within the limitations of the display.

Sharpness is always a tough one to set for me. I just can't ever seem to tell when the artificating starts. It's obvious when it's there(ie. at zero), but did it start at -1, -8, -15? I can't tell. I get right up on the screen, use the "before" and "after" feature on the display, and I just can't tell. Most people's pro calibration reports put it around -12 to -8, so I go with something in there, but I sure wish I could set it better.

For color, I had originally used a colorimeter when I first got the display and found 0 or +1 resulted in the lowest average delta Es. I tried to use the color filters and they did nothing to deter me from that conclusion.

Tint's always been at zero. With my objective measurements and slightly more subjective color filter, it seems accurate.

Anyway, great test disk. I love the layout of it and it's ease of use.

Thanks for you description of this issue. In the end I did not alter the settings of my OPPO. After watching several movies, my calibrated settings for movie mode on the my 5020 produced the best picture in my eyes. Per instructions of DNice, I also downloaded the AVS HD 709 calibration software and burned it on a dvd. That software showed me that my 5020 was not clipping, and no adjustments were needed on the OPPO. As far as sharpness, that's a little tougher. With my nose close to screen, the artifacts disappear around -10 on my 5020.

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post #658 of 1210 Old 04-02-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

If it does not occur when you change patterns, it may just be some odd interaction with the internal menu of the display.

While viewing the contrast pattern, press the left arrow. That should take you to the previous pattern w/o using the disc menu. The press the right arrow to go back.

Also trying using the up arrow to display help and then down arrow to get rid of it and see if that is OK. If both are ok, and you have a smoother ramp in the middle, use that setting.

I was also thinking it might be some sort of dynamic contrast.

Know it's been a minute lol, but I'm the guy that had the contrast issue (bars disappearing when opening my TV's menu)

I can now confirm that changing between patterns does indeed cause the same issue. Now I'm definitely stumped.

Because theoretically, my player is pausing and then switching patterns (a stop-> start motion). This, to me, would imply leaving it on a higher setting for regular viewing because the movie is always playing, and not stopping and starting.

However, I don't know if it's limited to such a case or if it would also cause problems in images already in motion... I'm guessing it wouldn't or the pattern with the flashing bars should cause the same behavior by themselves, but they don't.

Also, between a contrast setting of 27 and 28, 28 definitely has the smoother ramp. 29 has a smoother ramp for that matter, but causes the rightmost 4 or 5 bars to clip.

Keep in mind, at no point does every single bar disappear. It never clips anything in the reference 16-234 range (at least not with the settings I've played with... I'm sure if I set the contrast to 40, I wouldn't be able to see anything... even if it was just because my eyes were bleeding )
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post #659 of 1210 Old 04-02-2010, 06:50 PM
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I can't figure out the contrast test either. Is there another test pattern on this disc I can use to set contrast? Other than the one labeled "contrast"? Thanks.
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post #660 of 1210 Old 04-02-2010, 06:59 PM
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However, I don't know if it's limited to such a case or if it would also cause problems in images already in motion...

I think it is the sudden change in picture level. Your display probably has some type of contrast feature that can't be disabled that is causing this. Does the same thing occur on the Dynamic Range High pattern?

Jim,

You can also use the clipping pattern. Its not as granular as contrast. You can even use the Dynamic Range High pattern, but it should produce identical results to the Contrast.

I recently ran into an interesting issue with a dynamic IRIS in the Samsung SP-A800B and SP-A900B. Contrast was set using the Contrast pattern and nothing was clipping. I was then watching a scene and some white bricks were blown out. It was odd. I would bring up the menu on the DVDO and the detail would return. At first I thought it was the DVDO. Eventually I figured out it was the dynamic IRIS. The detail returns when the IRIS was turned off. I no longer use it.
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