"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1210 Old 07-27-2010, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Both DVD and Blu-ray are 8-bit 4:2:0 with a range from 1-254. Reference black is at 16 and reference white is at 235, with values above and below. When the OPPO is set to YCbCr 4:4:4, this is what you get. Have you read the Color Space article yet to ensure 4:4:4 is the best choice?

Bottom line, Your calibration is OK.


Wow thanks for the quick response.

Yeah I read the colour space article, however I was still confused with the gamma. I couldn't see any difference between standard and enhanced on Gamma, but it did sound fesable to me that it could get screwed.

Thanks for confirming. I won't change

Ta

Dono
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post #722 of 1210 Old 08-27-2010, 08:36 AM
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Hello S&M,

I just received your disc in the mail and I thought, hey I should also get the DVD, just incase. However I can't find it on your site. Can you help?

TF
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post #723 of 1210 Old 08-27-2010, 08:40 AM
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We only offer a Blu-ray disc at this time.
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post #724 of 1210 Old 10-02-2010, 12:49 AM
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Wow. I just got through reading the WHOLE thread and I am tired.
And since I don't have an OPPO, I guess I am missing out on some terminology.
I have a PS3, Panasonic BD-605 (Sam's/Costco version of the 60), and a Panasonic Plasma 42pzou.
And after reading the whole thread PLUS the articles on the website AND listening to the podcast, I still don't have a clue how to send 4444 and 4424 and 4222 on these. I have an older OPPO DVD player that does however have these settings but that doesn't really help.
Are there terminology equivalents for some other common devices? My best guesses:
PS3: RGB = 4444?
YPBPR = 4222?
Panasonic Blu Ray player: RGB (only choice) = 4444?
Panasonic Plasma: no color space settings


And I would like to thank Kris Deering and TJ Norton (Kris wrote, TJ comented) from Hometheatermag for their great article last year on this disc. I have an older Olevia lcd where everything set perfectly with all the bars showing on the contrast pattern and still plenty of brightness to watch the TV by.
However, with all bars showing on the Panny Plasma the picture was so dim even my wife said "The picture looks great but everything looks like it's in the shade."
I thought I did something wrong and wondered if it was even worth it to have it "accurate" if I could not enjoy it being this dark. And then my ears perked up when I read this:
Quote:


To set your contrast properly, you should retain all of the head room in the Contrast test pattern, meaning you should see the stripes all the way up to digital 253. But I realize that some people season to taste. We don't recommend that you set your display's contrast any higher than clipping at digital 240. You should also keep an eye on banding when you set the contrast. You can't get the full picture by simply looking at the clip points. To make sure there's no banding in the gray scale, look at some clips above and below the clip point you choose. A lower clip point (say, 240) provides a bit more contrast and light output at the expense of overall accuracy. [In theory, there should be no information above a digital value of 235 in your program material, so clipping slightly above that figure should have no negative consequences. In practice, some programs do have information above that level. Nevertheless, count me among those who often find it too conservative to extend the clipping level to above 240, particularly with projectors that need extra brightness.TJN]

This did it for me!!! Bar 242 seems to be the magic number.
And I now can see so much more detail. I had thought previously that you were supposed to get contrast as high as possible without clipping 235. I have since found out with this disc that my TV will not clip 235 until a 90 something out of 100. That means my TV has been guzzling power this whole past year with an 85 contrast setting instead of the "more correct" (not completely but I can deal with it) 49 setting. Spears and Munsil has lowered my power bill also!!!

I bought this disc last year originally after reading that article and ran through the patterns and test clips without really knowing what I was doing.
I just realized recently that you could push the directional button UP to get a description of the patterns. Shows how well I read instructions.
And since I thought everything was already set correctly with the AVSHD dvd (which I still find a bit easier to use their blinking tint and color pattern for colors although I'm not sure it is as accurate as SpearsMunsil but still looks great), the disc has just been sitting there on my shelf with DVE since then.
My interest came back after reading article after article in Hometheater Mag and Widescreen Review as it being the definitive "Torture disc/ Testing disc" for new players/TVs/etc and how they stand up to it, so I pulled it back out and now I am glad I did.

But I am still confused on some of the color space stuff.
The Panasonic Blu ray player passed most of the tests to the plasma.
The PS3 seemed to pass more tests with RGB than with YPbPr, although they both looked about the same when watching a movie.
However, PS3 RGB will not show WTW and BTB in any way that I know of other than the NOT recommended "full" setting.
So I am using the Panny player instead of PS3 since the TV seems to like to be fed RGB better. But I may be completely wrong and backwards on all of this. Either way I am very happy with the overall picture.

Earlier I was reading about a guy having trouble when reading this disc in a PS3 and I thought "poor guy. that must really suck."
Now I am having the same type issue. Any one figured out how to get around that one?
It was playing fine the first few times I used it although it did seem to hang up on some patterns, but now it ALWAYS freezes up on the contrast pattern and wont even show the sharpness pattern. Sometimes now it is freezing on the menu and I can select a pattern towards the end of the list and hit the back directional button until I get to the patterns I need. But once I get to the contrast, the only way out is the back button (red circle?) then choose yes to "are you sure you wanna stop playing disc." And then occasionally I have to eject and then re-insert the disc to play it. Kind of weird.
Plays just fine in the Panasonic although now it makes a noise on some of those same patterns. My wife asked it it was a "rattle check"
But once again I don't even know how to turn off the PIP comments boxes that pop up in the movie "Sunshine" since they seem to come on automatically on the PS3 with this movie and not the Panasonic.
If it is just my disc I will just order another one. Just wondering if it was something I was doing to save the trouble.

Once again, this disc is great and I think every one should own one. Especially all the people who have asked me over to set up their TVs and then accidentally hit "default settings" and asked me to come back!
At least I know the best way to set their contrast now.
I look forward to anything by these two in the future.

Phil Fritts,
Birmingham, AL
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post #725 of 1210 Old 10-02-2010, 10:09 AM
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Hi Phil,

I will try and answer all of your questions. If I miss one, please ask again.

Both RGB and YCbCr 4:4:4 are 4:4:4, but when we say 4:4:4, we mean YCbCr 4:4:4.

RGB
YCbCr 4:4:4
YCbCr 4:2:2

When people talk about 16 and 235, they are talking about the YCbCr space. You don't actually view in that space, you view in RGB. Values between 16 and 235, in YCbCr, can produce values outside of 16 and 235 when properly converted to RGB. I think this is the number one confusion today. I feel this is something we need to work on explaining better. All content has values above 235 in RGB. They are usually found in specular highlights. By clipping them, you are shifting the hue of those pixels. It may or may not be noticable. My display is calibrated to display up to 255 in RGB and 254 in YCbCr.

There is an option in your PS3 called Superwhite. If you enable this, you should see all of the levels on the white bar.

The PS3 was the Blu-ray player used during development. If you are having trouble with the disc in the PS3, it may be caused by a recent FW update or something is wrong with the disc. You should be able to get it exchanged if that is the case. There is no reason to buy another copy. Where did you purchase it from?
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post #726 of 1210 Old 10-04-2010, 06:34 PM
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Thanks Mr. Spears! It is extremely cool that you guys are on here answering questions about your product.

I have come to a conclusion - no matter how confused I may be about the different color spaces - that I only need to know that there are different ones that may or may not work better with a specific display device. Eureka.

Before this disc I never realized that the setings were even there. Now I do and I can tell with the tests that one outperforms the other with my TV and that is the one I should use.

Quote:


There is an option in your PS3 called Superwhite. If you enable this, you should see all of the levels on the white bar.

I have it enabled and can see the flashing bars just fine on YCbCr, but as soon as I change it to RGB, it immediately turns white at and above 235.

So I thought, well RGB must only show 16-235 by default in "limited", so maybe I can turn it to "full" to get all the numbers, calibrate it, and then set it back to the recommended "limited."

When I turn RGB from "limited" to "full" - it gets really weird and ALL the bars dissapear.
I think I may need to find the PS3 forum for this one or figure what else I may be doing wrong.
However, the Panasonic BD player shows BTB and WTW in RGB, which seems to be the only color space for this one. Good thing it works.

Quote:


The PS3 was the Blu-ray player used during development. If you are having trouble with the disc in the PS3, it may be caused by a recent FW update or something is wrong with the disc. You should be able to get it exchanged if that is the case. There is no reason to buy another copy. Where did you purchase it from?

It's more than likely an update since it worked before. I'm not even sure where I bought it. I think the site directed me to Amazon where I buy most of my stuff anyways. I'm thinking about ordering a couple more of them as gifts for the holidays. I know a couple of people who could definitely use them.

Thanks again for the great disc and the help. You can be assured that there will be word-of-mouth sales from me!

-Phil
Birmingham, AL

p.s. I just thought of something. I know that technically there isn't supposed to be anything visible by standard above 235 - but there is.
Do they sometimes put things in below 16-17 that one would miss by properly setting brightness?
And if they do - is it best to set the brightness for the best blacks and forget that stuff that may show below?
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post #727 of 1210 Old 10-04-2010, 07:24 PM
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that I only need to know that there are different ones that may or may not work better with a specific display device. Eureka.

Great point! We provide some background information, but in the end, you don't need to understand the background to know there may be a difference in your system. You just need to know how to identify and select the best possible choice.

We recently found a new color space problem. So far we have identified one Blu-ray player and one video processor (line of processors) that exhibit the problem. We are currently working on a test pattern to identify the problem. Always something new to learn!

Quote:


I just thought of something. I know that technically there isn't supposed to be anything visible by standard above 235

As I mentioned above, when they talk about 235, they are talking about YCbCr. Once you convert to RGB, you end up with lots of pixels above 235. Here are a few examples. Hot pink is >235 and green is <16. Many of these pixels are 16-235 in YCbCr and fall outside of that range when converted to RGB.









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post #728 of 1210 Old 10-07-2010, 06:59 PM
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since you have worked closely with oppo. what are your thoughts on the new 93 that is going to be released? will your disc be released with the new player?

Jacob
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post #729 of 1210 Old 10-07-2010, 08:54 PM
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We have not seen the BDP-93 as of yet. We have not spoken with them about our disc in the new player.
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post #730 of 1210 Old 10-24-2010, 12:08 PM
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Thanks for showing me that. I had no idea that they showed that much below and above. But it's still reccomended to only extend the whiter than whites and NOT the blacker than blacks, correct?

I would rater my TV have the darkest black I can and just miss some of that.

I think I read earlier that "red push" can mess up using the blue filter to set up color.
My tv is know for having this issue, although not bad. I set my colors and they seem great.
Is red push keeping it from being accurate even though it seems just fine?

-Phil
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post #731 of 1210 Old 10-24-2010, 12:25 PM
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But it's still reccomended to only extend the whiter than whites and NOT the blacker than blacks, correct?

That is correct. When you calibrate using the white pattern, you are really protecting for RGB. In YCbCr almost all of the picture information is between 16/235 (240 for CbCr). It is when you convert to RGB that you end up with values above 235. Let me say that again, YCbCr 16-235 produces values in RGB that are above 235. This is the key point that most people miss.
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post #732 of 1210 Old 10-24-2010, 07:46 PM
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Wow I actually used the color cropping test and now my almost two year old plasma looks like never before!
This disc keeps getting better and better.

I had assumed that only the reds were clipped because this TV is known for "red push."
I went back and re-read the test descriptions for color cropping and decided that maybe I needed to lower the contrast a bit to see if it would show any boxes inside.

I was the one in a few posts back who decided that showing ALL the WTW bars on the contrast pattern made my TV look too dim and that I would use Home Theater Mag's suggestion that some devices would be fine at 240 for the extra brightness, yet still show some above 235.
Using the pattern, it moved my Contrast setting from 47 to 42 and was the perfect setting to show all the boxes in all the colors.
And there is still plenty brightness at that setting even though it shows almost all the bars in the contrast pattern now. Just not as dark as I had them the first time when it looked so dim.
What is weird is that now that I have changed all this, my TV is showing details that I have never seen before. It is like it doubled the resolution.
I figured it was just clipping red details on the screen, but when I lowered contrast to see the red - more detail showed up in EVERYTHING.
Maybe this is why a lot of highly rated PIXAR type movies didn't impress me so much on my TV but would look stunning on someone elses?
Is this normal?

Another great thing about this disc is that I have helped a couple of people who weren't too happy with their TVs really like them now.
I visited my dad and was able to tell that the "16:9" setting on his remote was cropping a lot of the picture and that "just scan" was the better option and gave him his full picture. And after I set the color and brightness and contrast he said it looked like what he thought he was paying for to begin with.
And it turns out that the Sharpness setting actually did do something. I could not tell with some other discs I had.
I work for Sam's club and think that a lot of those returned TV's I see in the back probably wouldn't be there if they had a disc like this to set it up. (And if they didn't run a 480 cable box to a 1080p tv!)

I can't wait to see what else I will learn from this disc that will make movie watching even that much better!

-Phil
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post #733 of 1210 Old 10-24-2010, 09:08 PM
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Phil,

Quote:


Maybe this is why a lot of highly rated PIXAR type movies didn't impress me so much on my TV but would look stunning on someone elses?

3D animations contain the most RGB values above 235. I have dumped data from several Pixar films and they are consistent.

I have a Panasonic VT20 3D plasma and I think I set contrast around 42 and brightness around 73. Also had to use 4:2:2 for the best image quality. This was for 2D mode. I have different settings for 3D mode, since it is a different memory and they have to compensate for the 3D glasses.

Thank you for the feedback.
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post #734 of 1210 Old 10-27-2010, 02:33 PM
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Out of curiosity, do you and Mr. Munsil calibrate your TV's all the way - with the instruments and all, just the disc, or a combo of the two?

The reason I ask is that I noticed that a lot of pro calibrators list your disc as one of their "go to" tools. The magazines included.

This is from Chris Eberle's blog about calibrating on the tools he uses: "Equipment used: EyeOne Pro spectrophotometer, CalMAN Professional 3.3 analysis software, Accupel HDG-3000 signal generator, Spears & Munsil Benchmark Blu-ray."

-Phil
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post #735 of 1210 Old 10-27-2010, 02:38 PM
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Out of curiosity, do you and Mr. Munsil calibrate your TV's all the way - with the instruments and all, just the disc, or a combo of the two?

A combo of the two. My display has five built-in patterns. A full red, green, blue, white, and a second white. You measure the first four and write down the x,y,Y values. Then you input those values into the service menu and it calibrates itself. This includes grayscale, gamma, and color primaries. You then measure the second white to make sure it is good-to-go. The first four disable the built-in CMS system and the final has the CMS enable to verify the results.

I use a Minolta CL-200 for the measurement. We also have a custom gamma app that will measure every level from 0-255 and plot a gamma curve. This is done using a Minolta LS-100. We also have CalMAN, which I will use on the VT20 at some point.
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post #736 of 1210 Old 11-01-2010, 02:10 PM
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I wish the average human had access to professional calibration technology, even if you could just rent it out.
Those types of instruments cost more than ALL of my home theater equipment
I thought about getting the more affordable CALMAN/X2 package because I know it should be more accurate than me, but how accuate can a $200 meter do compared with a reference one?
I'll probably get it anyways since this disc has made me become so fascinated with calibration. And CALMAN just seems so cool.

A question about the "clipping" pattern:
Are the colors being clipped in the area that you are not supposed to see, but do (like the whiter than whites) - or is this in the regular viewing area?
My red was clipped and I had to bring the contrast down to show all of the concentric boxes.
The picture looks great, but now my TV is on the verge of being a little too dim again (even in a dark room).
I am trying to get it to the highest it can be without missing out on important color info.
If I were to raise contrast until just some of the boxes or just the outer big ones showed up, would that still be losing too much info?
On my lcd, both blue and green were clipped and it was no problem bringing down contrast until all boxes showed with plenty of brightness left.
I know you would normally recommend to show all boxes for accuracies's sake (I like everything to be correct also), but I am having to find a comfortable balance between the two.

Once again - thank you for being patient with me and for all of your help.
I have always just put in a calibration disc, set the controls, and left it that way.
With this disc I have found out that there is a lot more going on.

-Phil
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post #737 of 1210 Old 11-01-2010, 02:51 PM
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Are the colors being clipped in the area that you are not supposed to see, but do (like the whiter than whites) - or is this in the regular viewing area?

In YCbCr, the R, G, and B boxes all fall within the 16-235 (240 for CbCr) range. They fall outside of that range when converted to RGB. They should be visible. They respresent specular highlights. All of the hot pink pixels, in the sample images above, fall between 16-235 (240 for CbCr) in YCbCr.

Its a bigger deal if the RGB boxes clip than if the white box clips.

It is possible that the red gain is too high, which is causing red to clip sooner. With a good white balance they all tend to clip at the same time. It is also possible it is clipped because color is set high, or the decoder is not correct.

Display manufacteres are not trying to produce an accurate image. They want it bright and colorful, because that is what catches your eye.
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post #738 of 1210 Old 11-08-2010, 08:03 PM
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It is possible that the red gain is too high

According to the reviews on this tv, this seems to be the case. Lowering contrast did the trick.
Nice to know that I am finally seeing everything correctly. I wonder if greyscale adjustment can correct red push. No calibrators in my area that I know of. Not a great big deal, it's still a great picture.

Out of curiosity, when just one color is clipped - like red in this case - does that mean that I will be losing only other red colors or MANY other colors since a display uses red, green, and blue to make ALL colors?
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post #739 of 1210 Old 11-09-2010, 09:44 AM
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I wonder if greyscale adjustment can correct red push.

Red push is actually a different issue. Or at least what people often call red push is caused in the color space conversion process.

Normally you want to set contrast to avoid clipping. Perform a grayscale calibration/white balance, and then revisit contrast to see if it needs to be turned up or down again. The controls interact with each other.
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post #740 of 1210 Old 11-09-2010, 07:45 PM
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Red push is actually a different issue. Or at least what people often call red push is caused in the color space conversion process.
Thanks. Did not know that. Thought it just meant that the TV naturally had it's foot on the red pedal.

Let me see if I can word this correctly.
Red, green, and blue make all the thousands/millions colors that we see on a TV.
When the TV is clipping Red - is that affecting any other colors?
Or is it just affecting Red itself?
Or do TVs even work this way?
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post #741 of 1210 Old 11-09-2010, 07:46 PM
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When the TV is clipping Red - is that affecting any other colors?
Yes, it can cause a hue shift on those pixels that are clipped.
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post #742 of 1210 Old 11-14-2010, 04:18 PM
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I used your disc on a Toshiba 47ZV650 tv. All went well except setting contrast. All the white bars were visible at any contrast setting and they all flashed. The white and RGB boxes all showed some concentric boxes. Lowering contrast made the more distinct. After playing, I am starting to believe contrast is a "visual adjustment", not instrument based. Or I may be frustrated.
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post #743 of 1210 Old 11-14-2010, 06:23 PM
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I am starting to believe contrast is a "visual adjustment", not instrument based.

Both brightness and contrast are a visual adjustment. If you can turn contrast all the way without clipping, then turn it all the way up.

If you have not done so, look at the center of the Contrast pattern. The ramp from black to white to black. That should be a smooth gradient. On my Samsung projector is it really smooth. On my Panasonic Plasma, it is a mess. Go through your contrast range and see if it changes. If so, select the setting that produces the smoothest ramp/gradient.
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post #744 of 1210 Old 11-15-2010, 10:35 AM
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Thank you. I checked the ramps and found a setting that looks good. I use a LG 390 BD player and have read that it crushes whites with factory settings but does not if you use the user settings. Should I play with these or leave them alone?
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post #745 of 1210 Old 11-15-2010, 10:37 AM
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I use a LG 390 BD player and have read that it crushes whites with factory settings but does not if you use the user settings.

If you see all of the bars on the bottom of the contrast pattern, then nothing is being crushed. It may also occur based on color space output from player.
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post #746 of 1210 Old 11-16-2010, 08:51 AM
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I tried anther attempt at contrast last night in a darkened room. Again, brightness, color and tint were very easy to set. Contrast has me stumped. All the white bars flash and are visible at any contrast setting. The ramps only look bad at settings of 0-40 on a scale of 100 with no real differences above 40. The BD390 only outputs RGB or YCbCr. It specifies YCbCr to HDMI devices.
Does this mean that the TV will not clip whites at any contrast setting? Should I just set contrast for an appealing picture? Thank you.
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post #747 of 1210 Old 11-16-2010, 08:55 AM
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I would set contrast to 100 if nothing is clipping. I wonder if this is really a contrast control and not a backlight.
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post #748 of 1210 Old 11-16-2010, 12:16 PM
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The control says contrast. There is a separate backlight control. Unless they are reversed.
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post #749 of 1210 Old 11-16-2010, 03:21 PM
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Hey y'all.
Just got the Spears and Munsil Blue Ray Disc. I tried to use it, but I am in way over my head. I have no idea what I'm doing even after reading the instructions and looking at the example patterns. I don't know which controls I should be tweaking. And then when I tried to read this forum I just got even more confused.

So... My question for the group is:
Is there a definitive source from which to get good information on the subject of LCD TV calibration? I have Samsung LN46C750.

And my questions for Spears and Munsil is:
When I use the Pluge patterns to set the brightness, I can more easily tell when the bars disappear by viewing the LCD set from off angle. Is that a bad way to do the test? Should I do it from straight on? And will changing the "backlight level" affect the desired level of "brightness"? How do I reconcile the two?

Thanks!
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post #750 of 1210 Old 11-16-2010, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcredheart View Post
Hey y'all.
Just got the Spears and Munsil Blue Ray Disc. I tried to use it, but I am in way over my head. I have no idea what I'm doing even after reading the instructions and looking at the example patterns. I don't know which controls I should be tweaking. And then when I tried to read this forum I just got even more confused.

So... My question for the group is:
Is there a definitive source from which to get good information on the subject of LCD TV calibration? I have Samsung LN46C750.

And my questions for Spears and Munsil is:
When I use the Pluge patterns to set the brightness, I can more easily tell when the bars disappear by viewing the LCD set from off angle. Is that a bad way to do the test? Should I do it from straight on? And will changing the "backlight level" affect the desired level of "brightness"? How do I reconcile the two?

Thanks!
The S&M website has articles with examples. Start with those.

There is a calibration forum with much useful info, although some of it is geared toward professionals.

I would not sit off angle. Use the same position and environment you view from.

I think of backlight as an "environmental" input, like room brightness. Turn it up so that the brightness is pleasing, but not so high that it washes out the blacks. LCDs have better black levels with lower backlight. There is a recommended brightness for backlights but I just wing it.

Then adjust brightness and constrast from there.

-Bill
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