"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1227 Old 01-06-2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I really wish all displays had green only mode

and used the right decoder!

Great information. I'll try the various display modes to see what happens. I probably won't touch the service menu unless I get a professional calibrator to do it. But I'll report back if I learn anything useful.

Thanks again, I appreciate the help.
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post #812 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Try this excersize. Start with each picture mode. Set color and tint, and then look at green only mode on the color bars. See if any mode result in the correct behavior.

Just following up on this. I did try setting color & tint in each picture mode, and with color space set to "auto" and "native" for each, and I tried with xvYCC mode. Same result each time: banding on the "green only" color bars and color clipping on the clipping pattern.

I'll follow up again if I get anywhere with the service menu, though I may not even get around to trying that.

(For anyone interested, this is a Samsung PN50C8000.)
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post #813 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TrawlerJoe View Post

Just following up on this. I did try setting color & tint in each picture mode, and with color space set to "auto" and "native" for each, and I tried with xvYCC mode. Same result each time: banding on the "green only" color bars and color clipping on the clipping pattern.

I'll follow up again if I get anywhere with the service menu, though I may not even get around to trying that.

(For anyone interested, this is a Samsung PN50C8000.)

I'm a little confused. Reading through the color clipping info at spearsandmunsil.com, it looks like the display should be as you are seeing in your last two images. At lease, on my monitor your picture of the clipping squares looks the same as the example on their site for correct clipping.

So how can the squares show properly but the bars be showing improperly? What exactly does that mean?
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post #814 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 10:41 AM
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At lease, on my monitor your picture of the clipping squares looks the same as the example on their site for correct clipping.

From my monitor the green concentric boxes do not contain all of the steps, some are missing. The images on our website contain all of the steps. There should be 6 levels per box like the image I am attaching.



It is possible your monitor is clipping the good image so that they look the same.

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post #815 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

From my monitor the green concentric boxes do not contain all of the steps, some are missing. The images on our website contain all of the steps. There should be 6 levels per box like the image I am attaching.



It is possible your monitor is clipping the good image so that they look the same.

Okay, I should see 6 squares in each box or in each half of each box? I see 4 in each half across all colors and white. I also see a darker bar through the middle of each box that appears to be part of neither side.

Odd, maybe my monitor is off. I don't see the last two steps on the inside of the left half of the squares and see only those on the right side.
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post #816 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 11:42 AM
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See if the larger image helps.


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post #817 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 12:47 PM
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Try lowering your contrast settings, JN99.

Just did that on my 27" lcd monitor and got all the gradations to appear. Before, even the large green box above was a solid, single color for me. Granted, I haven't made any real attemts at calibrating this monitor before.. just eyeballed some adjustments to brightness and contrast settings when I first got the monitor and simply left it at that.

looks like I got a lot more work to do.

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post #818 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 01:59 PM
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I had trouble with red clipping on my Panasonic plasma.
When I went back and turned the "color" setting down one notch - even though it bothered me so badly that the color pattern was no longer set perfect - it gave me a lot more red!
I guess that I had the color set so high that it was actually clipping some red?
What I had been doing because of this was using the "color clipping" pattern on the AVSHD disc to bring contrast down until at least red was visible until AT LEAST the 233-235 bars. My other colors were fine and showed up beautifully on the Spears and Munsil disc and AVSHD higher than 245-250.
But when I turned the color down a notch, it fixed it any ways.
-Phil
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post #819 of 1227 Old 01-12-2011, 02:14 PM
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even though it bothered me so badly that the color pattern was no longer set perfect - it gave me a lot more red!

If you are using a blue filter to set color, then it may not be perfect. Blue filters are not perfect by any means, they just get you close. A blue only mode is more accurate. You can also set color using a good meter with the right patterns.

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post #820 of 1227 Old 01-13-2011, 04:58 AM
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I know the component input and HDMI inputs may not calibrate the same, but for gapes I think I may try using component input to create a blue only and green only mode and apply the setting the my HDMI input to see if it makes it any better or worse (or the same). Last time I used the clipping patterns I can't remember how many boxes I saw using the filters to calibrate - I know they weren't solid.

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post #821 of 1227 Old 01-20-2011, 06:30 AM
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I don't see anything that mentions if this disc has small window window patterns from 0 - 100IRE. Does it?
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post #822 of 1227 Old 01-20-2011, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Double_D864 View Post

I don't see anything that mentions if this disc has small window window patterns from 0 - 100[%]. Does it?

No. It's not a measured calibration disc. AVS-HD (or equivalent) is still required for metered calibration.


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post #823 of 1227 Old 01-20-2011, 07:33 AM
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I don't see anything that mentions if this disc has small window window patterns from 0 - 100IRE. Does it?

No, we limited this disc to something that can be used without a meter.

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post #824 of 1227 Old 01-20-2011, 09:03 AM
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^^^^^
Ok, thanks guys
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post #825 of 1227 Old 01-20-2011, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post


No, we limited this disc to something that can be used without a meter.

Would it be a big deal to include the 0-100 IRE for those who have a meter and want one disc that has it all?

"A city on a hill cannot be hidden..."
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post #826 of 1227 Old 01-20-2011, 08:54 PM
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Would it be a big deal to include the 0-100 IRE for those who have a meter and want one disc that has it all?

First you start with the basic patterns in fields but then the plasma folks want windows and then the C-HCFR/CalMan/ChromaPure folks all want different pattern orders and 2/3/5/9/10/11/21 points and then they want color and then varying luminance and then shazam -- you have AVS-HD.

These ideas came up at the beginning of this thread.


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post #827 of 1227 Old 01-20-2011, 08:58 PM
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First you start with the basic patterns in fields but then the plasma folks want windows and then the C-HCFR/CalMan/ChromaPure folks all want differtent pattern orders and 2/3/5/9/10/11/21 points and then they want color and then varying luminance and then shazam -- you have AVS-HD.

These ideas came up at the beginning of this thread.

Fair enough.

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post #828 of 1227 Old 01-21-2011, 08:30 AM
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We can't add to the existing disc for a number of reasons, most of which would upset everyone who already has the disc. We will include this type of stuff on the disc that we hope to release in Q4 timeframe. We plan to include 3D, audio, and the pro calibration stuff.

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folks all want differtent pattern orders and 2/3/5/9/10/11/21 points and then they want color and then varying luminance

We need to understand what everyone wants and then see what we can deliver. Even with the various points, people might want specific APL values. e.g. 2-point. Some want 30/80 and other want 20/80. I could do a 4-point that is 20, 30, 80, and 100. Then using the left right arrows, you can move between them quickly. You would go back and fourth with 30/80. Or 20/100. A 3-point could be 20/30/80 that one could then move between 20/80 and 30/80.

One thing I do know is that we will not include pop-up help for pro calibration patterns other than to say these are used to set grayscale using a proper measurement device.

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post #829 of 1227 Old 01-21-2011, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

We need to understand what everyone wants and then see what we can deliver.

I'd think identifying the target audience would yield an answer. I suspect that anyone using ChromaPure or CalMan with a disc is going to use AVS-HD because they want to set the white point, gamma and adjust primaries and secondaries so they need all the main patterns. Those two are also the most at odds since they (currently) do gamma in the opposite order and have a different idea about how/when and what order to measure primaries and secondaries.


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post #830 of 1227 Old 01-25-2011, 09:09 AM
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For those interested, the disc is now back in stock on Amazon.

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post #831 of 1227 Old 01-25-2011, 09:23 AM
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For those interested, the disc is now back in stock on Amazon.

Thanks! I grabbed one and am looking forward to getting into it.
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post #832 of 1227 Old 01-25-2011, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Perfect, thank you. See how you can see four distinct bars on the left of the green color bars pattern? If the color decoder was working correctly, it would be one big green bar. (with a litte ringing between each bar) Assuming you have adjusted color and tint using blue only mode, then the color clipping problem is because of the color decoder.

I really wish all displays had green only mode. It makes it easier to debug.

Try this excersize. Start with each picture mode. Set color and tint, and then look at green only mode on the color bars. See if any mode result in the correct behavior.

It may be a case where a service menu adjustment is required to fix the decoder. This is, of course, assumging they still expose the options.

Well, I discovered something interesting while running through the calibration screens again. The blu-ray player has a 24fps setting (on or off), and I've always kept it on. I looked at the color bars with "green only" mode, and saw the same problem as before: four distinct bars. If I turn the 24fps to "off", it's one big green bar as you describe, and the color clipping pattern looks correct! So, either the player or the TV seems to be doing something wrong with 24fps signals. I wish I had another player to test with.

I do have the player connected through a receiver now (my reason for re-checking the calibration screens), but it's set to pass through, so I don't think the receiver is changing anything.

Just thought this was an interesting find.
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post #833 of 1227 Old 01-25-2011, 02:25 PM
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Just thought this was an interesting find.

Thank you for the update. That is a new one!

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post #834 of 1227 Old 01-27-2011, 12:53 PM
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AV Science now has the disc in stock as well. They have updated their store a bit, so here is a direct link. http://shop.avscience.com/High-Defin...Disc_p_23.html

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post #835 of 1227 Old 01-31-2011, 01:42 PM
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Are the "blue only" modes usually only in higher end displays?
It seems like something that manufacturers could easily put in even their lowest of lowliest with no extra expense to them.
I can see how it definitely would help get the colors more accurate than with the hold up decoders, plus with less eye strain.
-Phil
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post #836 of 1227 Old 01-31-2011, 01:44 PM
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Samsung has been putting it into many of their displays for a while. They now have red, green, and blue only modes in their latest displays.

Pro monitors have had blue only mode forever.

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post #837 of 1227 Old 02-02-2011, 12:47 PM
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It's a rare occasion one of my friends asks me a question about an electronic that I can't give a useful answer for... but today I got one that stumped me.

A friend of mine bought the S&M calibration disc at my recommendation, and then asked me a question I really had no certain answer for.

When calibrating contrast and brightness, he is able to see certain shades of the various steps at an angle that he can't see looking straight on.

So... do you adjust brightness/contrast until you can see them head on? Or do you just adjust them until the set displays them, period? This is on an LCD for what its worth.

On one hand what good is having the display show a pattern or shade that you can't see from where you sit? On the other hand, when sitting at an angle from the set in a position other than the ideal location, the patterns are visible, and more than likely more faithfully representing the intended image.

So uhh.... yeah, what do I say here lol. Best I could come up with is adjust them somewhere in the middle; then he kicked my response in the arse, because unfortunately the difference is only one increment in either direction, so there is no middle lol.
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post #838 of 1227 Old 02-02-2011, 01:01 PM
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So... do you adjust brightness/contrast until you can see them head on? Or do you just adjust them until the set displays them, period?

You want to adjust from your viewing position or angle. What your friend experienced is not uncommon, though its usually head on that is the best. Off axis is where issues like this appear.

I think this is an even bigger problem with 3D displays that use passive glasses.

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post #839 of 1227 Old 02-03-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Samsung has been putting it into many of their displays for a while. They now have red, green, and blue only modes in their latest displays.

Pro monitors have had blue only mode forever.

I have a Samsung with blue only mode, and the result I get is a lot different compared to using the patterns and blue filter you provide. The difference is that the Color setting is around 6-8 points higher with blue mode. Further, the lower Color setting I get looks subjectivity better and more importantly, perfectly matches the setting I get using my meter(s).
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post #840 of 1227 Old 02-03-2011, 01:40 PM
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A blue filter only works if there is no bleed through. If you follow the using a blue filter instruction on our website it will explain how to test. This is why we included a 1x, 2x, and 3x mode. We originally did not include a blue filter at all because of our concern about them being unreliable. Enough people complained so we did the best we could. This is why a blue only mode is so important. It is far more accurate most of the time.

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