"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil - Page 41 - AVS Forum
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post #1201 of 1224 Old 06-05-2013, 02:51 PM
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Thank you so much for your quick replay!

Me too, I read that VT50 has a best performance with 4:4:4. But, in this case, I have to set 4:4:4 on Radiance output configuration?
If Radiance is configured in 4:4:4 to VT50, It's ok set the sources in input to Radiance in 4:2:2? In general my sources are in 4:4:4 and I can't change this parameter (only on my bdp I can)...
And about dither? It's ok if I set 10 bit on radiance? Is this setting the best to VT50?
Thank you so much for your explanations and for your help
Vincenzo
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post #1202 of 1224 Old 06-05-2013, 03:27 PM
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If you want to know of 4:4:4 is better than 4:2:2 into the VT50, then bypass the Lumagen and test with the player plugged in directly to confirm. Once you have done that you will know what to set the output too. At that is done, you can test input into the Lumagen.

For dither, try looking at the various ramps on the disc and see if you see a difference between them with and without dither. You might also pick some gradients in movies such as sky or underwater and look at this with and without dither.
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post #1203 of 1224 Old 06-06-2013, 01:23 AM
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Thank you so much Stacey!

I'll try the process you suggested and, finally, I hope to have the best configuration for a good calibration smile.gif

Otherwise, I think my pipeline it will be (about dither I have to test):
  • BDP -->4:2:2:-->Radiance-->4:4:4-->VT50
  • Other sources -->4:4:4-->Radiance-->4:4:4-->VT50

A question. In an italian forum I read that films are in 4:2:0 and the forumer suggest 3 way to set the video pipeline:
Code:
1 - Y'CbCr 4:2:0 --> Y'CbCr 4:2:2 --> HDMI --> Y'CbCr 4:2:2 --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> R'G'B'
2 - Y'CbCr 4:2:0 --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> HDMI --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> R'G'B'
3 - Y'CbCr 4:2:0 --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> R'G'B' --> HDMI --> R'G'B'

He suggest using the number 2 or 3 (better 2) because they have fewer conversions (the Y'CbCr 4:2:2 will be always converted in Y'CbCr 4:4:4 and finally in R'G'B' that is the last conversion). It's true? What do you think about that?
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post #1204 of 1224 Old 06-06-2013, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I would test the VT50 directly with you Blu-ray player first to find out what signal it likes best, if any. Try both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 and look at the chroma alignment portion of our color space eval pattern. See if you see any difference. If not, I would use 4:4:4. I thought someone mentioned the VT50, or another, had a special mode for 4:4:4. I have a VT20 and 4:2:2 is the superior input.

As far the Lumagen, I would ask Jim if the internal processing is done at 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. If any part of the box converts to 4:2:2, then send that into the Lumagen to avoid any possible loss.

The Radiance processes internally in 422. If memory serves, at 12 bit. It will output 422 12 bit if Styles> HDMI Format is set to 422 and dither is set to off. 444 and RGB output is 8 bit only.
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post #1205 of 1224 Old 06-06-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

The Radiance processes internally in 422. If memory serves, at 12 bit. It will output 422 12 bit if Styles> HDMI Format is set to 422 and dither is set to off. 444 and RGB output is 8 bit only.

Dsinger thank you for the information!

Now, otherwise, I'm very doubtful. Panasonic VT50 can accept 12 bit input? As I said, the best input for VT50 seems to be 4:4:4...so If 4:4:4 is 8 bit, also VT50 is 8 bit only?
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post #1206 of 1224 Old 06-06-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonmenedice View Post

Dsinger thank you for the information!

Now, otherwise, I'm very doubtful. Panasonic VT50 can accept 12 bit input? As I said, the best input for VT50 seems to be 4:4:4...so If 4:4:4 is 8 bit, also VT50 is 8 bit only?

I don't know about the VT 50 but the 600u I bought in Fall 2006 would accept 422 12 bit from the Radiance. My advice is to try all the color spaces and bit rates using the S&M multi burst tests as well as others and see if you can see a difference.
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post #1207 of 1224 Old 06-07-2013, 11:54 AM
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Dsinger thank you so much for all!
Now I have to test and configurate all but I have a little bite more knowledge smile.gif

For the moment....goodbye smile.gif
Vincenzo
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post #1208 of 1224 Old 06-16-2013, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonmenedice View Post

A question. In an italian forum I read that films are in 4:2:0 and the forumer suggest 3 way to set the video pipeline:
Code:
1 - Y'CbCr 4:2:0 --> Y'CbCr 4:2:2 --> HDMI --> Y'CbCr 4:2:2 --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> R'G'B'
2 - Y'CbCr 4:2:0 --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> HDMI --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> R'G'B'
3 - Y'CbCr 4:2:0 --> Y'CbCr 4:4:4 --> R'G'B' --> HDMI --> R'G'B'

He suggest using the number 2 or 3 (better 2) because they have fewer conversions (the Y'CbCr 4:2:2 will be always converted in Y'CbCr 4:4:4 and finally in R'G'B' that is the last conversion). It's true? What do you think about that?

It's really not that simple. There are situations where #1 will work better. You just have to test all combinations and find out. In a perfect world, they would all be essentially identical, but that's not always reality.

The biggest problem with feeding Y'CbCr 4:4:4 or R'G'B' into a display is that many of them convert that signal back to Y'CbCr 4:2:2 for video processing like picture controls (brightness, contrast, etc.) CMS, sharpening, non-linear "enhancement" features and so forth. So on those displays, you're wasting your time (and potentially degrading the image) doing a conversion beyond 4:2:2 in the player.

The only way you would know whether it's internally converting to Y'CbCr is by looking at the motherboard for off-the-shelf chips that are known to only handle 4:2:2, or by telltale signs in testing. One of which is that you get a better picture feeding it 4:2:2 than 4:4:4. smile.gif

So our answer is "Test. Don't assume." smile.gif
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post #1209 of 1224 Old 01-21-2014, 04:59 AM
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I have a direct cable connection from an OPPO 103 to a Panny AE-8000 front projector going into Panny's HDMI 3 input. Calibrated it for Cinema 2 regarding playing the Blu-Ray player. Everything looks great.

Now, I want to calibrate for the Panny's NORMAL mode regarding a HDMI pass thru into my Denon AVR receiver and then into the projector's HDMI 2. Will it not calibrate based on the handshake of the OPPO->Denon->Panny and not the DISH network sat box I'm using? I've adjusted the settings on the Panny for the NORMAL mode by eye when using the DISH 722 and the settings are really wacked out, like a -13 on Color. NORMAL really seems to push color which I hate.

BTW, incredible disc, thanks!
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post #1210 of 1224 Old 03-10-2014, 10:42 PM
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Can you do me a favor? Upload a test disc to amazon or any other digital distribution. Be the first to do so!
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post #1211 of 1224 Old 07-29-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by John Mason

Yup, guess you can create all kind of tricks and measure false effective resolutions. I'd want to set the display accurately, as normally viewed, then measure the maximum effective horizontal resolution: a lens/reticle against a direct view screen--already known to fully resolve 1920X1080 from a test pattern--then comparing the observed reticle spacing(s) with a range of burst frequencies/resolutions to determine the maximum resolutions of the finest details.
**********************

OK, I understand now. And I think this could be an interesting and fruitful approach, but two caveats come to mind right off the bat:

- It's very difficult to tell the difference between an artifact and real content, especially on content transferred from film. Ringing can be obvious, or it can be much more subtle, and it can make a low-resolution area of the picture look like it has higher resolution. Film grain can add all kinds of fine details to the image, but it's obviously not adding any real content.

- It's going to be difficult to find a detail in a real movie with a hard edge that has a clear, unambiguous width. Most details in real-world content have been mildly smeared by a variety of anti-aliasing processes. You certainly won't find clean sine waves that you can just measure the peak-to-peak distance on. Say you look at a strand of hair under a loupe. It will almost certainly not be exactly one pixel wide. And it's impossible to measure exactly how much more or less than one pixel it is.

As Stacey implied, it's pretty much impossible to use the full resolution of any fixed-pixel display for an image without introducing ugly aliasing. Some of the details need to be smoothed, and that's usually done at least somewhat perceptually. There may be a default rolloff that tends to produce reasonably pleasing results (as there is in any digital camera), but if needed the filmmakers or transfer engineers can roll off a touch more to get rid of sparkles or line twitter or other issues caused by too much detail up near Nyquist.
Tried a few HD image measurements recently, using only a millimeter-marked ruler. Haven't acquired an optical loupe with a reticle yet, but while measuring I noticed a few instances where a magnifying loupe would have been useful.


You and Stacey were right about the difficulty measuring film detail resolutions. Tried a Blu-ray, The Tree of Life,(TOL) initially, one of the top-rated 0-tier productions in the Blu-ray PQ thread here. First I measured the black-line width on screen for 5 B&W vertically lined multiburst frequencies on your test disc (for the highest static horizontal resolutions ). Frequency labels are not on the first test disc but appear, with TV-line nomenclature, on the 2nd-gen disc (see calibration forum). On my 65" Panny plasma, from a Sony PS3 machine, got these results:
Code:
Frequency   Blk line width   Res/Pic. Ht.   16X9 Res (x 1.78)
37.09            ~1 mm              1079              1920
18.55            ~2 mm               962                1712
12.36            ~2.5 mm            641                1140
9.27               ~4 mm              481                 856
7.42                ~5 mm              385                685
Besides typical defocusing of backgrounds when characters were in the scene, forest shots--perhaps useful for fine details--often involved motion, blurring distant twigs etc.


In a medium-distance shot of a small store's facade, I measured a dark vertical line in the upper corner (~1 55 58 elapsed time) that's 2mm wide or ~1770 lines full 16X9 picture width resolution (962X1.84). (This 4k DI Blu-ray has a special 1.84:1 aspect ratio.) Most façade lines are still finer but barely visible inches or a few feet from the screen. A magnifying loupe and intermediate burst frequencies (>~19 MHz) would have helped. Earlier I posted sources for loupes, reticles, etc.


A TOL close up of the wife's straggling hairs (~1 55 14) was easily measured. One hair width was also ~2mm (~1770 lines ). Her image occupied half the frame, and the lens magnification is a factor.


Also recently measured some fine details at a 1080i golf match on the Golf Channel (via NYC's FIOS from Verizon). In one medium-range zoomed shot, with a golf green occupying about 2/3 of the image, narrow marsh reeds in the top background aided realism. The full-sunlit side of each reed or grass blade measured about 2 mm or ~1712 lines for a 16X9 image (962X1.78), similar to the typical ~1700-line limiting horizontal effective resolution of 1080i HD broadcasts. -- John


Edit: Table resolutions above calculated from Don's formula earlier above (F * 1920 / 37, where F=burst frequency).
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Last edited by John Mason; 08-03-2014 at 07:20 AM. Reason: add-on; TOL 1.84 ratiio correction
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post #1212 of 1224 Old 07-29-2014, 12:36 PM
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Even digital cameras have OLPFs in them. (Optical Low Pass Filter) For a Bayer pattern CMOS sensor this helps reduce chroma moiré in addition to normal aliasing. I find the OLPF in the RED EPIC-MX to be too strong. The Dragon will soon have user swappable OLPFs. I will be switching to a non-LP version of the OLPF for maximum detail. Even with OLPFs, film makers often use diffusion filters in front to reduce detail further. Mostly to make actors look better. Take a look at the sample images in this thread on Reduser and you can see what the OLPF does. The first zoom in is with stock OLPF and the 2nd is with the OLPF removed. This is on the Dragon sensor. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...GON-OLPF-tests


If the object is in motion, then you have motion blur introduced by the 180 degree (1/48th) shutter.


There is an open source 4k movie called Tears of Steel. Some of the VFX in that has true single pixel on / off detail at 4k. Most of it is pretty soft though.


Phil Holland shot a short called It's Just Paint that has a lot of detail and it was shot with the OLPF. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...t-s-Just-Paint Here is a 4k frame grab. (more frame grabs in the thread itself. http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photog...0T.0000591.jpg


Out of curiosity, how many would be interested in watching a documentary on display calibration? It may go further into video quality. It will cover on-set -> post -> home video transfer -> home calibration. This is a personal project that I am starting this year. It will probably take two years to complete given my schedule. I will interview Joe Kane, Joel Silver, Charles Poynton, SpectraCal, and many more. I will probably create a FB page for it, once started, and post stills along the way.
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post #1213 of 1224 Old 07-29-2014, 02:04 PM
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Hi Stacey and Don

I got your disc from Oppo a couple of weeks ago and tried to use it this weekend to calibrate my Pioneer Kuro that I recently moved to another room. Unfortunately, I was completely baffled because I could not find any instructions on how to use the various patterns to calibrate the picture. I've now downloaded the User's Guide listed in Post #5 on this thread and am hoping that it will give me some guidance on how to use your disc. But I also want to ask you if there are there any other resources that a newbie like me can reference when trying to use the disc? Thanks for your help.

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post #1214 of 1224 Old 07-29-2014, 02:07 PM
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Cal68,


It should have included a printed version of the getting started guide. If not, please contact OPPO. Also, press the up arrow when looking at any pattern for some on-screen help and sample images. In addition to the getting started article, there are more in-depth articles for brightness, contrast, color/tint and choosing a color space on our website.
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post #1215 of 1224 Old 07-30-2014, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Cal68,


It should have included a printed version of the getting started guide. If not, please contact OPPO. Also, press the up arrow when looking at any pattern for some on-screen help and sample images. In addition to the getting started article, there are more in-depth articles for brightness, contrast, color/tint and choosing a color space on our website.
Thanks Stacey. I did not see any instructions with the disc, but I'll check again to see if I missed it. I'll also check out your website for the articles that you have referenced in your response. Thanks also for the tip regarding the "up arrow". I'll use that information as well.

Thanks for your help.

Cal68
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post #1216 of 1224 Old 07-31-2014, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Out of curiosity, how many would be interested in watching a documentary on display calibration? It may go further into video quality. It will cover on-set -> post -> home video transfer -> home calibration. This is a personal project that I am starting this year. It will probably take two years to complete given my schedule. I will interview Joe Kane, Joel Silver, Charles Poynton, SpectraCal, and many more. I will probably create a FB page for it, once started, and post stills along the way.
Yes! Please do it!

larry

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post #1217 of 1224 Old 07-31-2014, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Out of curiosity, how many would be interested in watching a documentary on display calibration? It may go further into video quality. It will cover on-set -> post -> home video transfer -> home calibration. This is a personal project that I am starting this year. It will probably take two years to complete given my schedule. I will interview Joe Kane, Joel Silver, Charles Poynton, SpectraCal, and many more. I will probably create a FB page for it, once started, and post stills along the way.
Definitely!

BDP-83 EAP (first 50)
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post #1218 of 1224 Old 08-03-2014, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Out of curiosity, how many would be interested in watching a documentary on display calibration? It may go further into video quality. It will cover on-set -> post -> home video transfer -> home calibration. This is a personal project that I am starting this year. It will probably take two years to complete given my schedule. I will interview Joe Kane, Joel Silver, Charles Poynton, SpectraCal, and many more. I will probably create a FB page for it, once started, and post stills along the way.

Yes, such a documentary would be fascinating.


Your links to examples of Red camera shots without the built-in resolution-limiting optical camera filters is interesting. Couldn't help but wonder if any widely distributed programs or movies have used this technique.


BTW, on my 2nd editing of my post just above using the luma multiburst patterns on your 1st-edition test disc (linked above) to estimate program/movie effective resolution, I corrected my initial aspect ratio calculation for The Tree of Life (TOL) Blu-ray. Noticed at IMBD.com it has an unusual 1.84 BR ratio instead of the original 1.85, and I'd initially multiplied my TV-line estimation, mistakenly, by 1.78, not 1.84 to approximate the number of times my selected TOL details could appear horizontally across my 1920X1080 plasma screen. But I did use 1.78 for the details in the 1080i-HD 16X9 golf image.


Recall posting Joe Kane's comment some time back here that movie effective resolution only approximates 720p HD format resolution. Curious, and haven't seen any authoritative estimations, about how that now compares with D-cinema or Blu-rays. -- John
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post #1219 of 1224 Old 08-03-2014, 09:54 AM
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I don't know what the effective resolution of movies are these days. I don't know of specific films that have shot w/o an OLPF either. I do know that RED has an OLPF w/o the LP portion for the EPIC. When the swappable OLPF comes out for Dragon, I will get a non LP version to test with.

Here is an interesting article: http://provideocoalition.com/awilt/s...-_scce_charts/

None of the images below are mine. One artifact that an OLPF helps to reduce is chroma moiré. You can see it on the 7D examples. This might shop up on a brick wall, tweed jacket, etc... in real-life. If you search for sample images of the Nikon D800 vs. D800E (No OLPF) you can see the increased sharpness and in some situations moiré.

Here is a Leica Summilux-C lens test that Red performed a couple of years ago. This was looking at a zone plate. Even with the OLPF, a lot more than 720p before aliasing occurs.



Another test chart:



Canon 7D on left and I think RED ONE on right:
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post #1220 of 1224 Old 08-03-2014, 09:22 PM
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Have you looked into the xbox one?
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post #1221 of 1224 Old 08-03-2014, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
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Have you looked into the xbox one?

What do you mean? I worked on it from concept through the July update.
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post #1222 of 1224 Old 08-04-2014, 04:40 PM
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That's great. It's comforting to know a real professional worked on the calibration part of my $500 console. I just wish there were more options like my PS3. On my GT50, should I enable 1080p pure direct and should it be set to HDMI Standard (16-235)? Thanks!
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post #1223 of 1224 Old 08-04-2014, 04:57 PM
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The default settings for HDMI output are best, 16, 235 w/ head and toe room. You can also enable 24p. Blu-ray playback on the Xbox One is really a convenience feature. Personally I use an OPPO when I watch Blu-ray. I use the Xbox One for streaming media.
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post #1224 of 1224 Old 08-18-2014, 04:37 PM
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Sorry if this has already been asked but is this disc the best way to calibrate 10pt and CMS with a meter also? I have a Plasma which need to have a windowed pattern up anyway.......but is it ideal to have all the other levels around the center square also as opposed to a full field or windowed pattern with just black around it? Thanks!
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