Ghostbusters comparison *PIX* - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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The first few minutes will make the ignorant "grain" haters pop a vein. And of course the amateurs from other studios will jump up and reach for that DNR dial to turn it up and spilling their Jagermeister. Way up. Fortunately that did not happen. Sony has been outstanding dealing with catalog releases. Somebody out there actually know what film looks like. Grain and all. I will go so far that its a safe to blind buy if it came from them. No hack jobs.

Anyone complaining that there is too much grain therefore this release is sub-par is the main reason why we have a lot of Pattonized™ transfers. This includes people that defend it.

Ignorance is blissful.


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post #2 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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post #5 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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post #6 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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post #7 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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DVD Collector's Series 1999

DVD Widescreen Edition 2006

Blu-ray File size: 28.70 GB

Bitrate: 23.51 mbps


Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                            

                 
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track         

                 Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------       

                 ---------------------
00004.MPLS                                                      AVC     1:45:08 30,824,908,800  46,816,271,219  39.09   23.51   Dolby TrueHD 5.1 

1504Kbps (48kHz/16-bit)  

DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     GHOSTBUSTERS
Disc Size:      46,816,271,219 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        Yes
BDInfo:         0.5.2

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00004.MPLS
Size:                   30,824,908,800 bytes
Length:                 1:45:08 (h:m:s)
Total Bitrate:          39.09 Mbps
Description:            

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
MPEG-4 AVC Video        23510 kbps          1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 AVC Video        3717 kbps           480p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 3.2

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Dolby TrueHD Audio              English         1504 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 1504 kbps / 16-bit (AC3 Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps)
Dolby TrueHD Audio              French          1511 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 1511 kbps / 16-bit (AC3 Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps)
Dolby TrueHD Audio              Portuguese      1276 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 1276 kbps / 16-bit (AC3 Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps)
Dolby Digital Audio             Spanish         640 kbps        5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio             English         192 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / Dolby Surround
DTS Express                     English         192 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / 16-bit

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           English         33.520 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           English         25.163 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Arabic          15.132 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Dutch           22.571 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Dutch           40.670 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           French          23.204 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           French          38.762 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           French          40.031 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Portuguese      27.540 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Portuguese      50.343 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Portuguese      40.505 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         32.073 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         39.020 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         42.050 kbps                     

FILES:

Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
----            -------         ------          ----            -------------   
00262.M2TS      0:00:00.000     1:45:08.343     30,824,908,800  39,091          

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time In         Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 

10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          -------         ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  -------

-------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:06:39.065     24,139 kbps     26,913 kbps     00:00:20.228    25,108 kbps     00:00:16.224    24,763 kbps     

00:00:11.219    125,837 bytes   233,003 bytes   00:00:21.062    
2               0:06:39.065     0:09:07.380     24,434 kbps     27,376 kbps     00:14:12.268    24,918 kbps     00:14:08.264    24,659 kbps     

00:14:03.217    127,386 bytes   247,350 bytes   00:13:03.073    
3               0:15:46.445     0:06:03.613     24,310 kbps     26,346 kbps     00:20:13.086    24,744 kbps     00:21:40.173    24,588 kbps     

00:16:44.670    126,743 bytes   382,286 bytes   00:20:14.087    
4               0:21:50.058     0:06:45.696     24,457 kbps     27,384 kbps     00:23:58.979    24,999 kbps     00:23:54.975    24,671 kbps     

00:23:49.970    127,506 bytes   260,136 bytes   00:24:00.689    
5               0:28:35.755     0:06:16.209     24,396 kbps     26,531 kbps     00:34:18.097    24,935 kbps     00:34:14.093    24,679 kbps     

00:32:45.838    127,188 bytes   201,260 bytes   00:32:55.598    
6               0:34:51.964     0:04:14.712     24,235 kbps     27,327 kbps     00:37:32.375    24,804 kbps     00:37:07.391    24,629 kbps     

00:37:02.386    126,353 bytes   231,191 bytes   00:37:12.355    
7               0:39:06.677     0:09:40.037     24,415 kbps     26,279 kbps     00:39:41.754    24,778 kbps     00:39:49.845    24,653 kbps     

00:39:44.882    127,287 bytes   240,837 bytes   00:39:46.842    
8               0:48:46.715     0:03:29.167     24,081 kbps     26,304 kbps     00:49:04.942    24,825 kbps     00:48:58.143    24,590 kbps     

00:48:53.180    125,546 bytes   200,849 bytes   00:51:56.113    
9               0:52:15.882     0:02:48.168     24,127 kbps     26,179 kbps     00:52:30.397    24,744 kbps     00:54:03.490    24,610 kbps     

00:53:58.401    125,787 bytes   223,146 bytes   00:54:48.118    
10              0:55:04.050     0:09:29.360     24,335 kbps     27,958 kbps     01:00:03.308    25,174 kbps     00:59:59.262    24,810 kbps     

00:59:54.299    126,874 bytes   191,031 bytes   01:04:27.822    
11              1:04:33.411     0:06:08.534     24,411 kbps     29,908 kbps     01:08:58.843    25,651 kbps     01:08:54.839    24,991 kbps     

01:08:49.834    127,265 bytes   283,818 bytes   01:10:12.082    
12              1:10:41.946     0:02:53.339     24,470 kbps     25,380 kbps     01:12:43.817    24,628 kbps     01:10:45.074    24,577 kbps     

01:11:52.016    127,574 bytes   222,587 bytes   01:13:34.368    
13              1:13:35.285     0:05:23.239     24,454 kbps     25,819 kbps     01:17:34.483    24,779 kbps     01:17:30.479    24,636 kbps     

01:17:25.474    127,493 bytes   226,238 bytes   01:18:40.298    
14              1:18:58.525     0:06:18.503     24,037 kbps     26,465 kbps     01:21:40.103    24,854 kbps     01:21:36.099    24,615 kbps     

01:23:31.923    125,315 bytes   251,246 bytes   01:23:52.819    
15              1:25:17.028     0:05:27.702     24,021 kbps     28,904 kbps     01:29:11.596    24,990 kbps     01:29:22.857    24,637 kbps     

01:29:25.693    125,233 bytes   259,716 bytes   01:29:35.536    
16              1:30:44.730     0:14:23.612     18,486 kbps     29,938 kbps     01:40:33.485    25,372 kbps     01:40:24.101    25,077 kbps     

01:40:24.476    96,384 bytes    264,262 bytes   01:40:28.897    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Language                Seconds                 Bitrate                 Bytes           

Packets         
----            ---             ----            -----           --------                --------------          --------------          -------------   

-----           
00262.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x1B            AVC                                     6308.260                23,510                  18,538,555,383  

100,841,275     
00262.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x83            TrueHD          eng (English)           6308.260                2,144                   1,690,429,382   

12,780,340      
00262.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x83            TrueHD          fra (French)            6308.260                2,151                   1,696,371,894   

12,840,338      
00262.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           6308.260                192                     151,400,448     

985,680         
00262.M2TS      4355 (0x1103)   0x81            AC3             spa (Spanish)           6308.260                640                     504,668,160     

2,957,040       
00262.M2TS      4356 (0x1104)   0x83            TrueHD          por (Portuguese)        6308.260                1,916                   1,510,861,062   

10,822,496      
00262.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           6308.260                34                      26,432,004      

150,970         
00262.M2TS      4609 (0x1201)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           6308.260                25                      19,841,885      

115,684         
00262.M2TS      4610 (0x1202)   0x90            PGS             fra (French)            6308.260                23                      18,297,077      

104,485         
00262.M2TS      4611 (0x1203)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           6308.260                32                      25,290,927      

144,822         
00262.M2TS      4612 (0x1204)   0x90            PGS             por (Portuguese)        6308.260                28                      21,716,638      

124,270         
00262.M2TS      4613 (0x1205)   0x90            PGS             ara (Arabic)            6308.260                15                      11,932,402      

72,287          
00262.M2TS      4614 (0x1206)   0x90            PGS             nld (Dutch)             6308.260                23                      17,798,500      

101,265         
00262.M2TS      4615 (0x1207)   0x90            PGS             fra (French)            6308.260                39                      30,565,857      

173,066         
00262.M2TS      4616 (0x1208)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           6308.260                39                      30,768,996      

174,147         
00262.M2TS      4617 (0x1209)   0x90            PGS             por (Portuguese)        6308.260                50                      39,697,360      

224,611         
00262.M2TS      4618 (0x120A)   0x90            PGS             nld (Dutch)             6308.260                41                      32,069,703      

181,223         
00262.M2TS      4619 (0x120B)   0x90            PGS             fra (French)            6308.260                40                      31,566,385      

179,885         
00262.M2TS      4620 (0x120C)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           6308.260                42                      33,158,242      

188,520         
00262.M2TS      4621 (0x120D)   0x90            PGS             por (Portuguese)        6308.260                41                      31,939,683      

181,906         
00262.M2TS      6656 (0x1A00)   0xA2            DTS Express     eng (English)           6308.260                192                     151,400,448     

887,112         
00262.M2TS      6912 (0x1B00)   0x1B            AVC                                     6308.260                3,717                   2,930,812,371   

16,036,492


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post #8 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 05:24 AM
 
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Are you using both versions of the DVD ?
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post #9 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 06:07 AM
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What happened to the shot of the skyline on the Blu-Ray version? There's a white outline on the buildings on the left.
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post #10 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikaden View Post

What happened to the shot of the skyline on the Blu-Ray version? There's a white outline on the buildings on the left.

Those look like matte lines from the special effect composite for the shot.
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post #11 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikaden View Post

What happened to the shot of the skyline on the Blu-Ray version? There's a white outline on the buildings on the left.

You can see the outlines on the DVD version as well.
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post #12 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladic View Post

doesn't look like much of an improvement

Look at the pictures of the purple monster in the library basement. The teeth, the textures in the skin, the strands of white hair floating away on both sides, etc. Look at the pics of the fountain at Lincoln Center. I can actually read the banner and the name of the hotel/restaurant across the street on the BD (unreadable on DVD).

No, it's not a reference transfer but considering (a) it's using 80's film stock, (b) has a ton of optical/matte effects (meaning we're already looking at a 2nd gen. source within the film itself during many SFX shots) and (c) the movie hasn't been seen as close to its 35mm resolution since it was released theatrically in '84 (most people's memories of it probably come from VHS/TV broadcasts) these pics are a revelation. As far as I'm concerned "Ghostbusters" on BD is a WINNAH!


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post #13 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 07:29 AM
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Resolution and detail: excellent

Pumped up brightness, contrast, and colors: not so good
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post #14 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Pumped up brightness, contrast, and colors: not so good

By what standard?

I don't feel special...
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post #15 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 07:52 AM
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That white outline looks really bad, and the building is leaning too. I'm all for replacing stuff like that. It was good enough for star Trek the original series, so it's good enough for this too.

Genius is an insult to my intelligence!

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post #16 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 08:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post


Pumped up brightness, contrast, and colors: not so good

Compared to what source? What are you basing this on?
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post #17 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 08:40 AM
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The previous versions. The old transfer was too dark and full of filtering artifacts but IMO it looked much more film-like in terms of color and tone compared to this overly bright new version. This was noticed and discussed years ago when the newer set came out
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post #18 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 08:44 AM
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I've had a look at this BD, and the detail is obviously much improved and the encode is pretty decent throughout. Obviously it "suffers" from a large amount of noise, especially in some of the darker shots where the blacks are littered with noise.

So yeah, as long as you don't mind it being very noisy then sweet -- I think after looking at it we should all count ourselves really lucky that it wasn't pattonised as I'm sure it could've been.
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post #19 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 08:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The previous versions. The old transfer was too dark and full of filtering artifacts but IMO it looked much more film-like in terms of color and tone compared to this overly bright new version. This was noticed and discussed years ago when the newer set came out

I care less about how it looks compared to previous version and more about how it looks compared to the original source. I don't want something that looks how I think it should look. I want something that looks how it should look.
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post #20 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

I care less about how it looks compared to previous version and more about how it looks compared to the original source. I don't want something that looks how I think it should look. I want something that looks how it should look.

The new version does not look like the old cinema print I saw projected last October. The cinema version is closer to the 1999 DVD. On the plus side, in some ways the new BD is better than the cinema print but it has definitely been altered in terms of contrast and colour scheme.

Looking at the screencaps, the blu-ray kicks the backside of both previous DVDs.
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post #21 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The old transfer was too dark and full of filtering artifacts but IMO it looked much more film-like in terms of color and tone compared to this overly bright new version.



Considering that both transfers feature spectra well within the bounds of what can be done with cinema color-timing, I don't understand how one transfer can look more "film-like" than another in color terms.

I don't feel special...
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post #22 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 09:35 AM
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I'm breathing easier; looks to me like the blu-ray blows the others away, even if the contrast is pumped up to a level I don't think is quite "film-like".

What I'm astonished by is just how soft the 2005 edition looks, compared with the earlier 1999 edition! Call me crazy (and I'm sure--on this forum--someone inevitably will), but I think the "golden age" of DVD compression was from 1998 thru 2004. For some reason, on my 92-inch screen, DVDs from this era look WAY better (in general) than more recent releases. Just an observation; not a hard-and-fast "law". (In other words, please don't send me a million examples of "exceptions") The cynical side of me is wondering whether the studios are making the DVDs suck more so they can sell more blu-rays.
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post #23 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 09:46 AM
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I have all three versions and after closely watching the new Blu-ray, I can say without a doubt it is a major, major upgrade. I think the small changes in color tonality and contrast improve the appearance of the movie if anything. This is how all catalog titles should be handled in my opinion.


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post #24 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 10:04 AM
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Ivan Reitman was on record years back as disliking one of the laserdisc transfers of GHOSTBUSTERS because the light levels were so "pumped up" you could see the matte lines around the F/X.

Unfortunately that is once again the case with the Blu-Ray. I'd like to hear what he has to say about this transfer, because it looks to me like the contrast and brightness are once again too heightened in this presentation beyond their normal levels.
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post #25 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 01:08 PM
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well remember when spiderman 2 came out on both 2 disc dvd with the extras and a standalone superbit dvd? and the sb dvd looked much better? well, since the only thing on the regular dvd on disc 1 was the movie itself, there was no reason the pq should have been worse. there was no "space issue" whixh was all part of the sb marketing bs... so to get spidey 2 with the best presentation and the extras, you had to buy both...


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post #26 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 02:04 PM
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post #27 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladic View Post

doesn't look like much of an improvement

Yeah. The DVD doesn't look much of an improvement over the Blu-ray.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #28 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 02:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_breeze View Post

I'm breathing easier; looks to me like the blu-ray blows the others away, even if the contrast is pumped up to a level I don't think is quite "film-like".

Those who are saying this looks "too pumped" or "not quite film-like," can you post fulls resolution pics of particular scenes which look that way?

What type of display are you using? You cant make a fair judgment unless you're comparing apples to apples. I think my setup is fairly close to an apples to apples. I have a ~100.5x56.6" screen using a CRT projector with ~8 foot lamberts, close to your average cinema levels.

If you're using say, some small plasma, a digital RPTV, LCD, etc, none of those are representative of the original film print, which some have said they've seen the 35mm print recently. You're already pumping the contrast and brightness, black level, etc if you aren't using a display which is capable of mimicking the original film.

So let me know and I'll put the 'objectionable" scenes on my projector and let you all know. So far with the pics Xylon posted and the ones on DVD beaver, I see nothing at all to complain about. I don't even mind the grain one bit. On my CRT the grain actually looks quite natural.
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post #29 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troglobite View Post

Those who are saying this looks "too pumped" or "not quite film-like," can you post fulls resolution pics of particular scenes which look that way?

What type of display are you using? You cant make a fair judgment unless you're comparing apples to apples. I think my setup is fairly close to an apples to apples. I have a ~100.5x56.6" screen using a CRT projector with ~8 foot lamberts, close to your average cinema levels.

If you're using say, some small plasma, a digital RPTV, LCD, etc, none of those are representative of the original film print, which some have said they've seen the 35mm print recently. You're already pumping the contrast and brightness, black level, etc if you aren't using a display which is capable of mimicking the original film.

So let me know and I'll put the 'objectionable" scenes on my projector and let you all know. So far with the pics Xylon posted and the ones on DVD beaver, I see nothing at all to complain about. I don't even mind the grain one bit. On my CRT the grain actually looks quite natural.


Let me preface all my following comments by saying that I'm a professional cinematographer who has shot 17 feature films; I've gone thru the photochemical color-timing process, as well as the Digital Intermediate process (at top houses like Efilm and Modern VideoFilm); I'm watching on a 92-inch 2.35:1 Carada BW screen, projected from a Panasonic PT-AE1000U which I've calibrated myself to be just about perfect...

Having finally watched GHOSTBUSTERS in its entirety, I don't think the overall contrast level is terribly objectionable, although it is definitively more "crunchy" than you could get in the photo-chemical realm. The main sequence that stands out as being "overly-cooked", however, is the much-talked-of Gozer showdown on the top of the building.

The simple face is: if you were watching a photo-chemical print, there would be detail in the white smoke that's billowing down the staircase. On this BD, it is completely blown-out and devoid of any detail. The other shots that are completely un-filmlike are the closeups of Dan Aykroyd when he's being asked "Are you a god". You'll see that the bright spots on his face have "clipped" in a way that only video can. Again, on straight film, this bright area would "roll off" in a much more natural way and not be "white holes" of no detail.

I'm a major MAJOR supporter of grain-preservation on BD, but I must admit that even I was surprised by some of the heavy grain levels in this release. At times, it looked more like electronic noise left over from the scanning process than organic film grain (to my eyes, anyway). I'm sure it wasn't helped by the boosted contrast levels.

EDIT: For excessive "noise" that doesn't look like grain, check out the scene when Bill Murray reacts to the hearse that Dan Aykroyd just drove up in. Weird textures goin' on.

Overall... it is the best it's ever looked on home video, but it definitely could have been better. Since "could've's" are useless, I'll enjoy this release 'til the next one comes along.
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post #30 of 210 Old 06-18-2009, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troglobite View Post

Those who are saying this looks "too pumped" or "not quite film-like," can you post fulls resolution pics of particular scenes which look that way?

What type of display are you using? You cant make a fair judgment unless you're comparing apples to apples. I think my setup is fairly close to an apples to apples. I have a ~100.5x56.6" screen using a CRT projector with ~8 foot lamberts, close to your average cinema levels.

If you're using say, some small plasma, a digital RPTV, LCD, etc, none of those are representative of the original film print, which some have said they've seen the 35mm print recently. You're already pumping the contrast and brightness, black level, etc if you aren't using a display which is capable of mimicking the original film.

So let me know and I'll put the 'objectionable" scenes on my projector and let you all know. So far with the pics Xylon posted and the ones on DVD beaver, I see nothing at all to complain about. I don't even mind the grain one bit. On my CRT the grain actually looks quite natural.

Just keep in perspective the fact that there are several who notice a hair missing off a gnats ass and that isn't a compliment or criticism, but rather the reality of this forum.

You make excellent points. If anyone really wants to see how the movie is actually supposed to look then they should have a 35mm film projector in their theater.
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