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Star Trek (2009)

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#1 ·
#1,128 ·
I do find it entertaining that if "Spock Prime" had been the central character in the story, and it had been told from his point of view, it would have been all about his efforts to save Vulcan and restore the original timeline.


This aberration where Vulcan is destroyed, Amanda is killed, Spock and Kirk are enemies, Uhura is Spock's lover, and the Enterprise Engineering deck smells like a brewery* would be seen as some evil Mirror Universe that was never meant to be.




*because it is one; see the bonus features
 
#1,129 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tutelary /forum/post/17659008


Yet Kirk's dad died and they all still ended up together on the Enterprise with Kirk as captain...

It's what I keep saying. Out of an infinite number of possible universes, there is one where it happened that way. This movie is about that universe, and not about any of the infinite number of universes where it didn't.


This is why we have fiction. All stories are real. Just not here.
 
#1,131 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspeer /forum/post/17658319


It just depends on the scale that you make the observation. Eventually our sun will turn into a red dwarf and expand past the earths orbit, destroying the planet. So if you wait long enough, the differences in the time line eventually make no difference. The universe marches on.

That brings up another "bad-science" element to the movie...if the star went supernova on Romulus, wouldn't it have been long preceded by a stretch of pre-nova-oriented cosmic disaster upon the planet that effectively makes the planet inhospitable, anyway? Would not the star expand to red giant proportions over millions of years before entering a collapsing instability phase that results in a supernova, hence blowing off the atmosphere of Romulus and roasting anything organic on it? It's not like they wouldn't have any warning over millions (billions?) of years to leave the planet before an actual supernova event, right? It makes it even more pointless to develop red-blob-blackhole technology to conceptually cancel out a supernova. If you are responding to that event in particular, it is already far, far too late to save any life off that planet, eh?
 
#1,132 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tutelary /forum/post/17659008


Yet Kirk's dad died and they all still ended up together on the Enterprise with Kirk as captain...

The problem with infinite realities being spun off from one another is that the whole concept is absurd. I turn right instead of left and a new reality exists? No. More like a chain of probabilities collapse into that absolute decision. I did x, not y. The natural world tends toward simplicity. Stacking endless realities on the actions of people isn't just crazy, it's egotistical to a staggering degree.

Sorry, but that is exactly what current quantum theory predicts, based on particle/wave duality. When considering a particle on a quantum scale, it takes on the properties of both a particle and a wave at the same time (i.e. an electron is not a particle orbiting a nucleus, but a range of probabilities as to where it is at any point in time). When it has a choice to make whether to "turn left or turn right", it actually does both. While we are discussing the science of a movie, this is the theoretical reality...
 
#1,133 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin /forum/post/17455196


The lens flare did not bother me at all

FINALLY saw this on BD, saw it once in the theater, really liked this movie. I am pretty disappointed with the lens flare. I thought there was something wrong with my copy of the disc as a matter of fact. I take solace in that according to others, this was an intentional part of the movie. I guess I didn't notice it much in the theater. This is distracting to me, and if I had to rate this, I would drop it down to 3 even. Too bad, I will watch it again and I am sure get more used to it, but it's too bad I even have to after thinking this would be reference.
 
#1,134 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by clutch69 /forum/post/17660439


FINALLY saw this on BD, saw it once in the theater, really liked this movie. I am pretty disappointed with the lens flare. I thought there was something wrong with my copy of the disc as a matter of fact. I take solace in that according to others, this was an intentional part of the movie. I guess I didn't notice it much in the theater. This is distracting to me, and if I had to rate this, I would drop it down to 3 even. Too bad, I will watch it again and I am sure get more used to it, but it's too bad I even have to after thinking this would be reference.

Actually, it sounds like you got a defective disc that has "light" that also "flares". Apparently it was a glitch in the encode as light should never be toyed with while making movies.
 
#1,136 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z /forum/post/17650527


Yes, but, eventually someone would (will) discover that vaccine.

It will end up being some dude working in his garage.

Lord knows it won't be researchers at a pharmaceutical company.

There ain't NO $$$ in cures, only "treatments" and "therapies."
 
#1,137 ·
seems like everyone has a pretty good idea on parallel universes. You all should start adding in a couple of perpendicular universes for fun.


I like parallel and perpendicular (and everything in between) universes for the simple fact that it means that what everyone here has said is actually correct. There is no wrong answer because somewhere in existanz the answer is correct if you can take existanz as a whole and not confine your brain to the set of rules that governs our actual existence in the very small part of the whole.


I would go into it but... it would take like 10 pages to write my theory, and nobody would read it anyway.

well maybe i already did and someone actually did read it.
 
#1,138 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 /forum/post/17656930


On the contrary, as time progresses the differences introduced by an alternate sequence of events only become more significant on an exponential basis. That was clearly looked over here as cinematic license (which is fine), but the actual theories in quantum mechanics concerning particle-wave duality suggest that every possible decision is constantly made simultaneously, each one branching off a parallel universe, if you will (which is the equivalent of what Nero did). In fact, this was the basis for the series 'Sliders'.


Your suggestion that, in the long run someone would make the same discovery (possibly at a later time), and that would ultimately make a minimal difference (the end is the same, so all of the intervening events are irrelevant from a long POV), could not be more wrong. This viewpoint fails to take into account the events set into motion by every decision made that differs from what it should have been had the timeline not been disrupted (not to mention that many of the decisions originally made might not have to be made at all). For clarification, I use the term 'decision' to mean any time there are multiple possible outcomes. From the moment of said disruption, the course of events must by definition diverge. This is the hypothetical "infinite number of mokeys" scenario: Basically, if you have an infinite number of monkeys, pounding away at an infinite number of typewriters, for an infinite amount of time, then the mathematical probability that the novel "War and Peace" would eventually be produced, is not zero. While a nice thought in the realm of theory, this conclusion is not a practical possibility (any more than a tornado hitting a plane graveyard and producing a fully functional 747 - again, the theoretical odds are not zero... but we both know it ain't gonna happen). Where Nero's actions are concerned, the odds that causality and random chance would cause events to converge back to anything remotely resembling what we started with, while not zero in theory, is also not a practical possibility.


EDIT: Sorry... I think my inner nerd got the better of me again...



In this case, I believe this film (along with most other popcorn movies) falls under the category "don't criticize Bugs because rabbits don't talk... just enjoy the film"...

you cannot have it both ways. either parallels exist or they do not.


an infinite number of monkeys in a single space/time existence may be able to produce a random war and peace. But you are ignoring the fact that the infinite number of monkeys is typing away in an infinite number of parallels. this mathmatically increases the random war and peace by making it happen in 50% of the possibilities since its either going to happen or not and not just the mathmatical statistic of the one. Actually in 50% of the parallels all they type is war and peace and someone is trying to get the monkeys to type something completely random.


the real question is where are you in existanz?

open your mind and observe the whole not just the one.
 
#1,139 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathanwinter /forum/post/17661022


There is no wrong answer because somewhere in existanz the answer is correct if you can take existanz as a whole and not confine your brain to the set of rules that governs our actual existence in the very small part of the whole.

These are the kind of discussions that kept a local Pizza Hut in business as a friend and I debated all kinds of this stuff every Friday over lunch for many years (I truly miss that - good times). Be careful, you might just be labeled a bigger nerd than I...


Quote:
...observe the whole not just the one.

Again, point well taken. I am not a statistics guru (man, I hated those classes), but I was merely referring to one of the basic tenants of quantum mechanics (particle/wave duality, and the theory that on a quantum scale, every possible outcome happens simultaneously.) I am starting to see rdclark's point in that the real coincidence here is that we happen to be looking into that one out of an almost infinite number of possible parallel universes.

Quote:
I would go into it but... it would take like 10 pages to write my theory, and nobody would read it anyway.

well maybe i already did and someone actually did read it.

You did, in a parallel universe... nice thesis, by the way
 
#1,141 ·
This is turning into my favorite Blu of the year. I watch the opening sequence and Space Dive/Drill sequence all the time. Good stuff.
 
#1,142 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 /forum/post/17661471


These are the kind of discussions that kept a local Pizza Hut in business as a friend and I debated all kinds of this stuff every Friday over lunch for many years (I truly miss that - good times). Be careful, you might just be labeled a bigger nerd than I...

im not intelligent enough to be a nerd.
im just a poser thats a little left of center.

I was hooked the day my father told me a story while striking a match. Good times. If i could have had 10% of his knowledge.

Quote:
Again, point well taken. I am not a statistics guru (man, I hated those classes), but I was merely referring to one of the basic tenants of quantum mechanics (particle/wave duality, and the theory that on a quantum scale, every possible outcome happens simultaneously.) I am starting to see rdclark's point in that the real coincidence here is that we happen to be looking into that one out of an almost infinite number of possible parallel universes.

my questions are; am i looking at the same possible parallel/perpendicular as you? If im standing on the moon and your standing on the earth we can both see the same stars.

and; if all possibilities happen what happened to the particle that arrived where nothing exists?

Quote:
You did, in a parallel universe... nice thesis, by the way





EDIT: Star trek is now on a short wait so i really hope to receive it soon.
from all of the discussion here i really cant wait to see it.
 
#1,143 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 /forum/post/17656930


Your suggestion that, in the long run someone would make the same discovery (possibly at a later time), and that would ultimately make a minimal difference (the end is the same, so all of the intervening events are irrelevant from a long POV), could not be more wrong. This viewpoint fails to take into account the events set into motion by every decision made that differs from what it should have been had the timeline not been disrupted (not to mention that many of the decisions originally made might not have to be made at all).

Yes, but how many of those decisions, and how many of the events set off by those decisions, actually have a lasting impact on the long-term timeline?


Say a peasant in 12th Century France decides to take a different route home at a fork in the road and accidentally falls in a ditch and breaks his neck, as opposed to the long and productive life he would have had otherwise. Sure, that event would have profound consequences for his family and friends, which would set off another chain of events at each one of those new "decision" points. But the impact of those new decisions dissipates the further they get from the original event.


Would that peasant's death really affect where you, Vader424242, are right now, at this moment, nine centuries later? Probably not.


Even if he were your great-great-great-great-great, etc. grandfather, he's such an infintessimally tiny portion of your genetic history that almost certainly someone else would have stepped in to fill the gap during one of the intervening generations. When it comes to you, you might have a freckle in a different spot, but your life would otherwise be the same.
 
#1,144 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky /forum/post/17659400


That brings up another "bad-science" element to the movie...if the star went supernova on Romulus, wouldn't it have been long preceded by a stretch of pre-nova-oriented cosmic disaster upon the planet that effectively makes the planet inhospitable, anyway? Would not the star expand to red giant proportions over millions of years before entering a collapsing instability phase that results in a supernova, hence blowing off the atmosphere of Romulus and roasting anything organic on it? It's not like they wouldn't have any warning over millions (billions?) of years to leave the planet before an actual supernova event, right? It makes it even more pointless to develop red-blob-blackhole technology to conceptually cancel out a supernova. If you are responding to that event in particular, it is already far, far too late to save any life off that planet, eh?

Further, let's say that the supernova happened exactly as described, with only a few months notice. And let's say that Spock was successful in absorbing the supernova in a black hole.


How long do you think life would last on Romulus without its sun?

 
#1,145 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z /forum/post/17663743


Further, let's say that the supernova happened exactly as described, with only a few months notice. And let's say that Spock was successful in absorbing the supernova in a black hole.


How long do you think life would last on Romulus without its sun?


It wasn't Romulus' star, it was the nearby Hobus star.


They didn't explain it in the film but I'd like to think it was this type of supernova:
http://www.armageddononline.org/hype...ding-star.html


One less than 3,000 light years from Earth would kill all life.
 
#1,146 ·
As said, it wasn't Romulus' star.


It wasn't a "normal supernova" either. That was the whole jist of the threat that lead to the plot of the movie. Instead of doing it's thing and dissapating, it kept growing in size by a means not understood by the scientific minds of the 24th century. Some felt it would "burn out" and not continue to be a threat. Spock, however, believed it would continue to grow and gain strength as it consumed additional worlds. Following this, he felt the entire galaxy would eventually be at risk of being consumed.


He (along with Nero, who had observed a world being destoryed by this phenomena from his mining vessel) convinced Romulus they were at risk and promised he would help. He came up with the red matter/black hole solution but was too late to save Romulus. Nero thought he (and the Federation) stalled and allowed Romulus to be destroyed.


In the aftermath, Nero had his ship augmented by advanced technology (even advanced for their time period) based on Borg tech given to him by agents of Romulus who expected him to protect what was left of the Empire. Instead he went on a rampage against the Federation, and he also went after Spock as he tried to stop the "supernova". Spock did stop it, but the Narada and Spocks ship were caught in the resulting Black hole.


Getting accidentally sent back in time gave Nero a new opportunity. Instead of simply revenge, he could get revenge AND take steps that would (in his belief) protect Romulus by destroying the Federation. So he had to wait for Spock, capture him, and take the red matter tech. Then he could destroy the Federation and "protect" Romulus from any future Federation interference/aggression, etc... Once the Federation is gone, he could do whatever he needed to prevent the supernova a century before it happens, and Romulus would only then be truely safe (from the supernova and the Federation).



I think someone may have wondered about where/when Nero would up when he went into the black hole at the end? I would say nowhere. The ship was destroyed this time. The first time, the black hole was already there and he (and Spock) simply went through it. This time, the black hole formed in side of his ship, so the ship was destroyed as the hole formed.



As for going back and "fixing things" so Vlucan isn't destroyed, that would be a lame cop out. The reset button stinks. Something major a dramatic happend, let's let them deal with it.


In any event, there will still be a "Vulcan", but it will be "New Vulcan" I suppose. There are enough survivors to rebuild the population, and their culture and knowledge has been preserved. It won't be the Vulcan from the original timeline, but the new timeline won't be without a "Vulcan" either.
 
#1,147 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z /forum/post/17663727


Would that peasant's death really affect where you, Vader424242, are right now, at this moment, nine centuries later? Probably not.


Even if he were your great-great-great-great-great, etc. grandfather, he's such an infintessimally tiny portion of your genetic history that almost certainly someone else would have stepped in to fill the gap during one of the intervening generations. When it comes to you, you might have a freckle in a different spot, but your life would otherwise be the same.

If he were to die, every descendant he would have otherwise had will never exist, not just come to be with minor alterations. His would be wife may never even have children with anyone else.
 
#1,148 ·
Did they happen to mention how far out this Hobus star was from Romulus? Even if it is only 10 light years away (which would be ridiculously close in intergalactic standards, right?), I'd imagine that would still be quite practical to evacuate the planet in such a time span before a destructive nova wavefront could even reach the planet.
Supernova, shmova!


Why even futz with the machinery of a star that isn't your own solar system center, anyway? Wouldn't it have been far more practical to just set up some sort of giant EM shield grid way out in space to shadow the planet of concern if you already can pinpoint where the wavefront will be coming from?


Interesting point, Josh Z. I'm not even sure it was well established how this instant blackhole strategy was supposed to "cure" the situation, altogether. I had imagined the idea was to counter the "ultimate explosion" of a supernova with the "ultimate suction" of a blackhole, but not necessarily destroy the star...which of course would be a silly and nonsensical solution in of itself (but I don't really expect much more than that from "modern sci-fi", anyway).
 
#1,149 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Pie /forum/post/17660459


Actually, it sounds like you got a defective disc that has "light" that also "flares". Apparently it was a glitch in the encode as light should never be toyed with while making movies.

Yeah, it's pretty bad, like REALLY bad, I may rent a copy just to see if this is the case. Too bad I don't have the receipt. I would LOVE to get a copy that wasn't like this.
 
#1,150 ·
It seems I'm always playing the scene when we see the Enterprise complete for the first time at space dock and when it launches into warp speed. The audio is amazing.
 
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