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Pecker's Avatar Pecker 12:18 PM 07-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Wow. I'd love to have seen that shot in the movie. No talking taking place, just a few seconds of the two of them on screen at the same time in silence staring at each other. Then Mann could go back to keeping them seperated if he wanted (which apparently, he did).

As I say that shot, had it appeared in the film, would have become lost when cropped to 4:3; this would have been a big consideration on both the director's and cinematographer's mind at the time..

You could cut between RDN for a second and then AP for a second, but it'd have just looked strange, particularly as much of the frame (the centre) would have been in both new 'shots' at once, only alternating between the left and the right of the image.

BTW, I'd have loved to have seen it, too.

Steve W

sb1's Avatar sb1 12:19 PM 07-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

As I say that shot, had it appeared in the film, would have become lost when cropped to 4:3.
You could cut between RDN for a second and then AP for a second, but it'd have just looked strange.

BTW, I'd have loved to have seen it, too.

Steve W

Yeah, good point. We'd have had an awesome shot of the ketchup bottle and napkins, though.
Pecker's Avatar Pecker 12:24 PM 07-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Yeah, good point. We'd have had an awesome shot of the ketchup bottle and napkins, though.

Have you ever seen Profondo Rosso cut to 4:3. The conversation across the market square is halarious - made more so by the subs appearing in the middle with apparently no actors speaking.

Steve W
sb1's Avatar sb1 12:33 PM 07-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

Have you ever seen Profondo Rosso cut to 4:3. The conversation across the market square is halarious - made more so by the subs appearing in the middle with apparently no actors speaking.

Steve W

Ha! Haven't seen that one. I do know there have been movies I've talked with friends about that I watched in 2.35:1 and they only saw the cropped version. I'd say something about an actor, and they'd wonder what the hell I was talking about - "that dude wasn't on the screen".
oink's Avatar oink 05:31 PM 07-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post


The restaurant scene in Heat is staged in the absolute blandest reverse-angle-reverse coverage. It's almost comical how blatant it is that you can only see the back of one actor's head while the other speaks.

I couldn't agree more.
What the hell was MM thinking?
oink's Avatar oink 05:34 PM 07-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Wow. I'd love to have seen that shot in the movie. No talking taking place, just a few seconds of the two of them on screen at the same time in silence staring at each other. Then Mann could go back to keeping them seperated if he wanted (which apparently, he did).

Perfect!
I just noticed....isn't RD holding a gun under the table?
Josh Z's Avatar Josh Z 09:42 AM 07-30-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

As I say that shot, had it appeared in the film, would have become lost when cropped to 4:3; this would have been a big consideration on both the director's and cinematographer's mind at the time..

There are thousands of "scope" movies framed with important action at the edges that will be lost during pan&scan. That's really not something that most directors give much thought to on set. The pan&scan transfer is considered an abomination, not something they actively plan for.

Michael Mann actually had it written into his contract that Last of the Mohicans could only be released in letterbox format, even on VHS, because he couldn't stand pan&scan. I doubt how the scene would look in pan&scan was at the top of his mind when filming Heat.

Directors who worry about how their movies will look in pan&scan rarely shoot in anamorphic lens formats. They'll shoot with spherical lenses for 1.85:1 composition or Super 35.
protovision's Avatar protovision 03:22 PM 07-30-2009
Although this clip doesn't have the entrance or exit, it does have the conversation at the diner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYSzx_zy-98

d'ohh I coulda swore there were sideshots, but it is only reverse-angle shots as mentioned. It does look like they were both filmed at the same time, no stand-ins.
sb1's Avatar sb1 04:04 PM 07-30-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Perfect!
I just noticed....isn't RD holding a gun under the table?

Looks like it, but can't really tell. A little homage to Han and Greedo in that scene, perhaps?

* Then we'd have Mann's ultimate addition BD which shows Pacino shooting first instead.
Mr.D's Avatar Mr.D 04:40 PM 07-30-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post


The only shot in the entire movie where both actors are visible at the same time comes when Pacino pulls DeNiro over. Quite frankly, that might even be an optical composite.

Its not a comp. Diigital or optical.

The night-time ones outside De Niro's house are pretty poor though. I hope they take the opportunity to redo them.
Josh Z's Avatar Josh Z 10:13 AM 07-31-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Its not a comp. Diigital or optical.

I'll take your word for it. Nonetheless, you've got to admit that it's awfully fishy that the only shot in the movie to show both actors' faces is framed that way, with a significant gap and a clean division with blank background between the two. And one of the faces is out of focus.

I just don't understand what Mann was going for with either of these scenes.
md47's Avatar md47 11:30 PM 07-31-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post


The night-time ones outside De Niro's house are pretty poor though. I hope they take the opportunity to redo them.

yeah - i remember the scenes outdoors at judge amy's pad to be screwy like that, too.
buddywhite's Avatar buddywhite 02:47 PM 08-10-2009
Quote:
Several years back, Mann edited a 4-hour cut of the film intended for broadcast as a 2-part miniseries on NBC. Prior to airing, the network changed their mind and decided to condence the movie into a single 3-hour timeslot.

Given that the original version of the movie already ran 3-hours without commercials, that meant they they chopped about 45 minutes out of the theatrical cut.

Mann was livid and had his name removed from the credits. It aired with an "Allan Smithee" credit.

I do love this movie just the way it is. I for one does not want or need a longer cut.
Well not that I think we will ever get one, juss sayin
Pecker's Avatar Pecker 05:19 AM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

There are thousands of "scope" movies framed with important action at the edges that will be lost during pan&scan. That's really not something that most directors give much thought to on set. The pan&scan transfer is considered an abomination, not something they actively plan for.

Sadly, I disagree.

Having read what I have in books like John Belton's Widescreen Cinema, the Steve Neale & Murray Smith edited Contemporary Hollywood Cinema (especially Neale’s own contribution Widescreen Composition in the Age of Television), Geoff King’s New Hollywood Cinema and Peter Ward's Picture Composition for Film and Television, I understand that it goes on a lot.



Steve W
Pecker's Avatar Pecker 05:37 AM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Quote:


Have you ever seen Profondo Rosso cut to 4:3. The conversation across the market square is halarious - made more so by the subs appearing in the middle with apparently no actors speaking.

Steve W

Ha! Haven't seen that one. I do know there have been movies I've talked with friends about that I watched in 2.35:1 and they only saw the cropped version. I'd say something about an actor, and they'd wonder what the hell I was talking about - "that dude wasn't on the screen".

The original in 'scope:


Cropped to 4:3:




Steve W
Pecker's Avatar Pecker 05:43 AM 08-12-2009
Sorry that I didn't have time to post in more detail a few days ago about the coffee shop scene.

As I think most people know:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
A lot of the film (as with most MM films) is a discussion of the similarity between the two protagonists - in this case, despite being on opposing sides, De Niro & Pacino are very similar beasts.


The framing of the shots in the coffee shop scene is intended to underline this perception - the shots are quite close to being pov, so each actor looks at the other (with us, the viewer) and it's like they're looking into a mirror. The perception is that they're seeing themselves.

This is why the viewer is not given a two shot.

Steve W
Josh Z's Avatar Josh Z 09:20 AM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

The framing of the shots in the coffee shop scene is intended to underline this perception - the shots are quite close to being pov, so each actor looks at the other (with us, the viewer) and it's like they're looking into a mirror. The perception is that they're seeing themselves.

This is why the viewer is not given a two shot.

That may sound good on an intellectual level, but unfortunately it just doesn't work on a cinematic level in actual practice, IMO.
dvdmike007's Avatar dvdmike007 09:32 AM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

The original in 'scope:

PIX

Cropped to 4:3:

PIX



Steve W

That is insane !
sb1's Avatar sb1 10:00 AM 08-12-2009
^ Yeah, that's awful. Any dialogue going on at times like this would be ridiculous.
dvdmike007's Avatar dvdmike007 10:20 AM 08-12-2009
From the 2 disc JP OOP dvd

Disc One Dolby 5.1 @ 2.35:1

Disc Two DTS 5.1 @ 1.85:1







Worth it for the 1.5mbs DTS only, I am hoping this disc lives up to it so I can retire it and watch it in OAR with the best sound.
The transfer on both discs is very grain heavy, I hope Warner do not filter the hell out of it.

The matt was opened, so the scene would not suffer on a 16:9 transfer
oink's Avatar oink 11:12 AM 08-12-2009
^Thanx for the caps.

You know...the more I see non-OARs the more strongly I feel about it.

I WANT EVERY DAMN PIXEL!!!
STOP with this nonsense!
Axel's Avatar Axel 12:41 PM 08-12-2009
Is it clear what AR the BR release will be?
I am really hoping for scope, not 16:9.
____
Axel
dvdmike007's Avatar dvdmike007 01:39 PM 08-12-2009
Its Mann supervised, it will (thank god) be 'Scope

EDIT
Yep confirmed
Do we know what the content changes are yet ?


Dave Mack's Avatar Dave Mack 02:10 PM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by md47 View Post

yeah - i remember the scenes outdoors at judge amy's pad to be screwy like that, too.

i think that was a studio process (blue screen) shot scene
Axel's Avatar Axel 02:17 PM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Its Mann supervised, it will (thank god) be 'Scope

EDIT
Yep confirmed
Do we know what the content changes are yet ?


Excellent!! Time to place my pre-order now
____
Axel
sharkcohen's Avatar sharkcohen 02:43 PM 08-12-2009
What the hell does 'new content changes' mean?
sb1's Avatar sb1 03:16 PM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

What the hell does 'new content changes' mean?

The editing of the additional scenes into the movie? Don't know.

Were all those extras on the DVD? If not, maybe that's what they're talking about.
rdgrimes's Avatar rdgrimes 03:18 PM 08-12-2009
It does say "11 additional scenes".
dvdmike007's Avatar dvdmike007 04:53 PM 08-12-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

The editing of the additional scenes into the movie? Don't know.

Were all those extras on the DVD? If not, maybe that's what they're talking about.

Anyone own the DVD ? I missed it as I had the DTS disc
rdgrimes's Avatar rdgrimes 05:25 PM 08-12-2009
The case art above states "170 min". My DVD states "172 min".
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