Gladiator Master Blu-ray Comparison and Review Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #721 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pteittinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

Matt in my opinion you should have never stuck the RUMOR SPECULATION part in your post.

"Just the facts, ma'am."

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
pteittinen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #722 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Rowlander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

...Hell, the "other forum" is already imploding, and omits the specualtion part of the post, and now its flying across the net at warp speed.

You know... even if the whole story isn´t true... I´d be tempted to say: Serves Paramount right.

The more people know that this is a pebble, not a "Sapphire", the better.

I´m just wondering why this still has almost four and a half stars on Amazon.com.

I´m from Austria so ignore bad spelling and grammar, please. :)
Rowlander is offline  
post #723 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JeffY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 3,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
From what I have seen the broadcast versions aren't from a new master. If a new master exists the most likely source is for the 2005 (extended) DVD release. Usually when a catalogue title gets a new master it's for DVD, any HD release is secondary.
JeffY is offline  
post #724 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MovieSwede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North, south of the wall.
Posts: 6,756
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

From what I have seen the broadcast versions aren't from a new master. If a new master exists the most likely source is for the 2005 (extended) DVD release. Usually when a catalogue title gets a new master it's for DVD, any HD release is secondary.

If thats the case, the broadcast version should be perfect aligned with the BD.

I want my grain region free.
MovieSwede is offline  
post #725 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pteittinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

This is my take

Here's mine.

HD transfer #1 (2000): for theatrical version DVD release and HDTV broadcasts, your basic 2K transfer.
HD transfer #2 (2005): for extended DVD, with better scanner and post-production facilities.

Come 2008, early 2009, and studio starts work on the Blu-ray release. For some reason they have access to transfer #1 only and decide to run it through some software in the hopes of improving image quality. Enter the "human factor": someone goes medieval on software settings and stuff gets removed. QC department is too busy ogling porn on the internet, approves the result and the data is given to encoding department - who naturally trust the QC guys and do only what they're paid for.

Except... where did the extended scenes come from? Hmm. Oh well, never mind

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
pteittinen is offline  
post #726 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JeffY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 3,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
According to this source the 2005 extended edition did get a new master.

Quote:


Gladiator has been re-released in a handsome three-disc set from DreamWorks. This set includes both the theatrical cut and a newly assembled director's vision for the film that is 17 minutes longer. In both cases DreamWorks has gone back to the drawing board and remastered the image -- removing much of the heavy and distracting edge enhancement that accompanied its first release on DVD nearly four years ago.

JeffY is offline  
post #727 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:23 PM
Member
 
JPeezy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Because they (by and large) don't think that there's anything wrong with the PQ of this release.

This is exactly the target demographic the studios are increasingly catering to. Who cares if it's smudged and DNR'd to death? There are plenty who will buy it even if the PQ improvements over DVD are tenuous at best.

I don't think that's the case at all. People are taking the "wait and see" approach and not basing their entire opinion on a few still shots.
JPeezy13 is offline  
post #728 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JeffY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 3,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

If thats the case, the broadcast version should be perfect aligned with the BD.

The BD has been re-encoded from the same master, with plenty of digital processing.
JeffY is offline  
post #729 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:29 PM
Member
 
aramis109's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Because they (by and large) don't think that there's anything wrong with the PQ of this release.

This is exactly the target demographic the studios are increasingly catering to. Who cares if it's smudged and DNR'd to death? There are plenty who will buy it even if the PQ improvements over DVD are tenuous at best.

I think that's a bit of a blanket statement, don't you? Personally I'm reserving my judgement till I can see it with my own eyes. Let's not jump the gun here- not many people have even truly SEEN this thing yet.
aramis109 is offline  
post #730 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MovieSwede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North, south of the wall.
Posts: 6,756
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Here's mine.

HD transfer #1 (2000): for theatrical version DVD release and HDTV broadcasts, your basic 2K transfer.
HD transfer #2 (2005): for extended DVD, with better scanner and post-production facilities.

Come 2008, early 2009, and studio starts work on the Blu-ray release. For some reason they have access to transfer #1 only and decide to run it through some software in the hopes of improving image quality. Enter the "human factor": someone goes medieval on software settings and stuff gets removed. QC department is too busy ogling porn on the internet, approves the result and the data is given to encoding department - who naturally trust the QC guys and do only what they're paid for.

Sound plausible to you?

Nope, its more logic that the extended edition only exist in a mix quality format.

I share the same view Josh Z expressed on a different forum.

They never made a negative cut of the extended edition. Just adding scenes to the current master.

Theatrical cut = negative cut
Extended edition = digital cut

You could of course create a new better cut of the extended edition. But that would cost some money to do.

I want my grain region free.
MovieSwede is offline  
post #731 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
Beta Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 339
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Matt..... Cross-forum trolling.... I commend you.


We obviously all want the best release possible, but as stated before, I'll wait to see the actual BD before I make any final determinations. I agree however, based on the screenshots I've seen, it looks bleak.

Suggesting that people are happily lapping it up just because it's a marginal improvement to DVD simply isn't true.

I don't want to discuss Gladiator specifically because I haven't had it in my hands yet.

PATTON:

We all know what happened. Despite ridiculous amounts of DNR I still find it better than the DVD..... would I rather have a more faithful restoration??? OF COURSE. The problem "we" (being people who view audio/video as a hobby as opposed to casual observers) have, is the fact that the average Walmart shopper out there sees grain, and cries foul...... It's because of this, that the studios bastardize releases to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Thank god for Criterion..... at least when they release something, I don't need to scrutinize the image looking for EE and DNR.

Feel free to continue your bashing of Blu-ray.com I don't understand how so many people on both sides are unable to enter a discussion with an open mind.
Beta Man is offline  
post #732 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:32 PM
Member
 
jgamikos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Matt,

Who would you prefer to play you - Robert Redford or Dustin Hoffman?
jgamikos is offline  
post #733 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Blasst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: So.California
Posts: 3,491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

It's unlikely I'll get any more answers. Considering how insane the response has been already, I don't think my insider wants to say anymore. Can't blame him/her really.

However, from anothr source I have been told the current release was prepped for BD long ago (prior to Paramount suddenlydropping BD for a while), but has gone trough numerous changes, additions, etc. in regards to extras for the Crapphire series.

My email box is being flooded right now and I have even received some angry text messages on my phone. Unreal. There are a few people very mad at me right now for talking about this. I may have to shut up. Not complaining about tis. I thought it might happen. But good God, I figured I wouldn't have some of my other sources freaking out within minutes of my posting.


Matt,

Thanks for the info. Hopefully you'll be validated, since you really are walking the plank, speaking up about this.

"Crapphire series" gave me a nice chuckle.

So we have several AVS members who have watched Gladiator on BD, (Matt, Eric, and Xylon to cherry pick) and have shared with us their impressions on how it looks in motion.

More of us will be watching it in the next 5 days or so, and will be able to share our thoughts with theirs.

And if they are the same, then it will be time to get to work, and let the powers that be, know how we feel about it, in a nice constructive way.

The Mod Squad: New vs. Classic TV Series Opening https://vimeo.com/63119329
Blasst is offline  
post #734 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:34 PM
Member
 
Scarfather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Maybe so, but it isn't the point. The point is money was the primary power play here. They didn't spend the money to encode the newer, infinitely superior, un DVNR'd to heck transfer.

That's been my point all along. As a business they probably saw no need to go all out since the amount of people holding off would be minimal when compared to the majority of those that do not take the PQ issue seriously.

I would prefer to believe that if Paramount had full control of the transfer they would have chosen to do the same work they did for Braveheart.

Money talks people.
Scarfather is offline  
post #735 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Morpheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montreal by day, Paris by night...
Posts: 6,443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgamikos View Post

Matt,

Who would you prefer to play you - Robert Redford or Dustin Hoffman?

And for the first half of the movie, the young Matt: Zac Efron.
Morpheo is offline  
post #736 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
geekyglassesgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: too damn close to the arctic circle...
Posts: 1,092
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

And for the first half of the movie, the young Matt: Zac Efron.

nooooooo!!!!
geekyglassesgirl is offline  
post #737 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:38 PM
Member
 
aramis109's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Matt,

Thanks for the info. Hopefully you'll be validated, since you really are walking the plank, speaking up about this.

"Crapphire series" gave me a nice chuckle.

So we have several AVS members who have watched Gladiator on BD, (Matt, Eric, and Xylon to cherry pick) and have shared with us their impressions on how it looks in motion.

More of us will be watching it in the next 5 days or so, and will be able to share our thoughts with theirs.

And if they are the same, then it will be time to get to work, and let the powers that be, know how we feel about it, in a nice constructive way.

Good post. If it's truly like this I'll be picking up my official Gladiator pitchfork and torch with everyone else.
aramis109 is offline  
post #738 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:39 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beta Man View Post


Feel free to continue your bashing of Blu-ray.com I don't understand how so many people on both sides are unable to enter a discussion with an open mind.

Please get off of the high horse.

A quick perusal of the appropriate thread at Blu-Ray.com will show that they started bashing AVS members about this thread long before a single comment about that forum made its way here.

What is worse is that there have been plenty of members over there throwing fuel on the flame with ridiculous claims such as AVS being a "pro HD DVD" forum.

The folks on that forum have some growing up to do, so it would behoove you not to show up over here throwing rocks.
jmpage2 is offline  
post #739 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MovieSwede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North, south of the wall.
Posts: 6,756
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 35
I also would like to add before i go to bed.

The DNR and EE wasnt on the master, but added before encoding to compensate for the mixed quality footage. On DVD this wasnt obvious, so they "got away" with the lesser quality. Of course when you go HD mixed transfers gets even more obvious so they tried to compensate with EE and DNR.

So my end theory of today. Whats to blame here is that they wanted to release both cuts using seemless branching.

If they just had released the theatrical version. They would have had a negative cut, that is possible to remaster.

I want my grain region free.
MovieSwede is offline  
post #740 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:40 PM
Member
 
JPeezy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Matt,

Thanks for the info. Hopefully you'll be validated, since you really are walking the plank, speaking up about this.

"Crapphire series" gave me a nice chuckle.

So we have several AVS members who have watched Gladiator on BD, (Matt, Eric, and Xylon to cherry pick) and have shared with us their impressions on how it looks in motion.

More of us will be watching it in the next 5 days or so, and will be able to share our thoughts with theirs.

And if they are the same, then it will be time to get to work, and let the powers that be, know how we feel about it, in a nice constructive way.

Very nice post, it's nice to see one once in a while.
JPeezy13 is offline  
post #741 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Rowlander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

According to this source the 2005 extended edition did get a new master.

Would be interesting to see screenshots of that edition. I don´t think I have. Would there be a way to tell whether it is the HDTV/Blu-Ray master with only the extended scenes being actually "new" or an entirely new one?

If it´s impossible to tell the extended scenes apart from the theatrical ones, then that´s pretty much proof that a completeley new master for the entire movie exists.

Does anybody here have that edition? Is there a visible "jump" in quality?

I´m from Austria so ignore bad spelling and grammar, please. :)
Rowlander is offline  
post #742 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:40 PM
Member
 
aramis109's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Please get off of the high horse.

A quick perusal of the appropriate thread at Blu-Ray.com will show that they started bashing AVS members about this thread long before a single comment about that forum made its way here.

What is worse is that there have been plenty of members over there throwing fuel on the flame with ridiculous claims such as AVS being a "pro HD DVD" forum.

The folks on that forum have some growing up to do, so it would behoove you not to show up over here throwing rocks.


Just to be clear, your entire justification is, "They started it!" ???
aramis109 is offline  
post #743 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JeffY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 3,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Apparently the master used for the 2005 DVD release had a slightly different framing to the 2000 release, so it should be possible to tell which master the Blu-ray release came from.
JeffY is offline  
post #744 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:42 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis109 View Post

Just to be clear, your entire justification is, "They started it!" ???

My justification is that the entire AV enthusiast community, both AVS and blu-ray.com should be united in condemning this release, and pressuring Paramount to do a recall and issue this film in all of its real glory.

This idiotic bickering back and forth accomplishes nothing.

From the full motion clips we've seen and especially the stills this release is an abomination.

Even if DNR and EE don't rock your world, entire large numbers of SFX elements missing from shots should bother you, in a big way.
jmpage2 is offline  
post #745 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:44 PM
Member
 
aramis109's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

This idiotic bickering back and forth accomplishes nothing.

I'll certainly agree with this part of your post. What's boggling is that you took umbrage to the bickering but got in some of your own while you were at it.

I've been hoping the bickering will tone down. It's amusing to have an "arch rival" but some of that is going way too far.
aramis109 is offline  
post #746 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Urza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

And for the first half of the movie, the young Matt: Zac Efron.


Not a blind buy for me, too much DNR

I'd love to get my hands on a Blu Monster's Ball.-LilStinky

Refering to a possible release of said movie on BD LOL
Urza is offline  
post #747 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pteittinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis109 View Post

Just to be clear, your entire justification is, "They started it!" ???

It started several years ago. I'm pretty sure nobody knows who "started it".

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
pteittinen is offline  
post #748 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Josh Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Planet Boston, source of the spice, Melange.
Posts: 19,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Again, I don't understand what is so hard about this.

New transfer was made. Extended scenes were mastered at the same time.

BD release uses the older transfer and encode and just snags the extended scenes as extras for this Sapphire release.

Exact reasons behind why the new transfer were not used are speculation.

Sorry, Matt. I don't mean for this to seem like we're all piling on you, but I just can't buy this story you've been told.

The much more likely scenario is that Universal transferred the individual pieces of footage needed for the Extended Cut separately when creating that version of the movie, and then spliced them into their existing master for the bulk of the movie. Most "Extended Cuts" are created in the video realm, not film. Because there was a several year difference between when some of the footage was scanned versus the rest, the transfer quality is different.

I doubt that either studio is sitting on a brand new transfer for the entire movie that they're refusing to release. And I can't put any stock in the claim that they've withheld such a thing out of spite due to the format war, which is frankly just ludicrous.

Josh Z
Writer/Editor, High-Def Digest (Blog updated daily!)
Curator, Laserdisc Forever

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers.

Josh Z is online now  
post #749 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Beta Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 339
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Please get off of the high horse.

A quick perusal of the appropriate thread at Blu-Ray.com will show that they started bashing AVS members about this thread long before a single comment about that forum made its way here.

What is worse is that there have been plenty of members over there throwing fuel on the flame with ridiculous claims such as AVS being a "pro HD DVD" forum.

The folks on that forum have some growing up to do, so it would behoove you not to show up over here throwing rocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

My justification is that the entire AV enthusiast community, both AVS and blu-ray.com should be united in condemning this release, and pressuring Paramount to do a recall and issue this film in all of its real glory.

This idiotic bickering back and forth accomplishes nothing.

From the full motion clips we've seen and especially the stills this release is an abomination.

Even if DNR and EE don't rock your world, entire large numbers of SFX elements missing from shots should bother you, in a big way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beta Man View Post


Feel free to continue your bashing of Blu-ray.com I don't understand how so many people on both sides are unable to enter a discussion with an open mind.


I didn't realize I was "coming over here to throw rocks"

I defended AVS against blanket statements made about them on Blu-ray.com, and I think the same blanket statements about Blu-ray.com here are unwarranted.

Sometimes reading posts here is unbearable because of the residual hate for Blu-ray, just as Blu-ray.com was unbearable during the "format war" when I repeatedly ridiculed for owning an HD DVD player..... I like film.... so I buy films, and machines that will play them.... I've been "neutral" since day one..... you're going on the attack for your own amusement at this point.
Beta Man is offline  
post #750 of 2846 Old 08-27-2009, 01:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pteittinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

And I can't put any stock in the claim that they've withheld such a thing out of spite due to the format war, which is frankly just ludicrous.

It wasn't a claim, it was speculation. You missed the "speculation starts here" bit, too

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
pteittinen is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Software

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off