The Terminator (1984) - 4 DVDs vs Blu-ray comparison PIX - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 541 Old 09-27-2012, 06:02 PM
 
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I mentioned no names nor the way round the accounts are
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post #452 of 541 Old 09-27-2012, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

When did that happen?

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Terminator-Blu-ray/117/#Review
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Presented in 1.85:1 high definition 1080p, I must admit that I was not vastly impressed with the image found on this Blu-ray disc. Granted, the film is more than twenty years old, but this particular print used for the transfer was in less than ideal condition. There were severe and clearly discernible instances of scratches and speckles all over the place. There is a great deal more clarity here than on previous editions, however, so much so that many of the phony looking special effects look even phonier in high definition. Black levels are not entirely solid, bordering on dark gray at times, but I've seen much worse on many newer titles (such as in Broken Arrow). Overall the image quality is sufficient. It's certainly better than its recent DVD counterparts, but not overwhelmingly so. I don't think The Terminator will ever look much better than it does here. It's also the best the film has ever looked and these two factors make this image quality score better than it probably should.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/dvdreviews32/terminator_blu-ray.htm
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The Terminator is a high voltage thriller on a budget (less than 10% of the sequel.) At times, the effects are about as convincing as animé. But once we get past the futuristic introductory material and the setting up and dispatching of the doomed roommate (which has uncomfortable tinges of a garden variety slasher movie), Cameron and his cast rise to the occasion with intense action sequences and smart writing (Kyle: "Cyborgs don't feel pain. I do." Sarah: "Come on. Do I look like the mother of the future? I mean, am I tough, organized? I can't even balance my checkbook.") The Blu-ray manages to reproduce the dated quality of the production without making me ache for more. I am led to believe I am seeing this movie in as good a transfer as I ever shall, so I sit back and enjoy the ride.

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post #453 of 541 Old 09-27-2012, 08:22 PM
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Those caps look excellent, hope there isn't much by way of "frozen Lowry fields" when viewed in motion. Very glad to see they corrected the red push from the earlier releases.
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post #454 of 541 Old 09-27-2012, 09:52 PM
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screens look beautiful. no more red push and no more red faces. I thought Cameron liked to degrain though? See lots of grain, fake or not, in the screens.
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post #455 of 541 Old 09-27-2012, 10:21 PM
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I've looked at the shots and the grain does not look fake to me. Such a filter only impacts a low res image and there's clearly a real resolution increase here.

To be fair, it's on old BD and there weren't many proper transfers on blu back then. Because once you see one proper transfer of a film, it exemplifies what any other movie shot on that film can and should look like. Now that we have so many more examples (this, Evil Dead, Sound of Music), reviewers no longer have an excuse to be handing out high marks to old blurry transfers.

Dillon: My men were in that chopper when it got hit! Hopper's orders were to go in and remove grain and the detail just disappeared.
Dutch: It didn't disappear. It was scrubbed alive!
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post #456 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 02:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FitzRoy View Post

I've looked at the shots and the grain does not look fake to me. Such a filter only impacts a low res image and there's clearly a real resolution increase here.
To be fair, it's on old BD and there weren't many proper transfers on blu back then. Because once you see one proper transfer of a film, it exemplifies what any other movie shot on that film can and should look like. Now that we have so many more examples (this, Evil Dead, Sound of Music), reviewers no longer have an excuse to be handing out high marks to old blurry transfers.


But did you see this post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elario View Post

Just for a laugh, here is the old US Bluray, vs the exact same screenshot with some basic tweaks (unsharp, colour, contrast, noise added).
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/147880
Im not saying this looks good or anything, it was a quick 30 second job in GIMP, im just trying to illustrate you how Lowry uses fake grain to trick your eye into seeing finer detail than is really there. You see pixel sized 'grain' so your brain thinks there is pixel-level detail.
And mine was very crudely done using the already DNR'd and badly encoded US BD. Imagine if I had done it on the master for the old Bluray, before the DNR.



Reviews have always been a joke in my eyes
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post #457 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 02:34 AM
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Good morning dvdmike007.
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post #458 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 03:22 AM
 
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post #459 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 03:27 AM
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Excellent example to illustrate the fact that Lowry only deal in reference quality.
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post #460 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 03:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supersonic395 View Post

Excellent example to illustrate the fact that Lowry only deal in reference quality.

I made that screenshot in photoshop from the old master.


game set and match.
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post #461 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 03:48 AM
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Lol tongue.gif


(Continuing your daily diet of trolling me wink.gif)
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post #462 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 04:09 AM
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You're only trolling yourself, son.
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post #463 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 07:46 AM
 
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Failed how? I think it was quite successful thanks and shows in 5 mins how I got the old master pretty damn close
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post #464 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 08:21 AM
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I found this over on blu-ray.com in the United Kingdom forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HE1NZ;6527767 
Bad news. 5.1 mix is same old stuff. No metal screeching, shotgun and rifle sound are occasionally incorrect.

They're also didn't fix production goofs like strings and stuff (unlike Aliens which were corrected). You can still see a guy lifting the terminator from fire.

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post #465 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 08:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Mike, do the new European releases have a new transfer? It's a yes, or no question.

I was not aware I ever debated that, but in your twisted world anything is possible
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post #466 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 08:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Paul Arnette View Post

I found this over on blu-ray.com in the United Kingdom forum:
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post #467 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette View Post

I found this over on blu-ray.com in the United Kingdom forum:
frown.gif
Lies. Cameron's a genius and a perfectionist. He's never let that **** slide.

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post #468 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 09:07 AM
 
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Lies. Cameron's a genius and a perfectionist. He's never let that **** slide.
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How dare you slight the one true Cameron
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post #469 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 09:15 AM
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The Passion of The Cameron.

Btw, can you see Arnold's eyes in previous iterations of this scene?

http://www.imagebam.com/image/cddbc1212597775
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post #470 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 09:30 AM
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Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

And this was personally supervised by James Cameron, frame by frame most likely. He's a perfectionists. Has he had a bad release yet on Blu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Wrong again. Lightstorm (Cameron's very own company) has been restoring The Terminator from Lowry's 4K scan since at the very latest, 2008. Cameron was there every step of the way. The man is a perfectionist.
And finally, after spending so much time, Cameron no doubt has improved the 5.1 mix. Lightstorm/Skywalker Sound will most certainly have restored the missing layers of Fidel's score and fixed the switched shotgun/rifle sound effects. Now the re-recorded sound effects will most probably remain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

As for being serious, of course I am! Are you guys telling me that Cameron will not address some of these issues I've mentioned after working on something for 4-5 years? The biggest perfectionist on the planet?
.... The 5.1 mix will be improved. I'd bet on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Working right now to confirm if the 5.1 mix has been fixed (it's already confirmed that the mono track has not been included). My personal guess it that it has indeed been fixed. There's no way that Cameron would spend nearly 5 years doing such a beautiful restoration and not fix blatant mistakes like layers of the score missing, or the shotgun/rifle effects swapped. Will post here as soon as I have 100% confirmation.
The new color timing is flawless. The skin tones are 100% right on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

There's probably not a more reliable person on the planet than Cameron.

For all the crowing about the transfer and JC being a perfectionist, someone has been pretty mum about the inclusion of the same imperfect 5.1 mix. Could have sworn they were certain it would be redone along with the transfer.rolleyes.gif
I'm sure there will be nice and tidy rational to justify the final result.

Best Regards
KvE
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post #471 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 10:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
For all the crowing about the transfer and JC being a perfectionist, someone has been pretty mum about the inclusion of the same imperfect 5.1 mix. Could have sworn they were certain it would be redone along with the transfer.rolleyes.gif
I'm sure there will be nice and tidy rational to justify the final result.
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post #472 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

But did you see this post?

Yeah... you applied a thick layer of noise to the image which looks nothing like real grain. You're just trading blurriness for fake definition and it shows.

Dillon: My men were in that chopper when it got hit! Hopper's orders were to go in and remove grain and the detail just disappeared.
Dutch: It didn't disappear. It was scrubbed alive!
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post #473 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 10:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FitzRoy View Post

Yeah... you applied a thick layer of noise to the image which looks nothing like real grain. You're just trading blurriness for fake definition and it shows.

That was not mine in the post I quoted
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post #474 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 10:44 AM
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No surprise they didn't fix they sound. It's maddening. Buyer beware.

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post #475 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

No surprise they didn't fix they sound. It's maddening. Buyer beware.
I am waiting for more reports before making a determination on the audio.wink.gif

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post #476 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 11:01 AM
 
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I am waiting for more reports before making a determination on the audio.wink.gif

I can rip the disc and upload a clip if you want a particular scene
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post #477 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 11:04 AM
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I consider myself very picky regarding picture and audio quality. For instance, I see all sorts of problems with the Star Wars saga, the Bond set and even the filtering in Titanic and Jaws. That being said, from the caps posted here, the PQ for the Terminator seems to be amazing (color change notwithstanding).

The grain looks like real grain as in Aliens and nothing like the manipulations of the old transfer seen here. Despite JC claims, I don't think either of these (Aliens and The Terminatior) were actually degrained and re-grained. The results look nothing like the Bond films, Grease or many others that have suffered from this sort of 'digital mastering'.

IMO, they look like the Evil Dead, Sound Of Music and many other great new transfers. The color grading shift doesn't please me, but at least it seems to tolerable.

Now, the big letdown and what concerns me the most now is the audio track.

To mux the video stream from this release with the LD PCM track would be a dream come true (I could say the same about Jaws).
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post #478 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBC View Post

The grain looks like real grain as in Aliens and nothing like the manipulations of the old transfer seen here. Despite JC claims, I don't think either of these (Aliens and The Terminatior) were actually degrained and re-grained. The results look nothing like the Bond films, Grease or many others that have suffered from this sort of 'digital mastering'.
If they are, they did a pretty remarkable job keeping it transparent, though if they regrained it with something that looks exactly like 80s grain I'm sure what the point would be.
Oddly I think the original Alien has more visible Lowry processing artifacts despite Cameron's claims of "degraining" everything. That movie has some mild digital weirdness going on under a faux-grain patina.
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post #479 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FitzRoy View Post

Yeah... you applied a thick layer of noise to the image which looks nothing like real grain. You're just trading blurriness for fake definition and it shows.

It was not an attempt to look like 'real grain'. It was not a serious attempt at anything since it was knocked up in a few seconds on my browsing machine.

It was simply an illustration of an visual trick - when you add pixel-size artifical grain (in this example I used a crude noise filter because it was all I had handy on my browsing machine), it tricks the eye into seeing more detail than is really there.
If I spent a few more minutes doing something properly, I guarantee I could post it on a lesser forum and for sure some people would say "oh yes! looks much better and with more detail!"

In the industry, it is a well known phenomenon. It is primarily used when creating a HD release from an older digital scan that did not resolve grain well in the first place.

If you are already aware of the phenomenon and its use then you don't need to comment. The example was not an attempt to 'do it properly' rather just a quick illustration.
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post #480 of 541 Old 09-28-2012, 12:03 PM
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I'm not happy with the colors. Everything else (visually) looks pretty great though. I wouldn't have minded a slight tweaking of the original colors - I've never been a fan of the red push and I was kind of okay with the Aliens transfer (though I've changed my mind a bit over time) because I saw it as just correcting that. But this is going to far. This isn't correcting a red push, it's flat out bathing the image in teal.

That anyone could have the nerve to claim that the skin tones are in any way natural is simply astounding to me.

The soundtrack, on the other hand... that's just ridiculous. No excuse for either a) not fixing the 5.1 mix or b) not providing the original audio mix as an option. At least one of those should have been done and neither was. It's disgraceful.

Are there any BD versions readily available that contain the original mono mix? I want to just be happy with the new scan because that part looks great but I'm not sure if I can justify purchasing this disc when I know I'll be constantly distracted by the colors.
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