Warning: FORTUNE STAR BD releases are upconverts! Don't be fooled - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Fortune Star has begun releasing Blu-Ray's of classic films like ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA and Jackie Chan's POLICE STORY. However, they are upconverts!

Do not fall for this false advertising. They are not high definition transfers. They are the 480i transfer, but upconverted and with additional layers of EE and DNR. The results are truly horrific.

You have been warned.

http://adg.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3056

http://adg.invisionzone.com/index.ph...pic=2961&st=60

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post #2 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 07:42 AM
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My.. GOD!!! Send these to the detention room after school, with bad boys like GANGS OF NEW YORK and ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK.
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post #3 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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At least GANG OF NEW YORK was actual High Def before it was mangled.

These are 480i upconverted.


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post #4 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 08:13 AM
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Matt, talk about timely...I was just about to order both Blu-rays from DDDHouse. Thanks for the warning. Just unbelievable!

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post #5 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 08:20 AM
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Truly horrible, it's not even a good transfer as far as SD is concerned.
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post #6 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 08:26 AM
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That is both funny and shameful.
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post #7 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 08:47 AM
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Thanks Matt for the heads-up.

Its been confirmed by several folks at blu-ray dot com about the mediocre Video quality.

The top execs who decided to release these abysmal transfers to Blu should be penalized and fired.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #8 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 09:09 AM
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The Big Boss is an upconvert?

That's not what I heard.

The title makes it sound like every Fortune Star title is an upconvert.
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post #9 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The BRUCE LEE releases do appear to be 1080i transfers (not 1080p) that have baked in heavy DNR. The original soundtracks (Cantonese, Mandarin and English) are missing. Only fake sounding remixes are included.

Again... Buyer beware.

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post #10 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 04:00 PM
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Bought Police Story anyways as I don't have the DVD and this would be the only version I have. It certainly isn't worth an upgrade though if I already had the DVD set.

At this point don't think I will order Once Upon A Time in China.
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post #11 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Thanks Matt for the heads-up.

Its been confirmed by several folks at blu-ray dot com about the mediocre Video quality.

The top execs who decided to release these abysmal transfers to Blu should be penalized and fired.

or just shot for putting out such mediocre product that it shames the country.
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post #12 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

The BRUCE LEE releases do appear to be 1080i transfers (not 1080p) that have baked in heavy DNR. The original soundtracks (Cantonese, Mandarin and English) are missing. Only fake sounding remixes are included.

Again... Buyer beware.

Nope they are 1080p with pretty light DNR. The Big Boss actually looks pretty darn good. Fist of Fury looks ok but its very soft. It looks like they only had a low quality print to work with. Both do have those horrible new sound mixes.
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post #13 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 04:33 PM
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Seeing the Bruce Lee stuff and Kam & Ronson's previous efforts like Accidental Spy, I want to know what happened here. Police Story doesn't even have a DNR problem as suggested, it has a bloody SD problem. It is a lie as far as I can see. There's more grain or whatever it is in the image compared to the DVD , but otherwise it's exactly the same.

Better get a bucket ready for those OUATIC shots, is this some kind of a joke to Kam & Ronson? Wake up fellas, you're one Blu-ray away from never selling another. And that would be bad for all future catalogue titles, as they'll incorrectly gauge market demand to not exist for them. I mean, end users right, all they want is 1080p and 7.1 on the package and they'll buy at a high price.
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post #14 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 04:35 PM
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Pathetic. I know that HK cinema has not traditionally taken care of their film prints, but this is ridiculous. I guess I'll just throw out my hope to have the Jackie Chan library (including a non-butchered Drunken Master 2) out the window.
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post #15 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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The Bruce Lee transfer are 1080i converted to 1080p. If anyone wants them, fine, they do look better than the DVD's. The sound mixes SUCK. They are @ss.

The POLICE STORY and OUATIC BD's are an abomination. It should be against the Blu-Ray specs to do this because it is false advertising. It's fraud.

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post #16 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 08:57 PM
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I don't quite understand what everyone means by "a 1080i transfer"
Why would that matter, wouldn't the studio 3/2 deinterlace it to 1080p at 24.973hz?
I must be misunderstanding some aspect of how a film can TRUELY be interlaced.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #17 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 09:38 PM
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Where are you getting your info (everything Fortune Star releases on BD is upconverted, Bruce Lee stuff is 1080i etc.,) from?

The reason I ask is because I have seen plenty of Big Boss stuff and it actually looks very impressive all things considered.
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post #18 of 32 Old 09-22-2009, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Fortune Star has begun releasing Blu-Ray's of classic films like ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA and Jackie Chan's POLICE STORY. However, they are upconverts!

Do not fall for this false advertising. They are not high definition transfers. They are the 480i transfer, but upconverted and with additional layers of EE and DNR. The results are truly horrific.

You have been warned.

http://adg.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3056

http://adg.invisionzone.com/index.ph...pic=2961&st=60

Dammit!

Some of these catalog titles being released recently are doing no favors for BD.

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post #19 of 32 Old 09-23-2009, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins View Post

Where are you getting your info (everything Fortune Star releases on BD is upconverted, Bruce Lee stuff is 1080i etc.,) from?

The reason I ask is because I have seen plenty of Big Boss stuff and it actually looks very impressive all things considered.

I am not at liberty to say. Sorry. I am not saying the Bruce Lee releases do not look good. To me they have too much DNR, but they are way way better than the DVD's. However, the sound is horrendous. My laserdiscs are vastly superior. Combine the two and these releases would be OK.

The primary purpose for this thread is to warn about POLICE STORY and OUATIC. They are 480i upconverted to 108op.

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post #20 of 32 Old 09-23-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

I am not at liberty to say.

Hahaha, you say this every time. You're not at liberty to say? Why, would the Triads chase you naked through the streets? I just realized that you were the same guy that sent me a string of nutty emails following the Gladiator thing that demanded an apology from me (?) and said that in a few days everything you said would be verified by "other journalists" (which never happened) and that I would have "egg on my face" (I have no idea why, I just asked for even a tiny amount proof to back up what you were saying.) You said there was a brand new transfer (apart from the original and subsequent extended edition DVD transfer) that Paramount was [inexplicably] sitting on for reasons "I can't tell you about."

I don't know about the other Fortune Star movies you're talking about (and it definitely is useful info for people who were planning on picking those two up expecting an upgrade over the DVD releases, I'm not saying it isn't) and it sucks that they're of terrible quality, but the title kind of puts all of their releases under that same umbrella. To title a thread "Warning: FORTUNE STAR BD releases are upconverts! Don't be fooled" and then to say it's only about two releases many posts down in misleading. To just start throwing out questionable information and then to say "I'm not at liberty to say" when someone questions it is just hard to take seriously.

The Big Boss stuff I've seen is actually quite visually impressive. Relatively minimal DNR use, acutally given the source it looks like a shokingly positive transfer (soundtrack issues aside.) I'm not saying the things you're saying aren't or can't be true, I'm asking you why you're saying they are true - what proof you have. Anyone can make accusations, and anyone can say "I can't tell you that" when asked to explain their accusations. It would be like Xylon making all of his screenshot threads without actual screenshots....
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post #21 of 32 Old 09-23-2009, 08:25 PM
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Wow, what a shocker! Hong Kong film distributors are unscrupulous, money-grubbing liars!!

Considering that it was only through the aggressive campaigning of top HK stars and film-makers that Hong Kong began an actual film archive. So don't expect any of that country's many masterpieces to be in a great condition for HD transfers.

Forgive my cynicism. But as a life-long HK film fanatic I know exactly what the attitude among producers and distributors is for their product. So I won't be holding out for any kind of definitive HD transfers of any Hong Kong classics.

That is, unless the prints are owned and controlled by mega-stars like Jackie Chan and Stephen Chow Sing-Chi. I mean, even Tsui Hark can't put together his director's cut of SEVEN SWORDS because the producers don't give the slightest damn about putting the money into doing it.
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post #22 of 32 Old 10-02-2009, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric.exe View Post

Nope they are 1080p with pretty light DNR. The Big Boss actually looks pretty darn good. Fist of Fury looks ok but its very soft. It looks like they only had a low quality print to work with. Both do have those horrible new sound mixes.

I just received these two and agree with you 100%.

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post #23 of 32 Old 10-02-2009, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash Bailey View Post

Wow, what a shocker! Hong Kong film distributors are unscrupulous, money-grubbing liars!!

Considering that it was only through the aggressive campaigning of top HK stars and film-makers that Hong Kong began an actual film archive. So don't expect any of that country's many masterpieces to be in a great condition for HD transfers.

Forgive my cynicism. But as a life-long HK film fanatic I know exactly what the attitude among producers and distributors is for their product. So I won't be holding out for any kind of definitive HD transfers of any Hong Kong classics.

That is, unless the prints are owned and controlled by mega-stars like Jackie Chan and Stephen Chow Sing-Chi. I mean, even Tsui Hark can't put together his director's cut of SEVEN SWORDS because the producers don't give the slightest damn about putting the money into doing it.

If this holds true for most of the classic films from Hong Kong, it will be a sad day, as there are many great titles from there that I'm hoping were kept protected from being damaged.

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post #24 of 32 Old 10-03-2009, 04:21 AM
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Wrt Cash's post quoted above: that's the big one isn't it? Not if Police Story and OUATIC are bad, but WHY exactly they are bad. Looking at the two Lee's it doesn't seem like the distrib/publisher chain (FS and Kam&Ronson) has a habit of doing SD. And that's what those two look like, not just bad old HK stuff, like DVD.

We expect bad old HK stuff in high def, warts and all. We don't expect upscaled DVD. Two different things.

If however what we see here are really FS's new HD masters and you're right Cash, if it's really down to the prints, then so be it. I'm not going to wait for it or delude myself, but after swapping BDs and DVDs for PS and OUATIC for an evening, there's evidence to support both theories.

First the encodes look very different from the DVDs on both. PS has a lot more grain in it, OUATIC less grain, much less noise and print damage and visible DNR. To counter that they both produce the same EE as the DVDs. Exactly the same not only in amount, but in look. In HD, EE will typically be thinner and clearer, DVD is blotchy and fat. Looking at the letterboxing the EE is blotchy, blurry and fat, identical to the DVDs. There's not only little detail (print), the lines aren't as clear and defined as they'd be in HD. This is obvious as early as the opening logos. On the other hand there were a few scenes where I could reproduce detail in OUATIC that I couldn't on the DVD.

All of this is pure conjecture, but it looks like they're derived from the same master as the DVDs, which weren't real HD. Better encodes and tons more headroom afford them small amounts of added detail or grain while retaining the shortcomings of an edge enhanced SD source.
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post #25 of 32 Old 10-10-2009, 03:25 PM
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Here are two Shots of PS from german DVD forum Cinefacts which I did myself:

Bluray:
http://forum.cinefacts.de/attachment...y-anime-bd.jpg

DVD:
http://forum.cinefacts.de/attachment...-anime-dvd.jpg
LL
LL
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post #26 of 32 Old 10-10-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

That is both funny and shameful.

Mostly shameful IMO. Seems like there ought to be some sort of BD Association fine for that kind of thing as a disservice to the format.
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post #27 of 32 Old 10-10-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I don't quite understand what everyone means by "a 1080i transfer"
Why would that matter, wouldn't the studio 3/2 deinterlace it to 1080p at 24.973hz?
I must be misunderstanding some aspect of how a film can TRUELY be interlaced.

Correct, an undoctored 1080i can be deinterlaced to 1080p, but typically the 1080i masters were vertically filtered to minimize jaggies when displayed (due to inherent temporal shift between field scans with 1080i cameras). Once that has been done, the master is permanently damaged (the master cannot be de-filtered) and so the only solution is to go back to the pre-filtered elements and construct a new master. However, that costs much more than to just ignore the issue and de-interlace the damaged master.
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post #28 of 32 Old 12-23-2009, 11:20 PM
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Glad I saw this thread, I had the Once Upon a Time in China and Police Story trilogies in my cart at Yes Asia.

Is there online evidence that the OUATIC trilogy is like Police Story though? HK movies are extremely frustrating to like lol. Even when/if they get a domestic release, their likely to suck major ass(see Lionsgates New Police Story release), so we're just left hoping for a magical British or decent HK distributor to get a hold of them.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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post #29 of 32 Old 12-24-2009, 02:49 AM
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The classic HK movies were shot on a budget that most Hollywood producers of the era would laugh at, on cheap film stock, quickly cut for release, and pushed out to theaters with little or no archiving done. Many HK flicks from the 90's hardcore action era are therefore lost forever simply because nobody cared enough to vault anything. There is nothing to do a new transfer from, so it's possible SD upconverts are all there will ever be for a lot of HK flicks.
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post #30 of 32 Old 12-24-2009, 05:38 AM
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And where did the SD versions come from? The remastered SD versions, to be precise (they do have a line of purely SD "remasters" as well). Being shot on a budget and insufficient storage don't explain upscaling SD masters you obviously had a source for, did recent work on and called HD remasters. If the quality were simply not up to par and the film source in bad shape I'd see your point, but the complaint here is something very specific beyond that.

I'm in this with all my love and enthusiasm as well (I bought the first of each), but these don't deserve excuses.
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