How The Grinch Stole Christmas Blu-ray - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 10-06-2009, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Did anyone pick this up today? Wondering about transfer, extras, etc. Screen shots would be great. Thanks!
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post #2 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 06:44 PM
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DVD Beaver has some screenshots and review up.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe...as_blu-ray.htm

Personally, I'm disgusted. I've watched this classic every Christmas for over 40 years, and the colors on the Blu-ray are just plain WRONG. Ludicrously wrong. I would take a million Pattons over this.
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post #3 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

DVD Beaver has some screenshots and review up.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe...as_blu-ray.htm

Personally, I'm disgusted. I've watched this classic every Christmas for over 40 years, and the colors on the Blu-ray are just plain WRONG. Ludicrously wrong. I would take a million Pattons over this.

Honestly speaking,I ain't Jim Carey's fan.This film was boring to me but will wait for Chrismal Carol this winter.
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post #4 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 08:07 PM
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The transfer looks pretty good however it seems there was a yellowish tone in the original but now it's a neon green. Maybe too green. If I hadn't compared these side by side then maybe it might not be so obvious.
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post #5 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 08:11 PM
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Not sure if I would have noticed the neon lights in this one if not for the side by side comparison shots. Seeing as it's been around 10 months since I last saw this, I can't remember what it looked like the last time I watched it on tv, but I will say the blu-ray colors do seem too intense.
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post #6 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 09:32 PM
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I'm looking at my recording of last year's ABC broadcast on my computer right now. It's the actual data stream recorded via a USB HD tuner. The colors match the screenshots of the Blu-ray version in the DVD Beaver review.
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post #7 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

I'm looking at my recording of last year's ABC broadcast on my computer right now. It's the actual data stream recorded via a USB HD tuner. The colors match the screenshots of the Blu-ray version in the DVD Beaver review.

Gee, in my 40 odd years of watching this, I don't recall the Grinch being the color of radioactive lime Jello.
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post #8 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by butsu View Post

Honestly speaking,I ain't Jim Carey's fan.This film was boring to me but will wait for Chrismal Carol this winter.

Wrong Grinch. This is the animated classic, not the Jim CarreyRon Howard crap version.
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post #9 of 30 Old 10-07-2009, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Gee, in my 40 odd years of watching this, I don't recall the Grinch being the color of radioactive lime Jello.

I think they too some license there, too much in fact
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post #10 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Gee, in my 40 odd years of watching this, I don't recall the Grinch being the color of radioactive lime Jello.

True. But I also don't remember him being dijon mustard colour, like the DVD.

In terms of LFE, size does matter!
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post #11 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Favelle View Post

True. But I also don't remember him being dijon mustard colour, like the DVD.

The DVD is closer to reality, though.

Look at the shot of the Grinch holding up the dog eye to eye. In the DVD shot, the dog is brown, like he should be. In the Blu-ray, he looks olive colored. Obviously wrong. In that DVD shot, the color of the Grinch is MUCH closer to what I've always remembered. The Blu-ray version is way, waaaaaay off. Quite sad really.
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post #12 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

I'm looking at my recording of last year's ABC broadcast on my computer right now. It's the actual data stream recorded via a USB HD tuner. The colors match the screenshots of the Blu-ray version in the DVD Beaver review.

They were showing the same print used for the Blu-ray, which is also the same print used for the 2006 deluxe edition SD-DVD. There are valid arguments on which color scheme is correct either way, but I think the old print is at least as inaccurate as the new, due to obvious discoloration from age, so the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the old print and the new. I do find the new print quite striking, though...
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post #13 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 05:11 AM
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You can't really tell it from the DVD Beaver caps, but the Grinch's color on the '99 edition is pretty inconsistent -- most of the time it's the green-yellow shade you see in the caps, but sometimes it's more yellow and sometimes it's basically green (although never the "neon green" seen in the '06/Blu versions). That said, this may well have been the way it was originally animated (little inconsistencies like that were pretty typical of TV animation).
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post #14 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

The DVD is closer to reality, though.

Look at the shot of the Grinch holding up the dog eye to eye. In the DVD shot, the dog is brown, like he should be. In the Blu-ray, he looks olive colored. Obviously wrong. In that DVD shot, the color of the Grinch is MUCH closer to what I've always remembered. The Blu-ray version is way, waaaaaay off. Quite sad really.

I think you're off base with your color comments. Cartoons are not meant to be a reflection of "reality". Also, why do you assume that the DVD is an accurate color reference? Someone at HTF found this picture of a Grinch animation cel:



I'd say that's rather convincing evidence that it's the BLU RAY that's more faithful to the original look. Like I said, just because it doesn't match the look of older video formats does NOT automatically mean that they must be "right" and the BR must be "wrong".
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post #15 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Average View Post

You can't really tell it from the DVD Beaver caps, but the Grinch's color on the '99 edition is pretty inconsistent -- most of the time it's the green-yellow shade you see in the caps, but sometimes it's more yellow and sometimes it's basically green (although never the "neon green" seen in the '06/Blu versions). That said, this may well have been the way it was originally animated (little inconsistencies like that were pretty typical of TV animation).

And sometimes intentional as well. A particularly noteworthy example is Don Bluth's THE SECRET OF NIMH, in which the central character, Mrs. Brisby, had something approaching a dozen different shades of fur, carefully tailored to the lighting situation in each scene. Such subtleties were, I'm told, lost on the colourist responsible for one of the US VHS or DVD releases (I forget which), which "corrected" the fur to look the same shade in every scene, undoing all the hard work of the film's artists.

In the case of the Grinch, I'd take the yellowy-brown look of the older DVD over the newer neon green look any day of the week. Frankly, I refuse to believe that a man like Chuck Jones would intend for it to look so damn TASTELESS, for want of a better word. I wonder if what has happened is that those responsible for the new master have matched the colours to the original animation cels, ignoring the fact that the artists working on these films KNEW that, due to a multitude of factors, the colours people saw on the screen would not exactly match the colours on the cels, and adjusted their palettes as appropriate.

Similar questions arose with the BD release of SLEEPING BEAUTY, and I think it's worthwhile my linking to the post I made about it at the time and the comments from various animation professionals and/or experts about the issue.

Quote:


Maurice Noble once explained to me how he would over saturate the colors in a character or a scene to compensate for the inferiority of the film. Once on film, the color would be toned down to about what he intended. This is where you could run into a problem during restoration.

NB: Maurice Noble was the art director on the Grinch.

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The true reference point for restoration is a primary color film positive source, not the original animation art.

Studios such as Disney did extensive color testing on cel set-ups to determine how paints, backgrounds, and exposures would affect the final film image, many of the animation art colors are purposely distorted in order to “read” correctly on film. (There is a selection of camera tests like this on the “Snow White” laser disc and Platinum DVD.)

Alice (of Wonderland fame) on cels, for instance, has decidedly green blond hair, in order to “read” on film as golden yellow.

(quote by Jeff Kurtii, emphasis mine)

I was going to pick up the Grinch BD, but I suspect I won't bother now, after seeing those captures. Ignoring for a moment all questions of "right" or "wrong", the colours on the BD are fugly, whichever way you look at it.
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post #16 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiggles View Post


I was going to pick up the Grinch BD, but I suspect I won't bother now, after seeing those captures. Ignoring for a moment all questions of "right" or "wrong", the colours on the BD are fugly, whichever way you look at it.

Of course, if you're going to just throw out all questions of right and wrong and simply declare you don't like something, that's a different matter, but I still don't see why someone can assume that the DVD is "right".
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post #17 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 06:12 AM
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I think that the BD is probably more accurate to the source but the timing is too bright so you have blinding neon greens and pinks.
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post #18 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 07:11 AM
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Well, I'm 51 years old so I can also lay claim to having watched this almost every Christmas for 40 years.

And that still doesn't qualify me to say what represents "correct" color. Even if I had a memory that good (I don't and neither does anybody else), I wouldn't put faith in the color calibration of the old 1970 RCA set when I first saw this in color (I would have seen it in B&W prior to that). Nor would I put any faith in the color on the other various color TV sets I owned through the 80's and 90's.

So I can't assume my memory is correct (I have no specifc recollection anyway). I can't assume any previous VHS or DVD is correct.

When I look at those screen caps, I compare the areas of detail in the little places. For example, in one screen cap (interior scene with dart board), there are small, colored decorations near the top of the Xmas tree. In the DVD, they seem to be little more than outlines with an indistinct muddy shade. In the Blu-ray, they are clearly seen with bright colors. I ask myself, "Did the artist draw that little decoration with the intent that it would be little more than a stain on the tree". In the exterior scene with the light burst in the center, if you look at the dark doorways, there is wood panel detail that is all but invisible on the DVD and there is also detail in evergreen boughs that is visible in the BD but essentially invisible in the DVD. Again I ask myself, "Was this drawn with the expectation that the detail would be seen or unseen"?

I do not know. Honestly, I do not know.

I'm taking a leap of faith.

I'm guessing that all of that detail was put there for a reason. I'm guessing that other peoples memories aren't any better than mine. I'm guessing that the TV sets they watched this on 10, 20 ,30 and 40 years ago were also no better than mine. I like the look of the BD and I'm guessing that it's about as close to right as anybody knows.

Yeah...I could be entirely wrong.

But I now have the advantage of being able to enjoy this beautifully detailed BD. By not pretending that I remember the right color from 1970 and by not pretending that previous video sources must be right, I can pop this into the player and have a great time watching it.
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post #19 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dex Robinson View Post

But I now have the advantage of being able to enjoy this beautifully detailed BD. By not pretending that I remember the right color from 1970 and by not pretending that previous video sources must be right, I can pop this into the player and have a great time watching it.

You would have a point if the last time this was broadcast was 1970, but this show has been broadcast every year since 1970, and I have watched it every year since it came out (I'm two months away from 47). The radioactive lime Jello green of the Grinch is way overblown. It's painfully and immediately obvious to me.
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post #20 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

this show has been broadcast every year since 1970

Exactly how does that prove that what you were watching showed accurate colors?
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post #21 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

I think you're off base with your color comments. Cartoons are not meant to be a reflection of "reality". Also, why do you assume that the DVD is an accurate color reference? Someone at HTF found this picture of a Grinch animation cel:



I'd say that's rather convincing evidence that it's the BLU RAY that's more faithful to the original look. Like I said, just because it doesn't match the look of older video formats does NOT automatically mean that they must be "right" and the BR must be "wrong".

The color of the Grinch in this photo is much more acceptable. The radioactivity of the Blu-ray Grinch is gone. I would be willing to bet that if the color timing of the Blu-ray allowed for the Grinch to be this color, the dog would still be brown (as he should be) and not the olive color he is in this new transfer.

When I referred to the "reality" of the transfer, I was referring to the "reality" of the actual colors, not real world reality. The reality of the transfer is that the dog was always a shade of brown, not olive, and the Grinch was never colored Day Glo green with a highlighter marker.
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post #22 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

The color of the Grinch in this photo is much more acceptable. The radioactivity of the Blu-ray Grinch is gone. I would be willing to bet that if the color timing of the Blu-ray allowed for the Grinch to be this color, the dog would still be brown (as he should be) and not the olive color he is in this new transfer.

When I referred to the "reality" of the transfer, I was referring to the "reality" of the actual colors, not real world reality. The reality of the transfer is that the dog was always a shade of brown, not olive, and the Grinch was never colored Day Glo green with a highlighter marker.

The cel doesn't show the Grinch having a mustard color (as on the DVD). He's green, even if not as bright a green as on the BR.
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post #23 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 01:10 PM
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Whether the coloring scheme of the Blu-Ray edition is right or wrong, the problem is that for years many of us have seen this classic and an image of what the Grinch looks like ingrained in our mind so it will definitely take some getting used to if someone goes with the Blu-Ray edition.

What next? Will Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer be released on Blu-Ray and we find that his nose is now orange instead of red?
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post #24 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 02:53 PM
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I have seen this ever since it was first broadcast, and I have a beta tape I made in 1985. The Grinch should not be yellowish-brown. The green is often a bit too garish, but in other captures the green looks the way it ought to. The Blu-ray is closer to the way the film should look.

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post #25 of 30 Old 10-08-2009, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

You would have a point if the last time this was broadcast was 1970, but this show has been broadcast every year since 1970, and I have watched it every year since it came out (I'm two months away from 47). The radioactive lime Jello green of the Grinch is way overblown. It's painfully and immediately obvious to me.

If I showed you I was wearing a pair of clean underwear in 1970, then showed you I was still wearing them once every year, do you think they'd still be shiny white and smelling like Tide by 2009? Prints age and degrade over time; I'm not saying the BD might not be a little too "punchy" but there's no way you'll convince me that the old TV print that's been running for decades is the model of accuracy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filmmaker View Post

If I showed you I was wearing a pair of clean underwear in 1970, then showed you I was still wearing them once every year, do you think they'd still be shiny white and smelling like Tide by 2009? Prints age and degrade over time; I'm not saying the BD might not be a little too "punchy" but there's no way you'll convince me that the old TV print that's been running for decades is the model of accuracy.

Well, for starters, they're not going to literally run a print every time they air it on TV. They'll have a created a master at some point and will presumably have made a couple more somewhere down the line with the advances in technology, but I think the underwear analogy is somewhat flawed.
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post #27 of 30 Old 10-09-2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filmmaker View Post

If I showed you I was wearing a pair of clean underwear in 1970, then showed you I was still wearing them once every year, do you think they'd still be shiny white and smelling like Tide by 2009? Prints age and degrade over time; I'm not saying the BD might not be a little too "punchy" but there's no way you'll convince me that the old TV print that's been running for decades is the model of accuracy.

I've seen The Wizard of Oz innumerable times on TV over the last few decades and the new Blu-ray is a vast improvement. I don't look at it now and say "these aren't the colors I remember!". I look at it and think "this is the best version of this film I've every seen!".

When I look at the Grinch screenies I think "in that shot where the Whos are circled hand in hand, it doesn't look like nighttime...it always did before...it's the middle of the night...why does it look like midday??"
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post #28 of 30 Old 10-09-2009, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

When I look at the Grinch screenies I think "in that shot where the Whos are circled hand in hand, it doesn't look like nighttime...it always did before...it's the middle of the night...why does it look like midday??"

Well, are you taking into consideration the fact that the whole point of that scene is that an extremely bright light is the focus of the shot? And as for Max, there's not a single shot where he looks the dark green of an olive.

We've got photographic evidence that the BD coloration is the closest--and I'd go so far as to say that the photo from HTF is poorly lit enough that it would look even closer--and there's now another HTF member saying it matches the cels he has. As others have pointed out, comparisons to the DVD don't make sense here.

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post #29 of 30 Old 10-10-2009, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

When I look at the Grinch screenies I think "in that shot where the Whos are circled hand in hand, it doesn't look like nighttime...it always did before...it's the middle of the night...why does it look like midday??"

This was how I remembered this scene also. But upon watching with my 6 year old son yesterday it turns out they are standing in circle at dawn, Christmas morning. I think it's supposed to read bright and intense as opposed to the dark some of us remember. I've been watching this for at least 35 years and enjoy the new and old. For the detail and usually refreshing color palate the BD will likely be played more often.

I need more zither!
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post #30 of 30 Old 10-10-2009, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sayitisntsony View Post

But upon watching with my 6 year old son yesterday it turns out they are standing in circle at dawn, Christmas morning.

When I saw that particular screen cap, I was very skeptical of the "middle of the night" claim. Reason: all of the small children. If that's the middle of the night, why are the parents and kids all together?
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