North By Northwest comparison *PIX* - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 80 Old 11-27-2009, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

In terms of charges of DNR (and I'm not saying it isn't DNR'd necessarily), remember NBNW was shot on a large negative format, Vista Vision, which is going to reduce visible grain. As well, softening filters were used liberally on the lenses throughout, especially whenever you start getting closer to the aging Cary Grant and to Eve Marie Saint. Which is going to mimic a DNR'd look to some degree.


Rich,
I know what you are talking about. I see the filtering that is applied in several places to give the faces more of a soft focus look but that isn't what I'm referring to. As far as the size of the negative , no doubt this should reduce the grain visibility, but it isn't that that I'm seeing but instead that last portion of fine detail that one would expect to see isn't there.

This is one of those times when I hate to take a position since it isn't like this film looks like The Longest Day or anything but it is what I see none the less.

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post #62 of 80 Old 11-27-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Only just at first glance it is polished looking. I think we all have now looked at scores of BD's, where is the fine detail particularly in skin textures etc.. ?

It's a Warner title.
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post #63 of 80 Old 11-28-2009, 05:49 PM
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It's not DNR. As Robert Harris and others have noted, it was shot with diffusion filters, specifically closeups of Grant to hide his age. You can easily see the difference in many scenes. For example, when talking with the Professor at the airport, in shots where the camera is focusing on the Professor - sharp as a tack. Switch to closeups of Grant - smooth as an android's bottom.

Also, note the scene in the Townsend's library. We see Grant in closeup - creamy. We then switch to a closeup of a mailing tube to see the address label - sharp as a John Lydon's hairdo.

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post #64 of 80 Old 11-28-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougotte View Post

It's not DNR. As Robert Harris and others have noted, it was shot with diffusion filters, specifically closeups of Grant to hide his age. You can easily see the difference in many scenes. For example, when talking with the Professor at the airport, in shots where the camera is focusing on the Professor - sharp as a tack. Switch to closeups of Grant - smooth as an android's bottom.

Also, note the scene in the Townsend's library. We see Grant in closeup - creamy. We then switch to a closeup of a mailing tube to see the address label - sharp as a John Lydon's hairdo.

Doug

Most "stars" actually have this stuff in their contracts, which lenses and filters can be used. I've read stories about them even having certain lighting and camera operators that they insisted on using. Of course it can also be the film maker's choice to give someone a certain look, but I'll wager it usually comes from the front side of the camera.
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post #65 of 80 Old 11-28-2009, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougotte View Post

It's not DNR. As Robert Harris and others have noted, it was shot with diffusion filters, specifically closeups of Grant to hide his age. You can easily see the difference in many scenes. For example, when talking with the Professor at the airport, in shots where the camera is focusing on the Professor - sharp as a tack. Switch to closeups of Grant - smooth as an android's bottom.

Also, note the scene in the Townsend's library. We see Grant in closeup - creamy. We then switch to a closeup of a mailing tube to see the address label - sharp as a John Lydon's hairdo.

Doug

There's a lot of diffusion used in this movie but it would only soften the image, not do anything to the grain. For example, the shot where the goons force Grant to drink bourbon is very obviously and heavy-handedly DNR'd when you see it in motion. That's one of the more obvious examples, but there's many shots where some some amount of temporal NR is used, and the artifacts are more subtle.
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post #66 of 80 Old 11-28-2009, 11:13 PM
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I just saw NbNW in 35mm as I said I would. Here is my report comparing this presentation to the Blu-ray.

The print was not the archive dye-transfer print that I had hoped for but instead was the print struck by Warners a few years ago when they did the DVD release. They made an effort to compare it to the dye-transfer prints at that time (I was told that Warners borrowed the one that I was hoping to see). People are understandably reluctant to run dye-transfer prints since they are irreplacable. Since this film was released by MGM not Paramount, there are apparently very few original dye-transfer prints left.

The presentation, at the Stanford Theater in Palo Alto, was virtually optimal, including period projection equipment with carbon arcs and a skilled projectionist instead of the automated platter systems that will ruin a print in the first weekend. Carbon arcs have a different and IMHO superior color balance, and certainly what was originally intended when the film was made.

My comparison of the Blu-ray to this presentation is that the color balance is spot-on the same. There are a few dark scenes (example: the scene where the Mercedes almost falls off of the cliff) that seem washed out on the Blu-ray but are better on the film. The original dye-transfer prints were surely sharper than this print, but I cannot confirm the color balance.


Other notes:

1. There are many blemishes on this print (which is actually in excellent condition) that are missing from the Blu-ray, thankfully.
2. The print had the original mono optical sound (for which the theatre is designed) while the Blu-ray has a remix that uses Bernard Herrrmann's original stereo recording of the score. Much improved on the Blu-ray IMHO. Herrmann was a big fan of stereo and lamented that it had gone out of use for a time.
3. The print was shown at an aspect ratio of about 1.7, which I prefer to the 1.78 of the Blu-ray. 1.78 is of course within the range of acceptable presentation for VistaVision but I find it a bit constrained.
4. The close-ups are deliberately fuzzy in this print, which has always been true of the movie.
5. From watching this print, there is no reason to believe that DNR or EE have been applied to degrade the image on the Blu-ray. The film is what it is.

Overall, if the print that I saw is an indication of what the film originally looked like, we can take the Blu-ray as being a winner. This is all that I can really say.
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post #67 of 80 Old 11-30-2009, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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post #68 of 80 Old 11-30-2009, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

There's a lot of diffusion used in this movie but it would only soften the image, not do anything to the grain. For example, the shot where the goons force Grant to drink bourbon is very obviously and heavy-handedly DNR'd when you see it in motion. That's one of the more obvious examples, but there's many shots where some some amount of temporal NR is used, and the artifacts are more subtle.

Harris also addresses the lack of grain as being inherent to the film. I'm no expert, but have read enough of his words, and have seen enough of his restoration work, to trust his knowledge.

Doug
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post #69 of 80 Old 11-30-2009, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougotte View Post

It's not DNR. As Robert Harris and others have noted, it was shot with diffusion filters, specifically closeups of Grant to hide his age. You can easily see the difference in many scenes. For example, when talking with the Professor at the airport, in shots where the camera is focusing on the Professor - sharp as a tack. Switch to closeups of Grant - smooth as an android's bottom.

Also, note the scene in the Townsend's library. We see Grant in closeup - creamy. We then switch to a closeup of a mailing tube to see the address label - sharp as a John Lydon's hairdo.

Doug

I disagree completely. I can recognize the difference between these two things. I have watched hundreds of films from the 20's through late 60's using this technique. I see it in this film to be sure but the DNR is different looking . Take it as a Pattonized lite if you will. Not particularly distracting but there.

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post #70 of 80 Old 12-05-2009, 03:02 AM - Thread Starter
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post #71 of 80 Old 12-05-2009, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I disagree completely. I can recognize the difference between these two things. I have watched hundreds of films from the 20's through late 60's using this technique. I see it in this film to be sure but the DNR is different looking . Take it as a Pattonized lite if you will. Not particularly distracting but there.

Art

OK, Art. I see that Torsten Kaiser has posted some pretty convincing posts over at blu-ray.com. He's very knowledgeable about digitizing video (where Harris specializes in film restoration), and his posts (as well as yours, above) are very well thought-out.

He's stating that there's heavy DNR on the opening title sequence (why?), and to a much lesser degree on the rest of the film.

Points taken. Thanks.
Doug
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post #72 of 80 Old 12-13-2009, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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post #73 of 80 Old 12-14-2009, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougotte View Post

OK, Art. I see that Torsten Kaiser has posted some pretty convincing posts over at blu-ray.com. He's very knowledgeable about digitizing video (where Harris specializes in film restoration), and his posts (as well as yours, above) are very well thought-out.

He's stating that there's heavy DNR on the opening title sequence (why?), and to a much lesser degree on the rest of the film.

Points taken. Thanks.
Doug

I wouldn't like to comment on this particular disc, having not seen it yet, but I can comment on title sequences in general. They're usually more grainy than the rest of the film due to over-layed titles, amongst other things. It's possible they used more DNR on this sequence to even out grain levels with the rest of the film.

Steve W
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post #74 of 80 Old 12-14-2009, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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post #75 of 80 Old 12-24-2009, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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post #76 of 80 Old 12-24-2009, 06:24 PM
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I finally got this Blu Ray. It was one of my favorite DVDs. I spun it and looked at various scenes. I enjoy the extra detail, but I'm generally a bit disappointed with the darker look. Aside from being less vibrant than the DVD, it has black crush all over the place and loses lots of detail in shadow areas, as seen in xylon's screen caps.

Ah well...
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post #77 of 80 Old 12-24-2009, 06:59 PM
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This is DNRed folks lets face it !



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post #78 of 80 Old 12-25-2009, 06:01 AM
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But there's grain... and the source elements... original photography... diffusion... and Robert Harris said...

Yeah, it's soft.
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post #79 of 80 Old 12-25-2009, 09:35 AM
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Art

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post #80 of 80 Old 04-25-2010, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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