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post #91 of 118 Old 07-12-2010, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

For Blu ray would it not be better to go ahead push the music format to 7.1 and cover all user systems?

Maybe all sessions from now on will be captured at 24/96, 7.1 from the start? Perhaps the good Dr. doesn't want to synthetically derive a 7.1 mix from a 5.1 master. I'd agree with that philosophy.

With playing around with my speakers I do find that the recommended DTS/Dolby standard 7.1 layout works about the best (as a good starting point if you have the ability to play around with your seating and speaker locations).



Basically, the side surrounds are to the immediate sides of the viewer/listener's ears and the back surrounds are at 150 degrees (if the center speaker is placed at 0 degrees of a circle). The rest is up to room acoustics and screen layout, etc.

If you have more than one row of seating (as do many on this board) and are blessed with deep risers and/or long rooms to accommodate recliners then each row of seats should get its own set of side surround speakers like at a commercial venue.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #92 of 118 Old 07-13-2010, 01:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Maybe all sessions from now on will be captured at 24/96, 7.1 from the start? Perhaps the good Dr. doesn't want to synthetically derive a 7.1 mix from a 5.1 master. I'd agree with that philosophy.

With playing around with my speakers I do find that the recommended DTS/Dolby standard 7.1 layout works about the best (as a good starting point if you have the ability to play around with your seating and speaker locations).



Basically, the side surrounds are to the immediate sides of the viewer/listener's ears and the back surrounds are at 150 degrees (if the center speaker is placed at 0 degrees of a circle). The rest is up to room acoustics and screen layout, etc.

If you have more than one row of seating (as do many on this board) and are blessed with deep risers and/or long rooms to accommodate recliners then each row of seats should get its own set of side surround speakers like at a commercial venue.

there is a collection of 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio titles remixed from original
Masters
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post #93 of 118 Old 07-13-2010, 05:20 AM
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or go here directly to Amazon instead of that affiliate link from another website.
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post #94 of 118 Old 07-13-2010, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Maybe all sessions from now on will be captured at 24/96, 7.1 from the start? Perhaps the good Dr. doesn't want to synthetically derive a 7.1 mix from a 5.1 master.

I don't think the sessions are captured in 5.1 or 7.1, just raw microphone feeds. Those tracks are then mixed to 2.0 or 5.1 or 7.1 (or all of the above). Or, as in this particular case, multiple 5.1 and 7.1 mixes (stage perspective, audience perspective). I don't think there's any need to first do a 5.1 mix and then "synthetically derive" (whatever that means) a 7.1 mix from that master.

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post #95 of 118 Old 07-13-2010, 06:48 AM
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Is anyone doing any jazz concerts or performances in Blu-Ray? Seems to be lots of classical and rock but where's the jazz?

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post #96 of 118 Old 07-13-2010, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patmiller View Post

there is a collection of 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio titles remixed from original
Masters

The only thing is this: movie soundtracks are synthetic sound fields from multiple audio library stems... not real life.

AIX and other audiophile labels want to mic/capture and recreate the venue ambiance as closely as possible for multi-channel releases.

If the live recording session wasn't set up for 7.1 in the first place then you won't get satisfactory results by trying to "fake" ambiance from the rear of the hall from a 5.0 or 5.1 mix.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #97 of 118 Old 07-14-2010, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patmiller View Post

there is a collection of 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio titles remixed from original
Masters

Did not know those even existed, going to order a couple to test out.
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post #98 of 118 Old 07-14-2010, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

The only thing is this: movie soundtracks are synthetic sound fields from multiple audio library stems... not real life.

AIX and other audiophile labels want to mic/capture and recreate the venue ambiance as closely as possible for multi-channel releases.

If the live recording session wasn't set up for 7.1 in the first place then you won't get satisfactory results by trying to "fake" ambiance from the rear of the hall from a 5.0 or 5.1 mix.

Well I think for a general listening audience a 5.1 matrixed to 7.1 would be ok.

However from a multichannel audiophile standpoint, having 7.1 discrete channels would be far superior as you would be recreating the entire recording room, studio, club, hall, stadium etc… in your home hearing the audio as it was meant to be heard if you were there.
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post #99 of 118 Old 07-14-2010, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

However from a multichannel audiophile standpoint, having 7.1 discrete channels would be far superior as you would be recreating the entire recording room, studio, club, hall, stadium etc in your home hearing the audio as it was meant to be heard if you were there.

Entire is questionable but more of the venue, yes.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #100 of 118 Old 07-14-2010, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Entire is questionable but more of the venue, yes.

Yes “entire” maybe a poor choice of words there, but you would get the sound from all sides, front, left, right and rear giving you a better audio reproduction of the actual venue.
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post #101 of 118 Old 07-14-2010, 04:30 PM
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Not that it's a 7.1 mix, but an interesting live, in-the-round experience on 5.1 SA-CD is from Telarc. It's the Berlioz Requiem conducted by Robert Spano.

Berlioz and other future-thinking composers wanted the audience to be surrounded by their music (especially in a cathedral setting) from all around and even above from the lofts in order to deliver a more ethereal, other-worldly experience.

Telarc's engineers placed the choir and instruments around the venue as instructed by Berlioz's manuscript for the Requiem. They then captured that in 5.1 surround.

Pretty awesome! Just think what it might have been in 7.1!

Might AIX do their own 7.1 version of the Berlioz Requiem and other orchestral/choral/ensemble pieces that were composed and "designed" specifically for that kind of 360 degree effect?

It might be something to broaden the scope of their offerings besides their regular on-stage or in-audience with natural hall ambiance mixes? Pieces like the Requiem were actually tailor-made for a 7.1 audio mix where you're in the audience, but the musicians and choir members are strategically placed all around the concert hall or cathedral (many classical composers orchestrated their works to be performed in specific environs for the right acoustics) envisioned by the composer... intermixed with the hall venue's natural ambiance from the audience perspective to take you to another level.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #102 of 118 Old 07-16-2010, 07:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

Well I think for a general listening audience a 5.1 matrixed to 7.1 would be ok.

However from a multichannel audiophile standpoint, having 7.1 discrete channels would be far superior as you would be recreating the entire recording room, studio, club, hall, stadium etc… in your home hearing the audio as it was meant to be heard if you were there.

Here is thehttp://forum.blu-ray.com/blu-ray-mus...xperience.html Alexander J talking about his 7.1 mix of Beethoven/Mendelssohn Violin concertos performed by Victoria Mullova.
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post #103 of 118 Old 07-16-2010, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patmiller View Post

Here is thehttp://forum.blu-ray.com/blu-ray-mus...xperience.html Alexander J talking about his 7.1 mix of Beethoven/Mendelssohn Violin concertos performed by Victoria Mullova.

Nice find!

Quote:


Alexander J "Using the advantages of 7.1 media I was able to produce better definition of Mullova violin as well as to complement this outstanding material recorded previously for Decca by greater perception of natural hall acoustics in additional surround channels."

This is what I mean and if he could do that by mixing imagine what could be done recording with 8 mic's capturing the actual hall acoustics for 7.1 discrete surround. I would think that would be a audiophile purests dream.
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post #104 of 118 Old 07-19-2010, 05:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

Nice find!



This is what I mean and if he could do that by mixing imagine what could be done recording with 8 mic's capturing the actual hall acoustics for 7.1 discrete surround. I would think that would be a audiophile purests dream.


That would be Jero's 3-D Reality Mahler "Resurrection" mix:
it sounds like Tacet "Real Surround" recordings only in 7.1 that makes it more interesting.
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post #105 of 118 Old 07-19-2010, 06:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patmiller View Post

That would be Jero's 3-D Reality Mahler "Resurrection" mix:
it sounds like Tacet "Real Surround" recordings only in 7.1 that make it more interesting.

just a note,
you do need a discrete 7.1 reproduction to experience it, it is not as effective in 5.1
like "Acoustic Reality" titles of this series.
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post #106 of 118 Old 07-24-2010, 07:25 PM
 
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there is also a very optimistic review about 7.1 music in general and one of Alexander J titles in particular at "Audiophile Audition"
http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=7523
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post #107 of 118 Old 08-08-2010, 01:58 PM
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I said I would and finally did test out a couple of 7.1 audio Blu Rays, The Way To Paradise and Beethoven - Mendelssohn Violin Concertos.

I have SACD's, and DVD-A's but after listening to those Blu Rays I am of the opinion the 7.1 DTS HD MA is in a whole other league;

The The Way To Paradise Blu Ray is certainly unusual, pretty much like nothing I have ever heard, the author makes heavy use of the surrounds for a unique 3D audio experience.

The Beethoven - Mendelssohn is what really blew me away it is what I would call better than being live, because it is like live only you're the only one in the audience, just incredible, a real masterpiece.

I believe now more than ever that 7.1 it the way to go, hint, hint, Dr. AIX
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post #108 of 118 Old 08-08-2010, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I have nothing against 7.1 mixes and in fact, have done whole bunch of them. In the production of a Blu-ray disc with multiple audio streams and mixes, we simply run out of bandwidth and disc space. There's never enough room to get everything that we want.

I'm completely content with 5.1 at the present time.
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post #109 of 118 Old 08-11-2010, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. AIX View Post

I have nothing against 7.1 mixes and in fact, have done whole bunch of them. In the production of a Blu-ray disc with multiple audio streams and mixes, we simply run out of bandwidth and disc space. There's never enough room to get everything that we want.

I'm completely content with 5.1 at the present time.

Dr. Aix

That do you think about Alexander J new mixing approach of recording different sections of an orchestra and then bringing them to the mixing session on separate tracks for the final mix.

Do you think that puts engineer/producer on one stage with conductor of an orchestra?
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post #110 of 118 Old 08-12-2010, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't say that I've hear anything done with this approach. My initial thoughts would be that the performance would suffer tremendously if the musicians weren't all present at the same time.
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post #111 of 118 Old 08-12-2010, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patmiller View Post

Dr. Aix

That do you think about Alexander J new mixing approach of recording different sections of an orchestra and then bringing them to the mixing session on separate tracks for the final mix.

Do you think that puts engineer/producer on one stage with conductor of an orchestra?

It simply would not be music.

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post #112 of 118 Old 08-12-2010, 11:42 AM
 
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It simply would not be music.

fafner

All popular music recordings produced this way,
the question is would we or not like the result

Check this out:
Amadeus - Salieri helps Mozart write his Requiem
All parts was not written at the same time
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post #113 of 118 Old 08-13-2010, 02:09 AM
 
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This is a better link of Mozart composing Confutatis BY ORCHESTRA SECTIONS to give you a better exposure that Alexander is about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlPQD...eature=related
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post #114 of 118 Old 08-13-2010, 10:44 AM
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Hi All, I thought I would add my 2 cents to the conversation...from a consumer point of view.

I prefer downloading music so it is available to me from my computer. I've downloaded several titles from Dr. AIX's iTrax website and I have been very impressed with the quality of the music (WMA Lossless, 5.1). While most folks are apparently content with MP3 downloads for their iPods, I do hope there will always be a strong enough market to support high quality multi channel downloads.

Personally, I do not need the video most of the time. But, sometimes I do enjoy the video portion. For instance, I own a few opera titles in BD and prefer a choice, audio plus video, or audio only.

I can understand Dr. AIX's commitment to the finest quality sound by using an acoustically managed room. But, this is impractical for all music. I would hope that there are some recording engineers out there who are as dedicated as Dr. AIX and will produce top quality multi channel music from live and studio performances (I am thinking about opera, ballet, symphonies, etc.).

As an aside, I love movie soundtracks. I have a precious couple of them in SACD (Titanic and A Beautiful Mind). New movies use multichannel sound and this is brought over to the BD release. Why are soundtracks only released in 2 channel stereo on CD? Since it is already engineered for multi channel surround, it would seem easy to make soundtracks available on either BD or DVD Audio (or, even download). I would hope Dr. AIX would reconsider his position and make multi channel soundtracks available from iTrax if the engineering was up to snuff.

My setup is 5.1. The jump from 2 channel to 5.1 was so impressive to me I went ahead and invested in my 5.1 setup. But, I cannot justify the cost of upgrading to 7.1.

The computer formats I am using are: WMA Lossless or PCM WAV. Alternatively, I use SACD, DVD Audio and, of course, BD discs. All of these formats get the job done for me. Maybe I am getting lazy, but I just do not want to get up and change discs anymore. My focus is organizing music on my computer and setting up a playlist so I can listen to individual music tracks without having to change discs.

Thanks, Marcus

Our Personal Website with movie and music catalog pages.

Marcus & LaMona Home Theater
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post #115 of 118 Old 08-21-2010, 07:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. AIX View Post

I can't say that I've hear anything done with this approach. My initial thoughts would be that the performance would suffer tremendously if the musicians weren't all present at the same time.

this is actually a reasonable doubt,
but let me ask you this:
then you record your artists, bands
did you record all performers at the same time?
it is a industry practice for popular music recordings
to record drums, then bass then vocals and other instruments
with reference recording over headphones.
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post #116 of 118 Old 08-22-2010, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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The standard way of creating commercial recordings is to record the rhythm tracks (drums, bass, guitar, keyboards with a scratch vocal), then overdub all of the additional parts (which might actually involve replacing the original drums or other basic elements!) including the lead vocals, brass, strings, percussion etc., and then mixing the whole thing together. There are tremendous advantages to this in terms of flexibility, isolation and mixing. It is a sound that you heard everyday on the radio and on discs. Even jazz is done this way.

These recordings are done in acoustically dead or neutral rooms...usually the drums are in their own room to keep leakage to a minimum. The mics (usually a single mono mic) are placed very close to the sound sources, lots of processing is used to "color" or control the sound (dynamic compression, EQ) and then artificial reverb is used to "liven" the sound back to acoustic reality.

I love this type of record making. Imagine the Beatles, Peter Gabriel or Keith Urban without this recording methodology. However, there are also other ways to make records.

Classical music, soundtracks and a lot of jazz and world music is done with the entire group in an acoustically rich auditorium. The performers play, the sound is captured on a minimal number of mics (usually 2-6 in stereo pairs...ORTF, XY or Blumlein) and then the best takes are edited into the final result. I've done lots of recording this way AND made hundreds of edits for a single 60 minute classical disc!

AIX Records combines the best features of each of these two types. We do record everyone in the same acoustically rich room at the same time...including the vocals! The drums, background singers, percussion, strings, brass and everything else are all playing at the same time. No overdubs and no replacements. We do sometimes make an edit here and there to get a cleaner performance or better head/tail, but essentially it is a single take very much like the jazz or classical world would do.

However, we capture the individual instruments with stereo pairs of mics placed close to the performers to get the intimacy that Windham discovered in their guitar recordings AND to maximize the separation between instruments...to the extent that we can. We also place microphones in the back of the rich hall to capture the natural reverberation of the hall.

We do not dynamically compress, use equalization or artificial reverberation to "control" the natural sound of the instruments in the room. The bass drum is not going to sound like a cannon because that is not the sound that they produce (in spite of the sound you hear on commercial releases).

I then take the 24-36 stereo pairs of tracks and mix them into 7.1, 5.1 or 2.0 speakers...in "stage" or "audience" perspective. The selection is left to the listener.

Since everyone is there at the same time, we can shoot video of the whole thing. We've done this since the first session over 10 years ago...and now do it in HD and even 3D HD.

Everyone makes records according to their own production requirements. I've made lots of recordings for others that use the tried and true methods...but when it came to making my own recordings for my own label, I opted for the most open, high-definition, unprocessed, natural sound I could create. Basically, I get out of the way.

I believe it works and leave it to our customers to decide. Thankfully, our reputation has grown by word of mouth and we sell enough to make the next ones. Others do it other ways...but I'm sticking with a technique that we refined over my 30 years plus of being hooked on music AND recording technology.
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post #117 of 118 Old 08-22-2010, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. AIX View Post

The standard way of creating commercial recordings is to record the rhythm tracks (drums, bass, guitar, keyboards with a scratch vocal), then overdub all of the additional parts (which might actually involve replacing the original drums or other basic elements!) including the lead vocals, brass, strings, percussion etc., and then mixing the whole thing together. There are tremendous advantages to this in terms of flexibility, isolation and mixing. It is a sound that you heard everyday on the radio and on discs. Even jazz is done this way.

These recordings are done in acoustically dead or neutral rooms...usually the drums are in their own room to keep leakage to a minimum. The mics (usually a single mono mic) are placed very close to the sound sources, lots of processing is used to "color" or control the sound (dynamic compression, EQ) and then artificial reverb is used to "liven" the sound back to acoustic reality.

I love this type of record making. Imagine the Beatles, Peter Gabriel or Keith Urban without this recording methodology. However, there are also other ways to make records.

Classical music, soundtracks and a lot of jazz and world music is done with the entire group in an acoustically rich auditorium. The performers play, the sound is captured on a minimal number of mics (usually 2-6 in stereo pairs...ORTF, XY or Blumlein) and then the best takes are edited into the final result. I've done lots of recording this way AND made hundreds of edits for a single 60 minute classical disc!

AIX Records combines the best features of each of these two types. We do record everyone in the same acoustically rich room at the same time...including the vocals! The drums, background singers, percussion, strings, brass and everything else are all playing at the same time. No overdubs and no replacements. We do sometimes make an edit here and there to get a cleaner performance or better head/tail, but essentially it is a single take very much like the jazz or classical world would do.

However, we capture the individual instruments with stereo pairs of mics placed close to the performers to get the intimacy that Windham discovered in their guitar recordings AND to maximize the separation between instruments...to the extent that we can. We also place microphones in the back of the rich hall to capture the natural reverberation of the hall.

We do not dynamically compress, use equalization or artificial reverberation to "control" the natural sound of the instruments in the room. The bass drum is not going to sound like a cannon because that is not the sound that they produce (in spite of the sound you hear on commercial releases).

I then take the 24-36 stereo pairs of tracks and mix them into 7.1, 5.1 or 2.0 speakers...in "stage" or "audience" perspective. The selection is left to the listener.

Since everyone is there at the same time, we can shoot video of the whole thing. We've done this since the first session over 10 years ago...and now do it in HD and even 3D HD.

Everyone makes records according to their own production requirements. I've made lots of recordings for others that use the tried and true methods...but when it came to making my own recordings for my own label, I opted for the most open, high-definition, unprocessed, natural sound I could create. Basically, I get out of the way.

I believe it works and leave it to our customers to decide. Thankfully, our reputation has grown by word of mouth and we sell enough to make the next ones. Others do it other ways...but I'm sticking with a technique that we refined over my 30 years plus of being hooked on music AND recording technology.

this is all correct, but pity
dont take this in offensive way
this presentation of production methods
makes an engineer, producer not more then a technician
that maybe one of the reasons of suffering recording industry
in opposite to Alexander J new approach
showcasing sound engineer as a virtual conductor of an orchestra ( of course you understand why)
who is using advantages of modern music production to create new Artwork of Music and Sound.
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post #118 of 118 Old 08-22-2010, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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The numerous decisions that a producer and engineer make during particular production over over a lifetime of gaining experience is where a successful collaboration takes place. There is certainly a technical aspect to being a producer and engineer but there is a tremendous amount of creative input that comes in during the creation of a recording project.

The process that AIX Records uses is unique...there is no one else that I'm aware of that records using the method I described. My friend Morten Lynberg at 2L uses rich acoustic environments to record but uses a single array of surround microphones...and he produces wonderful recordings! But he cannot remix them as flexibly into stereo or other surround varieties using his method. Todd Garfinkle of MA Records (who I went to CSU Northdige with 30 years ago) uses a single pair of custom mics at some distance from the artists...his approach produces a completely different final result.

I have heard Alexander J's recordings and corresponded with him about various aspects of his production process. I applaud him for his initiatives in the surround Blu-ray music market, but I don't respond the same way to his recordings as I do to others...especially the unique way that AIX Records delivers music. Take a listen and you be the judge. After all...it is about what you personally like.
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