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post #3121 of 3199 Old 03-30-2012, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

Huh? Aliens established that xenomorph eggs come from a queen and have a hive society. This directly contradicts the intended biological origins established (and then wisely discarded) in Alien that captured victims are cocooned and slowly transformed into xenomorph eggs. Thank goodness we have the deleted scenes from Alien to show us what silliness was avoided by judicious cutting.

How does that 'intended biological origins' jive with the underground vast caverns with the tons of eggs?

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These loving reviews of Alien 3 are an obvious attempt to elicit a negative response. Sorry I'm not biting.

Would you be tempted by a loving review of AR or AVP instead?
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post #3122 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 01:56 AM
 
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I've made my peace with A3 and AR. They are simply not part of the Alien series for me. They're interesting as an elaborate series of fantasy sequences (AR), or as a story inspired by the original films in the series (A3). With this set of expectations, the last two films can be considered interesting and watchable, although never to be considered as true sequels. I'm hoping Prometheus will take it's rightful place as a legendary story worthy of the series.
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post #3123 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

Huh? Aliens established that xenomorph eggs come from a queen and have a hive society. This directly contradicts the intended biological origins established (and then wisely discarded) in Alien that captured victims are cocooned and slowly transformed into xenomorph eggs. Thank goodness we have the deleted scenes from Alien to show us what silliness was avoided by judicious cutting.

Wisely discarded? Purely subjective. The original scripting, artwork, and input from Geiger for Alien did not involve a queen. Anyway, I was referring to the the origin of the species, not the reproduction cycle.

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I'll also add a reminder that the xenomorph costume from Alien had a detachable skull/face plate the revealed a human skull in the xenomorph head (part of Geiger's design concept). The faceplate covering the skull was left in place for the shoot but IIRC it was slightly transparent so you can get the suggestion of a human skull behind the faceplace in a few shots.

FWIW, I always hated the genetic host modification idea introduced in Alien 3. It's inclusion always felt to me like an unnecessary tacked on artistic need to shake things up visually, as if Geiger's original biomechanoid designs weren't good enough anymore.

Also part of the original intent of species. Scott stated that the xenomorph would have been cat-like if the facehugger had attached to the cat.
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post #3124 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Really? I loved this aspect of the xenomorphs. It added another dimension to their background, an allusion to their true purpose, or at the very least a window into their evolution.

Combine this with the harvesting of hosts that the Predators use in AVP, and we start to see how the xenomorphs are bred to adapt to the environment of their prey. I'm hoping that Ridley Scott's film touches on this, and explains how the xenomorph's came to be. The process of gestating inside of a host and taking on the physical attributes of that host makes a lot of sense when you consider that the eggs need to be fertilized by something, otherwise the eggs would hatch straight into baby xenomorphs/chestbursters and skip the facehugger step.

Otherwise, what's the point of the facehuggers in the first place? Just to be scary?

I think Geiger's biomechanoid designs intentionally morphs human physiology into something "alien". But in the context of the film story it's more plausible that the xenomorph is a totally foreign species, thus the loss of the human skull element in the design, for example. And yes the primary purpose of the facehuggers in the movie is to be creepy and scary. Biologically, their story purpose is to show the xenomorph has a thoroughly alien life cycle with separate, multiple stages. I take issue with your statement that the eggs (what we call eggs) need to be fertilized. Who says they requiring fertilization? Who says they're eggs (in the traditional earth biology sense) at all? It takes a lot of objectivity to avoid imposing earth biology rules on the xenomorph biology. Personally, as a rule I ignore the additions of the AVP movies.

My gripe with the genetics aspect its a feels like a retcon slapped on in Alien 3. I can understand if some feel the queen is a retcon slapped on in Aliens but it reinforces the mother-child theme running throughout the series. The additions of Alien 3 serve no higher purpose than changing up the visual design for its own sake. If incorporating host genetics had been inherent certainly Bishop certainly would've found and mentioned something in Aliens.

Edit: I have seen production photos of the xenomorph performer in costume with the faceplate off. I was sure I'd saved them somewhere but after a search I apparently don't have copies. I skimmed through Alien and could not find any scene where the skull is seen (suggested) through the faceplate.
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post #3125 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by wuther View Post

How does that 'intended biological origins' jive with the underground vast caverns with the tons of eggs?

We're not sure from the movie. If you take the Alien DC by itself the eggs must be cocooned/transformed hosts. If you take Alien and Aliens as cannon (which kinda forces you to jettison the Brett/Dallas cocoon scene) the eggs are obviously harvested from a queen. I think most people take the first two movies as a pair.

That said, the cocoon scene was cut primarily for pacing, IIRC. And perhaps what was intended to be a third act shocker scene ended up being more of a confusing distraction.
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post #3126 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by nick_danger View Post

Wisely discarded? Purely subjective. The original scripting, artwork, and input from Geiger for Alien did not involve a queen. Anyway, I was referring to the the origin of the species, not the reproduction cycle.

Also part of the original intent of species. Scott stated that the xenomorph would have been cat-like if the facehugger had attached to the cat.

Fair enough. Didn't mean to suggest "wisely discarded" was anything but my personal opinion. But, wisely discarded for reasons of pacing is pretty hard to argue against (granted, that wasn't my original point).

As for the origin of the species, you can't really divest that from the reproduction cycle, can you? But I get the context of your original statement. I'm also excited to see how Prometheus will add to the mythology of the Alien universe.

As for Scott's comments (which I don't casually disregard or diminish) he can say whatever he likes, but what's shown in the actual movie is what matters (which is why I harp on the discarded cocoon scene as being irrelevant). Choices made during production (screenwriting, photography, editing) always trump interview statements or commentary tracks (usually made upon reflection, after the film is finished). He also thinks Deckard is a replicant. He's entitled to his personal interpretations of his movies, just like the rest of us.
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post #3127 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

I think Geiger's biomechanoid designs intentionally morphs human physiology into something "alien". But in the context of the film story it's more plausible that the xenomorph is a totally foreign species, thus the loss of the human skull element in the design, for example. And yes the primary purpose of the facehuggers in the movie is to be creepy and scary. Biologically, their story purpose is to show the xenomorph has a thoroughly alien life cycle with separate, multiple stages. I take issue with your statement that the eggs (what we call eggs) need to be fertilized. Who says they requiring fertilization? Who says they're eggs (in the traditional earth biology sense) at all? It takes a lot of objectivity to avoid imposing earth biology rules on the xenomorph biology. Personally, as a rule I ignore the additions of the AVP movies.

My gripe with the genetics aspect its a feels like a retcon slapped on in Alien 3. I can understand if some feel the queen is a retcon slapped on in Aliens but it reinforces the mother-child theme running throughout the series. The additions of Alien 3 serve no higher purpose than changing up the visual design for its own sake. If incorporating host genetics had been inherent certainly Bishop certainly would've found and mentioned something in Aliens.

Edit: I have seen production photos of the xenomorph performer in costume with the faceplate off. I was sure I'd saved them somewhere but after a search I apparently don't have copies. I skimmed through Alien and could not find any scene where the skull is seen (suggested) through the faceplate.

Great post. Agree with much of the points here, especially regarding the "alien-ness" of the xenomorphs. If we believe the Alien DC, they're not fertilized whatsoever in the traditional sense, but rather require hosts to complete each part of the lifecycle.

However, combining that thought and the idea hat the xenos could incorporate host attributes is still intriguing. The ability to take genetic material from two hosts (one for the egg transformation and then one for the chestburster host) allows the xeno to adapt very quickly to their environment and their prey. Having double the mixing per generation allows quicker adaptability especially if any one host might not be the perfect specimen. Greater genetic diversity generally tends to provide greater chances to adapt. generation by generation. Thus, the xenos can adapt literally twice as face as another organism that only incorporates the host attributes once per generation.

...I think I just went super-nerd there... LOL.
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post #3128 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

We're not sure from the movie. If you take the Alien DC by itself the eggs must be cocooned/transformed hosts. If you take Alien and Aliens as cannon (which kinda forces you to jettison the Brett/Dallas cocoon scene) the eggs are obviously harvested from a queen. I think most people take the first two movies as a pair.

Cocooned/transformed hosts from the alien ship? I expected you to reply that but going by the interior design of that spaceship it was built for very large creatures and even if it was not I doubt there would of been a large enough crew for all those eggs unless the ship was packed. Hard to know for sure since the rest of the ship was not explored and instead they went down a damn hole, stupid humans.

The caverns are the real monkey wrench in the works. It suggests the species maybe from that planetoid afterall, perhaps after some surface disaster.

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I've made my peace with A3 and AR. They are simply not part of the Alien series for me. They're interesting as an elaborate series of fantasy sequences (AR), or as a story inspired by the original films in the series (A3). With this set of expectations, the last two films can be considered interesting and watchable, although never to be considered as true sequels. I'm hoping Prometheus will take it's rightful place as a legendary story worthy of the series.

I consider AVP the fantasy sequences. A3 & AR, although more then disappointing, I do not have a problem with them being in Alien tapestry.

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Originally Posted by nick_danger View Post

Also part of the original intent of species. Scott stated that the xenomorph would have been cat-like if the facehugger had attached to the cat.

I had always assumed that when I first saw Alien in the 80's, the aliens were stated to be highly adaptable.
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post #3129 of 3199 Old 03-31-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi_Def_Boss View Post

I've made my peace with A3 and AR. They are simply not part of the Alien series for me. They're interesting as an elaborate series of fantasy sequences (AR), or as a story inspired by the original films in the series (A3). With this set of expectations, the last two films can be considered interesting and watchable, although never to be considered as true sequels. I'm hoping Prometheus will take it's rightful place as a legendary story worthy of the series.

+1

Alien 3 as a stand alone film is fine, I've often wondered what I'd have thought of it had I seen it first. But, there is simply to much disconnect between what happened in Aliens and the begining of A3 for me to accept.
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post #3130 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Cocooned/transformed hosts from the alien ship? I expected you to reply that but going by the interior design of that spaceship it was built for very large creatures and even if it was not I doubt there would of been a large enough crew for all those eggs unless the ship was packed. Hard to know for sure since the rest of the ship was not explored and instead they went down a damn hole, stupid humans.

The caverns are the real monkey wrench in the works. It suggests the species maybe from that planetoid afterall, perhaps after some surface disaster.

Ahh, I misread the point of your question. We're forced to speculate a lot regarding Alien. I never assumed the eggs in the derelict were transformed derelict crew members. For all we know the ship was built (grown?) for another use and repurposed as an egg transport vessel (which could explain the cavernous waste of space). I always figured the Space Jockey was a interstellar truck driver ferrying eggs from a harvesting location to a "deployment" or storage location. Depnding on the POV, "harvesting location" can imply cocooned hosts or a xenomorph queen. Some have suggested the cocooning method and egg-laying queen method of propagation can exist side-by-side in the xenomorph biology, with the cocooning being a sort of "royal jelly" way of generating a queen when there is none. That's a bit too much speculation in an attempt to repair contradictions via retcon for my tastes.

I expect Prometheus will answer some of these questions, at least regarding the Space Jockey aspects of Alien.
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post #3131 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

I always figured the Space Jockey was a interstellar truck driver ferrying eggs from a harvesting location to a "deployment" or storage location.

Space Jockey has a sizable hole in his chest. It's logical to assume he probably didn't want that hole in his chest.

And any alien race that would be ferrying the xenomorphs would probably be smart enough to not be in the same room as the eggs.

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post #3133 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

Ahh, I misread the point of your question. We're forced to speculate a lot regarding Alien. I never assumed the eggs in the derelict were transformed derelict crew members. For all we know the ship was built (grown?) for another use and repurposed as an egg transport vessel (which could explain the cavernous waste of space). I always figured the Space Jockey was a interstellar truck driver ferrying eggs from a harvesting location to a "deployment" or storage location. Depnding on the POV, "harvesting location" can imply cocooned hosts or a xenomorph queen. Some have suggested the cocooning method and egg-laying queen method of propagation can exist side-by-side in the xenomorph biology, with the cocooning being a sort of "royal jelly" way of generating a queen when there is none. That's a bit too much speculation in an attempt to repair contradictions via retcon for my tastes.

I expect Prometheus will answer some of these questions, at least regarding the Space Jockey aspects of Alien.

We need speculate on the intended biological origins no more. Coming from Scott's mouth in the Starlog issue #26 (I actually have this) about a budget compromise merging two scenes: "It's the setting the original script refers to as a pyramid. Actually, it was to be more like a silo. It was a hugh architectural structure like a beehive, a honeycomb. When the party landed to investigate the alien transmission first they found the derelict with the dead alien crew, but not the alien."

This is backed up by the first draft I just read on the 2nd DVD disc (my individual BD has next to no extras) and I found a online version here:

http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/alien_early.html

The DVD has a Dan O'Bannon prologue of the draft, which I cannot find online, that explains where he got the ideas from the most important being a story he read of a pyramid on a planetoid with several derelict ships around it that lured spacecraft and 'stole' the crew's minds once they go inside.

In short the first draft spells out that the planetoid is a trap that the derelict ship stumbles upon and probably was just one of the last ships of several before the Snark(ugh!)/Nostromo arrives. The draft also spells out in the scene that was cut that the two cocooned crewman in the were to made into eggs/urns with one already finished. The draft starts out poorly but picks up by the time they set foot on the planetoid.

I would not be surprised if the pyramid, heiroglyphics and skeleton set in a rock (final draft) appears in Prometheus.
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post #3134 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by wuther View Post

I would not be surprised if the pyramid, heiroglyphics and skeleton set in a rock (final draft) appears in Prometheus.

I assume you haven't seen any previews for Prometheus, then? Like I stated several posts back, Prometheus will end up being the story he didn't have money to tell the first time... whether that's good or bad remains to be seen. I'm hoping for the best.
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post #3135 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Space Jockey has a sizable hole in his chest. It's logical to assume he probably didn't want that hole in his chest.

And any alien race that would be ferrying the xenomorphs would probably be smart enough to not be in the same room as the eggs.

Let's face it, Alien shows us some weird **** that doesn't really have to make logical sense. It just needs to be weird and foreign, which Geiger was perfect for. The burden comes later when the series needs to flesh out explanations for the weirdness.

Maybe the stasis field failed and a facehugger got out. Maybe the SJ race had reason to believe they were immune. Maybe our beloved SJ got ****ed over for a percentage by a weasely, corporate SJ. Maybe Tanhauser Gate was backed up so they loaded extra units on the front seat of the SJ's big rig. Maybe a queen burst out of the SJ and laid her eggs in the SJ chamber.

I don't know why the eggs are in the SJ's chamber. My point is it's not my burden to explain Alien's creepy-cool-wierd illogical silliness. But it's fun to speculate.
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post #3136 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by wuther View Post

We need speculate on the intended biological origins no more. Coming from Scott's mouth in the Starlog issue #26 (I actually have this) about a budget compromise merging two scenes: "It's the setting the original script refers to as a pyramid. Actually, it was to be more like a silo. It was a hugh architectural structure like a beehive, a honeycomb. When the party landed to investigate the alien transmission first they found the derelict with the dead alien crew, but not the alien."

This is backed up by the first draft I just read on the 2nd DVD disc (my individual BD has next to no extras) and I found a online version here:

http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/alien_early.html

The DVD has a Dan O'Bannon prologue of the draft, which I cannot find online, that explains where he got the ideas from the most important being a story he read of a pyramid on a planetoid with several derelict ships around it that lured spacecraft and 'stole' the crew's minds once they go inside.

In short the first draft spells out that the planetoid is a trap that the derelict ship stumbles upon and probably was just one of the last ships of several before the Snark(ugh!)/Nostromo arrives. The draft also spells out in the scene that was cut that the two cocooned crewman in the were to made into eggs/urns with one already finished. The draft starts out poorly but picks up by the time they set foot on the planetoid.

I would not be surprised if the pyramid, heiroglyphics and skeleton set in a rock (final draft) appears in Prometheus.

Interesting. The hive is like a pitcher plant luring in the insect prey. Nice concept. I always assumed Alien was pushing the idea that the eggs were cargo on the ship, which crashed (since we see nothing but the derelict). Facehugging of the SJ could've happened after the crash or prior to it (and thereby causing it perhaps). I guess that was reinforced in my mind by the repeated emphasis that the xenomorphs are bio-weapons: mentioned in Alien, solidified in Aliens, reinforced in Alien 3 and finally realized in Alien Resurrection.
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post #3137 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I assume you haven't seen any previews for Prometheus, then? Like I stated several posts back, Prometheus will end up being the story he didn't have money to tell the first time... whether that's good or bad remains to be seen. I'm hoping for the best.

No, this is the sequel he wanted everyone else to make.
He was perplexed as to why no one went back to the jockey.
Alien was exactly the movie he wanted to make.
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post #3138 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

I always assumed Alien was pushing the idea that the eggs were cargo on the ship, which crashed (since we see nothing but the derelict). Facehugging of the SJ could've happened after the crash or prior to it (and thereby causing it perhaps). I guess that was reinforced in my mind by the repeated emphasis that the xenomorphs are bio-weapons: mentioned in Alien, solidified in Aliens, reinforced in Alien 3 and finally realized in Alien Resurrection.

My take on it all too.

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post #3139 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 06:19 PM
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No, this is the sequel he wanted everyone else to make.
He was perplexed as to why no one went back to the jockey.
Alien was exactly the movie he wanted to make.

He made it clear in many interviews before, during, and after Alien that he had to leave a lot out due to time and budget constraints. The writers and producers are on record as well. I wont argue the point further, I'll just leave it like this: if Scott had been able to tell the whole story the first time, we wouldn't be getting Prometheus now. Some of it would have been explored in the sequel too, but the initial scope of Alien was much, much bigger.
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post #3140 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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He made it clear in many interviews before, during, and after Alien that he had to leave a lot out due to time and budget constraints. The writers and producers are on record as well. I wont argue the point further, I'll just leave it like this: if Scott had been able to tell the whole story the first time, we wouldn't be getting Prometheus now. Some of it would have been explored in the sequel too, but the initial scope of Alien was much, much bigger.

Not what he said in this months empire, nor any interview i have seen
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post #3141 of 3199 Old 04-01-2012, 07:15 PM
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Not what he said in this months empire, nor any interview i have seen

Alien was released more than 30 years ago. Its possible he's either a) lying or b) convinced himself that Alien was exactly what he wanted to make. Or at least a healthy combination of the two, that he's come to terms with the fact that Alien was exactly what he wanted to make that he could with available budget and tech at the time.

You could probably find quotes from George Lucas spouting the same BS.

In 1977: "Star Wars is exactly the film I wanted to make! It stands alone."
In 1980: "I needed to flesh out this Luke character."
In 1983: "I had to complete the story."
In 1997: "I had to tweak a few things about my perfect film from 20 years ago."
In 1999: "I have to destroy everyone's childhood."
In 2010: "All that futzing about I did, well it wasn't enough. Blu-Ray!"

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I assume you haven't seen any previews for Prometheus, then? Like I stated several posts back, Prometheus will end up being the story he didn't have money to tell the first time... whether that's good or bad remains to be seen. I'm hoping for the best.

I have no clue what you trying to start an argument on. Anyway somehow I got the idea that Prometheus would be a prequel.

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Interesting. The hive is like a pitcher plant luring in the insect prey. Nice concept. I always assumed Alien was pushing the idea that the eggs were cargo on the ship, which crashed (since we see nothing but the derelict). Facehugging of the SJ could've happened after the crash or prior to it (and thereby causing it perhaps). I guess that was reinforced in my mind by the repeated emphasis that the xenomorphs are bio-weapons: mentioned in Alien, solidified in Aliens, reinforced in Alien 3 and finally realized in Alien Resurrection.

The heiroglyphics make it clear the alien is a untamable bio-weapon to attack ETs which they have a grude against. Why can be debated but I surmised after seeing Alien in it's 2nd release in the 80's that it was to get back at offworld slavers a very long time ago.
A pitcher plant would not be how I would describe it since the bio-weapon purpose is to be portable and can start a new hive on another planet.
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Originally Posted by egrady View Post


+1

Alien 3 as a stand alone film is fine, I've often wondered what I'd have thought of it had I seen it first. But, there is simply to much disconnect between what happened in Aliens and the begining of A3 for me to accept.

I've thought the same thing. I believe that if Alien 3 were the first movie, it would be looked at vastly different, and in an much more positive light. For me, it is hugely underrated and a very good movie, worthy of the series.

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post #3144 of 3199 Old 04-02-2012, 04:00 PM
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A3 was the first one I got to see in theaters, and I still love the cinematography. It's the most visually interesting of all four films, IMO.

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post #3145 of 3199 Old 04-02-2012, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

A3 was the first one I got to see in theaters, and I still love the cinematography. It's the most visually interesting of all four films, IMO.

Res was my first, saw it with a beautiful bypass print in DTS.
will always strike a chord with me.
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post #3146 of 3199 Old 04-02-2012, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Res was my first, saw it with a beautiful bypass print in DTS.
will always strike a chord with me.

I have always felt Res was much more interesting visually that A3.

In some respects, Res is cut from the same cloth as Aliens...more of an Action Film than anything else (while A3 is more in tune with Alien).
Of course, Res and A3 are NOT classics, while the 1st 2 of the series are.

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post #3147 of 3199 Old 04-03-2012, 09:02 AM
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Saw the trailer of Prometheus before The Hunger Games. If anyone in the audience didn't already know this was an Alien movie (or in the same universe as Alien, at least), they'd have no indication based on the trailer.

~Tighr: Not helping the situation since 1983

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post #3148 of 3199 Old 04-03-2012, 09:03 AM
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post #3149 of 3199 Old 04-03-2012, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

If anyone in the audience didn't already know this was an Alien movie (or in the same universe as Alien, at least), they'd have no indication based on the trailer.

You must've seen a radically different trailer than the rest of us have seen.

I don't feel special...
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post #3150 of 3199 Old 04-03-2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Saw the trailer of Prometheus before The Hunger Games. If anyone in the audience didn't already know this was an Alien movie (or in the same universe as Alien, at least), they'd have no indication based on the trailer.

Then they weren't paying attention. I could go on ad infinitum describing via text, but this works better:

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