Star Trek TNG Seasons Remastered on Blu-Ray - Page 47 - AVS Forum
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post #1381 of 2440 Old 02-01-2012, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dlbsyst View Post

Wow, I didn't hear anything like that on my system. Are you sure you don't have night mode or dynamic range compression activated somewhere in your system chain. I was watching The Phantom Menace Laser Disc the other day and noticed the AC-3 audio didn't sound as spectacular as I remember and then discovered I had dynamic range compression activated in my Yamaha receiver. Turned it off and boy what a difference. Back to amazing jaw dropping audio.

Yeah, I'm sure. That was my first guess, actually, but I went through and made sure that was turned off, and made sure there wasn't any compression enabled on either of the BD players either. Totally flummoxed.
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post #1382 of 2440 Old 02-01-2012, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mboszko View Post

Yeah, I'm sure. That was my first guess, actually, but I went through and made sure that was turned off, and made sure there wasn't any compression enabled on either of the BD players either. Totally flummoxed.

Do you have your Blu-ray player set to output DTS-MA as bitstream or PCM? I have my Panasonic set to output PCM as I found I have more options available from my receiver. mboszko, I noticed your Denon has something called "Audyssey's Dynamic Volume processing". Could it have something to do with that? And is it something that you can turn off?
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post #1383 of 2440 Old 02-01-2012, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dlbsyst View Post

Do you have your Blu-ray player set to output DTS-MA as bitstream or PCM? I have my Panasonic set to output PCM as I found I have more options available from my receiver.

Tried it both ways from the PS3, no difference. Didn't try PCM from the Panasonic.

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Originally Posted by dlbsyst View Post

I noticed your Denon has something called "Audyssey's Dynamic Volume processing". Could it have something to do with that? And is it something that you can turn off?

That was definitely turned off. That's the Audyssey version of compressed dynamic range/night mode. (And that does screw with the surround levels, which is why I suspected it at first, but I triple-checked it.)

[pulls out hair]
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post #1384 of 2440 Old 02-01-2012, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mboszko View Post

Tried it both ways from the PS3, no difference. Didn't try PCM from the Panasonic.



That was definitely turned off. That's the Audyssey version of compressed dynamic range/night mode. (And that does screw with the surround levels, which is why I suspected it at first, but I triple-checked it.)

[pulls out hair]

Well, I don't know what to tell you accept to wish you luck in getting this sorted out.
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post #1385 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 05:07 AM
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A has sent me an email telling me my copy has shipped. Can't wait to pop that into the PS3 and see some HD TNG goodness....

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post #1386 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 10:49 AM
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The disc looks incredible. I wasn't impressed by the 7.1 tracks.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #1387 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

the disc looks incredible. I wasn't impressed by the 7.1 tracks.

+1
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post #1388 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

The disc looks incredible. I wasn't impressed by the 7.1 tracks.

With any luck I'll be able to watch the full disc tonight. What didn't impress you? Immersion? Dynamics? LFE?

I was planning on watching them in stereo first (with and without PLIIx movie mode active) and then sampling the 7.1. As I recall, TNG contained PL info when broadcast.
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post #1389 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by nick_danger View Post

With any luck I'll be able to watch the full disc tonight. What didn't impress you? Immersion? Dynamics? LFE?

I was planning on watching them in stereo first (with and without PLIIx movie mode active) and then sampling the 7.1. As I recall, TNG contained PL info when broadcast.

For me, it seemed the music in the 7.1 mix was spread to all channels and sounds almost like it's around your head, too hollow or artificial. I only watched "Farpoint". Everything else sounded really good.
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post #1390 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_danger View Post

With any luck I'll be able to watch the full disc tonight. What didn't impress you? Immersion? Dynamics? LFE?

I was planning on watching them in stereo first (with and without PLIIx movie mode active) and then sampling the 7.1. As I recall, TNG contained PL info when broadcast.

The first three seasons were "stereo surround". Season 4 onwards were Dolby encoded. When I first watched The Best of Both Worlds Part II I wondered why the sound seemed more..."focused". When I saw the credits I realized why.

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post #1391 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 12:25 PM
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Watched the other two episodes on the disc this evening. Enjoyed them very much. Felt the sound mix was much better than Farpoint too - more balanced. Farpoint felt a bit strange.

Also, re: Sins Of The Father, the upscaled footage really didn't detract from the episode. I only barely noticed the computer panel shot being SD. The Riker/Crusher bit just looked like a poorly focussed shot. They've integrated it nicely - no sudden ratio change or transmission lines round the edge. Still, I hope there aren't worse cases of missing footage - too much of that would get annoying.

Looking forward to the full first season on Blu-ray! Now I've seen what the quality of this show can be like, it looks like it's all 7 seasons for me!
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post #1392 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 12:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gushin View Post


For me, it seemed the music in the 7.1 mix was spread to all channels and sounds almost like it's around your head, too hollow or artificial. I only watched "Farpoint". Everything else sounded really good.

It was mostly music and engine hum in the rears on most episodes.
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post #1393 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gushin View Post

For me, it seemed the music in the 7.1 mix was spread to all channels and sounds almost like it's around your head, too hollow or artificial. I only watched "Farpoint". Everything else sounded really good.

Isn't the sign of a good surround mix that the music surrounds you? I guess I'll find out when I sit down with it. I guess it's not too surprising that the pilot episode would have problems of some kind. And if that's the worst of it... well...

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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

The first three seasons were "stereo surround". Season 4 onwards were Dolby encoded. When I first watched The Best of Both Worlds Part II I wondered why the sound seemed more..."focused". When I saw the credits I realized why.

Cool, good to know. Thanks!
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post #1394 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mboszko View Post

Forgive me for jumping in here.

Teiresias, did you ever figure out what the issue was? I just gave the TNG-HD disc a go tonight, and I've tried it on two different Blu-ray players (my usual PS3, and a Panasonic model) through my Denon AVR-1909 with 7.1 setup (which usually sounds phenomenal), and it sounds really weird to me too.

As far as I can tell, it sounds almost like there's level compression applied to all of the tracks separately, so the surrounds sound a lot hotter than they should, and there's some weird jumps in levels. The latter is especially noticeable during the opening title sequence on "Farpoint", in the pause between the horn phrases in the score, the levels get really hot, and when the horns come back in, they're really loud, but then it's as if the compressor compensates and the levels go back down. It's super noticeable, like the attack setting on the compressor is REALLY slow.

I investigated every setting I could get my hands on, but there didn't seem to be any compression applied anywhere in my chain, and it still did it even if I turned off my usual Audyssey EQ. I figure something in my chain must be wonky, as I find it hard to believe they'd screw up the remix this bad, and there's very few people complaining about it.

Not sure what to investigate, as the system usually sounds great. Not sure that I've ever played any other "DTS Master" streams, though, so maybe that's a clue? Any suggestions welcome.

Watched Farpoint yesterday and also found the mix very quiet (DTS-HD MA track). Had to turn my amp up a bit. Even then the surrounds were a bit too prominent for my tastes. I also found that the title music seemed to be mixed equally in all channels, sounding more like a surround demo gimmick than an actual recording. I'm sure it's a mixing quirk, and not a fault with either of our systems.

I remember the TOS Blus were also mixed very low, so that when you returned to the menu the volume was uncomfortably loud in comparison.

While the PQ was stellar, I completely forgot about it after the first five minutes and was engrossed in the story. It's been five minutes and already I'm taking TNG in HD for granted Season 1 this summer? I'm there!
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post #1395 of 2440 Old 02-02-2012, 11:30 PM
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When I get my disc soon I will try it in both TMT3 and will also be decoding the 7.1 track to 7.1 FLAC so I will chip in on what I think of the track then and see if what you guys are saying is true
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post #1396 of 2440 Old 02-03-2012, 06:22 AM
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I watched Farpoint last night too. I loved it! The effects were neat, the characters were awesome, and it all looked glorious on my 131" projector screen!

My only criticisms are two particular scenes. When the Camera is focused on Picard during the trial scene, the top part of the screen was kind of blackened out. Also, the scene where Picard is debriefing Riker in the ready room, it seemed very fuzzy and grainy. Other than that, the pilot episode looked great!

Not as a criticism, but more of an amusing note. I love how they did the old school TOS style planet with an orange sky for the old Bandi city. Odd that the sky around Farpoint station was normal.

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post #1397 of 2440 Old 02-03-2012, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mboszko View Post

Forgive me for jumping in here.

Teiresias, did you ever figure out what the issue was? I just gave the TNG-HD disc a go tonight, and I've tried it on two different Blu-ray players (my usual PS3, and a Panasonic model) through my Denon AVR-1909 with 7.1 setup (which usually sounds phenomenal), and it sounds really weird to me too.

As far as I can tell, it sounds almost like there's level compression applied to all of the tracks separately, so the surrounds sound a lot hotter than they should, and there's some weird jumps in levels. The latter is especially noticeable during the opening title sequence on "Farpoint", in the pause between the horn phrases in the score, the levels get really hot, and when the horns come back in, they're really loud, but then it's as if the compressor compensates and the levels go back down. It's super noticeable, like the attack setting on the compressor is REALLY slow.

I investigated every setting I could get my hands on, but there didn't seem to be any compression applied anywhere in my chain, and it still did it even if I turned off my usual Audyssey EQ. I figure something in my chain must be wonky, as I find it hard to believe they'd screw up the remix this bad, and there's very few people complaining about it.

Not sure what to investigate, as the system usually sounds great. Not sure that I've ever played any other "DTS Master" streams, though, so maybe that's a clue? Any suggestions welcome.

I have a similar setup to you, only using a Denon AVR-789 (same as the 1909 I believe) but only hooked up to a 5.1 speaker setup.

I only own a "fat" launch window PS3 as my Blu-Ray player, so it can't bitstream any of the HD codecs, so I have it outputting LPCM. What I did notice was that I had 7.1 output selected on the PS3 as an available option, so the PS3 was outputting 7.1 PCM and the Denon was having to downmix it to 5.1. I'm not sure how well it does that, so I went in to the PS3 options and manually set the audio output options to a maximum output of 5.1 (left all the 7.1 option unchecked). I can't find a definitive answer to whether the PS3 set to output PCM will downmix a 7.1 mix properly if you tell it you only want 5.1 out, so that may not be working well at all. Either way, the mix was still weird even when the Denon didn't have to do anything.

Turning off Audyssey EQ helped the mix a bit, but I generally have no issues with Audyssey EQ on actual Blu-Ray mixes (it doesn't play nice with surround mixes of video games at all, so I always turn it off for those), aside from feeling AudyEQ generally overcooks the bass in my system on everything. Thinking about it now though, I may have my Harmony remote default to turning on Audyssey EQ + Dynamic Volume when I turn on the MultEQ, so I'll have to check that. I'm in an apartment, so I think when I initially set up the system I thought Dynamic Volume would help, but the Audyssey cooks the bass so much that it doesn't really buy me anything to begin with so I may as well just set my system to only use MultEQ and forget about Dynamic Volume.

Setting the PS3 to bitstream (so that it was bitstreaming a DVD-like 5.1 1.4Mbps DTS audio track) made the mix and surround speaker use sound much better and more "normal", but obviously I was giving up the HD audio quality.

I haven't checked the opening title sequence on the other two episodes yet to see what they sound like. I'll do that when I get a chance (next week).
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post #1398 of 2440 Old 02-03-2012, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by cobolisdead View Post

My only criticisms are two particular scenes. When the Camera is focused on Picard during the trial scene, the top part of the screen was kind of blackened out.

That's always been there, some kind of lens effect the director used. I'm sure some people didn't see it the first time if they had heavy overscan on their TVs.

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Not as a criticism, but more of an amusing note. I love how they did the old school TOS style planet with an orange sky for the old Bandi city. Odd that the sky around Farpoint station was normal.

Not sure what you mean here, the shots of Farpoint (outside) are all miniature photography and they used the same orange backdrop. There are no outside scenes in the station itself.

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post #1399 of 2440 Old 02-03-2012, 10:27 AM
 
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I forgot how "old" Farpoint really was. Really no worse than a Lucas written Star Wars, but it was jarring from how I remembered it (not having seen it in years). But, it was the wind up before the charters really became their own in the actors eyes, and before a full nest of writers were brought on to round out the edges. Also before they had the cinematography and editing down to a science.

One jarring example is them running from Q, trying desperately to hatch a plan to save the civilians on board for this omnipotent entity, only for Goldsmith's booming music to come up as the Enterprise separates. While it's good, uplifting Enterprise music, it really screwed a scene where there should have been tension and fear. A lot of character building and establishing shots also were poorly thrown in. Picards visit to Crusher was one example, not only kind of weird in where it was stuck, but in the really, really bad dialogue written for them.

But, most of these problems melt away by the time you view SOTF and The Inner Light.

I was very surprised to see focus changes in static shots between Worf and Picard as they talked back and forth. Something I never noticed in the show before. And for all the complaints, the lighting really isn't as bad as once thought. The Bridge and other working areas of the ship are, but it looks like the lighting dept took ample use of their other sets to show some interesting use of lighting. So some episodes will be better than others.

I'm excited. Season 1 might not be a purchase because it only has a few episodes I actually enjoyed, but the later seasons are really going to rock.
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post #1400 of 2440 Old 02-03-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

That's always been there, some kind of lens
Not sure what you mean here, the shots of Farpoint (outside) are all miniature photography and they used the same orange backdrop. There are no outside scenes in the station itself.

Well, when they are in the market place, it looks like they have a blue sky. I'll go back tonight and check.

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post #1401 of 2440 Old 02-03-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

That's always been there, some kind of lens effect the director used. I'm sure some people didn't see it the first time if they had heavy overscan on their TVs.

Yup, I remember that shot from the DVD as well. It does appear to be more prevalent on the Blu-ray, but that's likely because the film scan exposes of the frame.

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Not sure what you mean here, the shots of Farpoint (outside) are all miniature photography and they used the same orange backdrop. There are no outside scenes in the station itself.

The scene where Riker beams up after the Enterprise arrives, there's the same orange backdrop behind him.

That Bandi city definitely had the TOS feel to it, and I don't mean that in a good way. OK for a shoe-string budget 1960s show, but for 1987, nuh uh. The one in Hide and Q for the "games" is about as bad as it gets. I'm glad they did more location work later in the series, including the later TV shows.

Imagine if Darmok was shot in a studio with "alien" backdrops....eww.
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post #1402 of 2440 Old 02-03-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

The disc looks incredible. I wasn't impressed by the 7.1 tracks.

I definitely preferred the 2.0 mix.
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post #1403 of 2440 Old 02-04-2012, 07:58 AM
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Haven't watched the whole disc yet, but the Sins of the Father episode seemed to have some audio sync issues on 7.1. I noticed several times the Kingon's mouths kept moving slightly after dialogue had stopped. Anyone else notice this?
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post #1404 of 2440 Old 02-04-2012, 09:32 AM
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Watched the whole disc last night and went back to a couple scenes.

First off, hot DAMN it's a great looking disc. The audio betrays its production value a little, but overall it's wonderful. There were a couple moments during SOTF and TIL where the sound design and lighting came together in a most cinematic way. Most impressive. I would say that the most dramatic improvement is simply being able to read the faces, eyes, and minute expressions of the characters - many of the scenes took on a whole new level of emotion. The tiniest nuances in facial expression, the welling of tears that simply weren't visible in SD, really added a lot. We had just recently watched these episodes in SD, so we were very keen to point out many things we noticed. I only wish I had taken notes.

In Farpoint, for example, I've seen that episode countless times but never before noticed the model of the ruined old city. While I'm sure many others have noticed it, I have just never seen it as anything but lumpy brown hills next to Farpoint Station in SD. Just that in itself was a revelation and gave a sense of scale and proximity to the episode that I never had before.

Also, did they change the color of the gold uniforms throughout the series? Perhaps they just faded by season 5? All I know is that the change stood out and I never noticed it before.

I'm not sure that I can point out much else about the visuals that aren't already apparent in the screenshots circulating around the web.

As for the audio, I was really struggling between the 2.0 and 7.1 mix. My setup is 5.1, so I'm sure I can't comment on the precision of the 7.1 mix as well as others, but the most noticeable differences were between Farpoint and the other two episodes. Farpoint's audio showed its age and budget, there's no way around it. I would have to agree with some others that the 7.1 mix is too loud or too active in the surrounds. I found myself frequently distracted by the surround activity, sometimes drowning out the dialog in the center channel. However, when listening to 2.0 with and without DPLIIx, it was much better. I think if they turned the volume on the surrounds down just a little bit and spread the dialog across the front stage a little more, it would be the perfect balance.

Also, LFE in the episodes was rather inconsistent - in particular every scene where they jump to warp or drop out of warp. Sometimes the hum and charge up shook the room, other times it was impotent. Again, the biggest difference was between the pilot and the later episodes. These differences could just be the way the episode was designed and won't ever be changed...

I don't know if this sampler represents their best effort or if they are looking for feedback, but it's clear that the video needs nothing, the transfer is gorgeous. The surround mix feels too aggressive for the content, though, and far too inconsistent LFE. I'd like to enjoy the 7.1 mix, but the 2.0 just feels much more balanced and appropriate (probably because it's the original mix LOL).
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post #1405 of 2440 Old 02-04-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonbek777 View Post

Haven't watched the whole disc yet, but the Sins of the Father episode seemed to have some audio sync issues on 7.1. I noticed several times the Kingon's mouths kept moving slightly after dialogue had stopped. Anyone else notice this?

Yes, they didn't do a very good job of dubbing the re-recorded actors into a few scenes, but I think it's the same on other versions... However, other sound effects in the same scene sounded just right, so my guess is that they weren't able to change it? I really don't know.
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post #1406 of 2440 Old 02-04-2012, 01:07 PM
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Not enamoured with the video quality myself (UK sampler). It looks too bright and overdone, especially on people's faces. If they could only tame the contrast a little bit...
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post #1407 of 2440 Old 02-04-2012, 07:29 PM
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Considering the disc opened with a choice of languages (10 to choose from, I think), and it's region-free, I suspect it's the same disc everywhere, with no difference but the packaging.

Bob Simandl ... somewhere near St. Louis
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post #1408 of 2440 Old 02-05-2012, 02:01 AM
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Watched the pilot. Image quality is pretty good but not better than the original series, probably even less sharp. The 7.1 mix was poor concerning the music. Very unnatural back dominant balance.
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post #1409 of 2440 Old 02-06-2012, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Watched the pilot. Image quality is pretty good but not better than the original series, probably even less sharp.

Really? The TOS Blu-rays look a bit too DNR'd for my tastes. I still enjoy them, but TNG appears to have more intact grain. Here's my obligatory, completely unscientific comparison:



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post #1410 of 2440 Old 02-06-2012, 04:50 AM
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TOS is over-compressed, you can see the macroblocking. Its level of detail does not approach that of TNG. I don't think it's a matter of opinion.

Dillon: My men were in that chopper when it got hit! Hopper's orders were to go in and remove grain and the detail just disappeared.
Dutch: It didn't disappear. It was scrubbed alive!
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