Star Trek TNG Seasons Remastered on Blu-Ray - Page 52 - AVS Forum
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post #1531 of 2440 Old 04-11-2012, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

That said, I don't get nearly the "wow" or joy out of watching these episodes as I do from the original series. The OS looks simultaneously more "wow" in terms of detail, yet more film-like and more dramatic and cinematic as well. Not to mention I find the characters and acting (especially Spock and early Kirk) more compelling on the OS.

Different strokes, I suppose. The moods, sets, colors, focus, and eras of the two shows are so entirely different that I'm not sure a comparison is even appropriate. I'm not trying to discount your opinion... just redirect it maybe?
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post #1532 of 2440 Old 04-12-2012, 10:32 AM
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The lost footage from Sins of the Father has been found, hooray!

http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/#sotffound

Now hopefully when the episode is presented properly in the season 3 set, it won't be cropped. (or other episodes, for that matter)
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post #1533 of 2440 Old 04-12-2012, 11:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nick_danger View Post

Different strokes, I suppose. The moods, sets, colors, focus, and eras of the two shows are so entirely different that I'm not sure a comparison is even appropriate. I'm not trying to discount your opinion... just redirect it maybe?

Plus it took them, give or take, 3 years to lock down what worked and what didn't on the new show. even in the chosen episodes you can see huge difference in stylization, cinematography, and music, ect.

Farpoint is neat, but it's horrible TV. I just keep coming back to the unnecessary and awkward scene where Picard tells Crusher he'll "let" her transfer to a different post.
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post #1534 of 2440 Old 04-12-2012, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jimbotron View Post

The lost footage from Sins of the Father has been found, hooray!

http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/#sotffound

Now hopefully when the episode is presented properly in the season 3 set, it won't be cropped. (or other episodes, for that matter)

[Mr. Burns]Excellent.[/Mr. Burns]
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post #1535 of 2440 Old 04-12-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jimbotron View Post

The lost footage from Sins of the Father has been found, hooray!

I'm really glad that they found it this early in the remastering process. That gives me hope that there won't be any more problems with missing footage for the upcoming seasons.

So, how many people are going to demand an exchange program for their Next Level disc? Just kidding!

Movies look their best when they look like movies. More Patton-esque remasters!

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post #1536 of 2440 Old 04-12-2012, 12:45 PM
 
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The SD/Low quality splices in Friends are unobtrusive, but I am glad they are going for effort + rather than the ER scan and not fix method.
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post #1537 of 2440 Old 04-16-2012, 11:20 AM
 
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I'm more worried about the framing error seen in SOTF. Hopefully the speculation that they used a test run for widescreen is correct.

Also caught up lurking over at the TrekBBS thread. It's sad so many over there are arguing for 100% replacement of the visual FX with new CGI to satiate their need for wizz bank explosions and sexy new camera angles.

I'm fine with them recreating scenes where it's needed and impossible to replicate otherwise. But pulling a TOS-R is something that should be left to a fan internet project IMO. Let fans create and splice them into the HD episodes (you know someone will).

CBS doesn't have the time or money to do both, and removing the original FX would be heresy. If they did do both, both would suffer from the split budget, as TOS-R did.

Anyway you slice it, it's stupid.
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post #1538 of 2440 Old 04-16-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Also caught up lurking over at the TrekBBS thread. It's sad so many over there are arguing for 100% replacement of the visual FX with new CGI to satiate their need for wizz bank explosions and sexy new camera angles.

TrekBBS is insane, I would take anything those posters say with a grain of salt. Especially when you venture away from the discussion-based threads and into the more opinion-based threads.

There's also the fact that the TNG-R thread there moves at warp speed, compared to you having the first post in this thread in 5 days.

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post #1539 of 2440 Old 04-16-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Anyway you slice it, it's stupid.

It's not stupid thinking maybe some of the too often-used stock footage should be replaced. Using the same battle footage from Yesterday's Enterprise in episodes like Redemption and Rascals lessens the impact of those battle scenes. I always cringed when they bent over backwards trying to recomp a shot just to use old FX elements. Not to mention all the ancient 23rd century vessels: you have the state of the art Enterprise-D and hundreds of Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth class vessels for everything else. Ridiculous.

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post #1540 of 2440 Old 04-16-2012, 03:21 PM
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TNG is not to be criticized.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
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post #1541 of 2440 Old 04-16-2012, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

I'm more worried about the framing error seen in SOTF. Hopefully the speculation that they used a test run for widescreen is correct.

Also caught up lurking over at the TrekBBS thread. It's sad so many over there are arguing for 100% replacement of the visual FX with new CGI to satiate their need for wizz bank explosions and sexy new camera angles.

I'm fine with them recreating scenes where it's needed and impossible to replicate otherwise. But pulling a TOS-R is something that should be left to a fan internet project IMO. Let fans create and splice them into the HD episodes (you know someone will).

CBS doesn't have the time or money to do both, and removing the original FX would be heresy. If they did do both, both would suffer from the split budget, as TOS-R did.

Anyway you slice it, it's stupid.

You know it does seem like someone can and will decide to redo the special effects.

You can never judge a show by its pilot episode or the half season following it.
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post #1542 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 07:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

TNG is not to be criticized.

Oh no, it's to be criticized. But it shouldn't be changed erased and reformatted to a few's subjective and changing opinions on how "to make it better".

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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

It's not stupid thinking maybe some of the too often-used stock footage should be replaced. Using the same battle footage from Yesterday's Enterprise in episodes like Redemption and Rascals lessens the impact of those battle scenes. I always cringed when they bent over backwards trying to recomp a shot just to use old FX elements. Not to mention all the ancient 23rd century vessels: you have the state of the art Enterprise-D and hundreds of Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth class vessels for everything else. Ridiculous.

Actually, it's incredibly stupid and short sighted. Especially since there simply isn't going to be a budget anywhere near the numbers they'd need to fill 7 whole seasons with all new CGI FX shots, on top of all the live action reconstituting they need to do. Anything we'd get would look like the TOS-R dreck that was released (and was after the fact called "made to look like TOS" when they realized how bad time and budget limitations would effect their CGI). You want to talk about horrible CGI? It's Starfox Polygons in space.. and much worse than the original model work for even that show. It might be clear and not better animated / shot, but it wasn't very detailed and looked crummy.

And even then, if they could replace all the ship shots with better CGI, they'd then have to drop all the original FX model work, as there'd be no money to redo that for HD.

Plus, where do you stop? Whats too much? Why one change, and not another? Q's light ship is kinda retro looking and boring. Let's flare it up a bit. Maybe we can throw in CGI models of new borg, since old borg looked like someone who knocked over the shelves in the plumbing section of home depot. ect.

Honestly as said. Trekkies have the time, and if they want to recut them with new CGI and put them out on torrent, by all means. I'm for it! It be a interesting fan project, and it would get the attention needed to work, as an alternative FX cut.

But for CBS to waste money and time on rewriting history and the life work of hundreds of professionals? No thanks.

Part of the charm for me has always been how much the FX crew did with how little, time and money. It deserves not to be thrown in the trash bin of history to appease the flash bang fans of DS9 who think trek is only ship battles and photon torpedoes. And thats not even the argument for completely changing what a litany of people, from directors, to editors to the Fx consultants, decided worked best for each episode.
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post #1543 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Actually, it's incredibly stupid and short sighted. Especially since there simply isn't going to be a budget anywhere near the numbers they'd need to fill 7 whole seasons with all new CGI FX shots, on top of all the live action reconstituting they need to do.

Some of us aren't asking for all-new effects.

I'm asking stock shots and over-used models be replaced. The time and effort spent by the FX artists are still there, just not repeated dozens upon of times.

FX should be treated like live action: if they used the same exact shot of Picard entering and leaving the bridge for those times he does you'd think it was equally stupid. At least when they used the same actor for multiple roles they changed his makeup & costume! Not the Excelsior...

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post #1544 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

Some of us aren't asking for all-new effects.

I'm asking stock shots and over-used models be replaced. The time and effort spent by the FX artists are still there, just not repeated dozens upon of times.

FX should be treated like live action: if they used the same exact shot of Picard entering and leaving the bridge for those times he does you'd think it was equally stupid. At least when they used the same actor for multiple roles they changed his makeup & costume! Not the Excelsior...

Very true, but the same thing that applies to the original airing, is also being applied to the restoration. Recreating all new, or even just retooling old FX stock shots is very cost prohibitive. We've already seen it in the sample, with a new digital matte painting of the Enterprise being used both in SOTF (with a bird of prey) and in Farpoint (traveling in space before saucer separation). Thats saving money and time for elsewhere, like having to redo Q's light ship and effects. Or new photons and explosions. Or a better glow around the jellyfish, and fixing the enterprises energy beam, and making it look pretty damn good than a hand drawn highlighter.

They could have gone with all new 3d rendered CGI, but that ups costs. Start doing that to every episode, and suddenly you need to cut down on other detail to save money, or completely switch to CGI because it's cheaper. If the latter, say good buy to resorting the old footage (even as I'd argue it be too cost prohibitive to even try all CGI).

I think I read somewhere that there were over 2000 FX shots in Farpoint alone. Not all huge, and not all needing comprehensive restoration, but it's still a lot of work. Now, add retooling stock shots like when the enterprise is being chased. It's just not realistic to expect, and that's not even getting into the argument for outright changing original works of cinema.

I just think it's wasted time and money, especially when people are already bitching about the costs of the new sets. New CGI would be cool as an option, even if just minimal for certain stock shots, but it's just not feasible in terms of the costs and budget of the project... if it were to be done right. And I don't trust them to do it right, after seeing what happened with the new CGI in TOS-R. They said they were trying to emulate what TOS did in a studio, but that was just PR cover for some very unprofessional and inadequate CGI.

Some on TrekBBS are arguing thats not the case, but looking at what fans have done vs what CBS did, it's pretty apparent who wins that argument. The new CBS CGI was cost-efficient dreck coated in marketing. It was reminiscent of FMV from the playstation 1 days, and didn't hold a candle to the model work they used originally.
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post #1545 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

FX should be treated like live action: if they used the same exact shot of Picard entering and leaving the bridge for those times he does you'd think it was equally stupid. At least when they used the same actor for multiple roles they changed his makeup & costume! Not the Excelsior...

Heh. I'm rewatching Enterprise at the moment and there's a digital matte painting of Starfleet Headquarters which gets used repeatedly, same people in the shot and everything. Such recycling is a time-honoured TV tradition that ain't hurting anyone, so I say leave it alone.
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post #1546 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 01:24 PM
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Such recycling is a time-honoured TV tradition that ain't hurting anyone, so I say leave it alone.

Me, too. Replacing re-used shots would bother me.

I don't feel special...
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post #1547 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

Heh. I'm rewatching Enterprise at the moment and there's a digital matte painting of Starfleet Headquarters which gets used repeatedly, same people in the shot and everything. Such recycling is a time-honoured TV tradition that ain't hurting anyone, so I say leave it alone.

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Me, too. Replacing re-used shots would bother me.

Watch the original 1978 Battlestar Galactica series. You'd be in heaven.

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post #1548 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

We've already seen it in the sample, with a new digital matte painting of the Enterprise being used both in SOTF (with a bird of prey) and in Farpoint (traveling in space before saucer separation). They could have gone with all new 3d rendered CGI, but that ups costs.

Digital mattes today often incorporate 3D rendered CGI. In this case, CBS digital had acquired a 3D mesh of the Enterprise D and they used it in several shots. In the shots you mention, it was rendered as a still and comped over moving stars. There were actually 3 shots replaced in the saucer-sep sequence in "Farpoint." The one you mention, the low angle looking up at the saucer moving away from the stardrive section, and a quick shot of the stardrive section warping toward the camera at the very end. Also, the opening shot of "Inner Light" was replaced with a similar, fully animated render of that same Enterprise D mesh.

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I think I read somewhere that there were over 2000 FX shots in Farpoint alone. Not all huge, and not all needing comprehensive restoration, but it's still a lot of work.

You added an extra zero there. More like 200. 2,000 would put it in league with Episode I.
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post #1549 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

Watch the original 1978 Battlestar Galactica series. You'd be in heaven.

Even nBSG has some stock shots of the fleets movements.

but that's the issue, that was all CGI and budgeted to work the first time run of the show.

Picking and choosing now, and replacing model work with CGI where not needed is going to add unwanted cost, or provide corners that will be cut. Besides the artistic/historic argument, I just don't think it would be done well enough to justify it on CBS's budget, which means don't do it at all.
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post #1550 of 2440 Old 04-17-2012, 03:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

Digital mattes today often incorporate 3D rendered CGI. In this case, CBS digital had acquired a 3D mesh of the Enterprise D and they used it in several shots. In the shots you mention, it was rendered as a still and comped over moving stars. There were actually 3 shots replaced in the saucer-sep sequence in "Farpoint." The one you mention, the low angle looking up at the saucer moving away from the stardrive section, and a quick shot of the stardrive section warping toward the camera at the very end. Also, the opening shot of "Inner Light" was replaced with a similar, fully animated render of that same Enterprise D mesh.



You added an extra zero there. More like 200. 2,000 would put it in league with Episode I.

Whoops, yup. That a slight difference!



As for the digital matte, I'm only pointing out it uses much less resources to render a camera angle, than a fluid scene with a movie camera. Further, and I'm no expert, but I'm sure they render the different plains of the matte separately (enterprise, star field, anything else), so they can make the changes for different episode uses. That's one shot that show up A LOT in the series. And having all the pieces done makes putting together the jigsaw for whatever intended use, easy, quick and fast. Just one of the reasons is was done like that from the get go.

You start tinkering with the those stock shots, decide to make it a 3d rotating view of the ship at warp, have to render a 3d scene and camera movement, and suddenly your render time is up from minuets to hours. And then you have to do something different for the next 27 times the old matte shows up in 7 years when the Enterprise needed to determinately get somewhere fast at warp, or stare down an single enemy ship. Crap, that's expensive and a lot more rendering time.

It's going to be interesting to see how they deal with planets, since there was a standard number and look to how many they had in the series and constantly reused them just like the other stock shots. That would be the easiest, and most subtle way to add additional CGI content that was different for each episode. But, that's more work, and more money.

And while they visited many more throughout the series (sometimes two a show), they only used around 30 stock ones created for the show. They will have to re-build some though, as these were done in post as far as I know.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in...ng_planets.htm

They did redo the town in Inner Light, so it might be possible. I just don't see them removing model and matte painting work where unnecessary and/or building things needlessly from scratch. And I don't think thats a bad thing.
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post #1551 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 08:48 AM
 
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post #1552 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Old info (for us) but a clip from WNMHGB and some season 1 shots:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/04/30/st...-ray-season-1/

http://www.thehdroom.com/news/Star-T...Revealed/10647

VERY NICE!!! Those screenshots at HDroom look fantastic! Can't wait!!!
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post #1553 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 02:41 PM
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VERY NICE!!! Those screenshots at HDroom look fantastic! Can't wait!!!

Still have the scaling issues though.

"The Naked Now" : the starship Tsiolkovsky (Oberth-class) is too damn big. Oberths are tiny, and crew only 80-90 people.

One of the few times I can remember when they got the Oberth scaling correct is the last shot of STAR TREK: GENERATIONS where an Oberth and a Miranda accompany the much larger Nebula-class USS Farragut and warp out.

So much for hoping the USS Stargazer is at its proper size in "The Battle".

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post #1554 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 06:10 PM
 
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Still have the scaling issues though.

"The Naked Now" : the starship Tsiolkovsky (Oberth-class) is too damn big. Oberths are tiny, and crew only 80-90 people.

One of the few times I can remember when they got the Oberth scaling correct is the last shot of STAR TREK: GENERATIONS where an Oberth and a Miranda accompany the much larger Nebula-class USS Farragut and warp out.

So much for hoping the USS Stargazer is at its proper size in "The Battle".

Got facebook? Michale and Denise Okuda are on there, and might take the suggestion.

While I'm not keen on over CGI'ing the original work, fixing scale issues is fine IMO. And it be much, much easier to do now that they're working with digital production rooms. Give him a message and suggest it.
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post #1555 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 08:49 PM
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I'm pleasantly surprised to see the Season 1 Gag Reel listed as a special feature with the set. I'm also pleased to see the Episodic promos on there as well. That, along with the Launch Promos and Introduction to the Series will really take me back (to 7 years old!).

Glad that CBS is investing in new content as well as offering the previous extras. Sadly, I guess it's just not in the cards to have episodic commentaries on Trek episodes. There's nothing like a well done commentary to make some of these episodes watchable. Maybe no one is able to get through a Season One episode without bouts of incredulous laughter.

The new screen shots posted at the HD Room look pretty good. Some soft shots in there (Riker on the precipice appear to be an upscale). Those old models look great in HD. I always loved the (totally recycled) shots of the Starbase model from Star Trek 3; beautifully lit and well detailed. I'm sure it suffers from problems of scale as well.

Exciting to see the new CG planetary Star Base. I wonder what the story on that is.
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post #1556 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 09:58 PM
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Those old models look great in HD. I always loved the (totally recycled) shots of the Starbase model from Star Trek 3; beautifully lit and well detailed.

Agreed! Those captures from "11001001" look absolutely fantastic. Here are a few I modified in Photoshop for desktop backgrounds:



Full res: http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8...sewide16x9.jpg




Full res: http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5...eclose16x9.jpg




Full res: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/279...inside16x9.jpg



Full res: http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5...ilical16x9.jpg
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post #1557 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 10:10 PM
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Talk about scale... The starbase in that episode was way too big.

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Talk about scale... The starbase in that episode was way too big.

Well, it needs to be able to fit the Enterprise. I think the trekkies explained it away as being an updated, larger version of the TOS spacedock.
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post #1559 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ThePhage View Post

Some soft shots in there (Riker on the precipice appear to be an upscale).

...

Exciting to see the new CG planetary Star Base. I wonder what the story on that is.

Just checked it at TrekCore. The matte shot from "Coming of Age" appears to be the same (so is the "Angel One" matte) just cropped a slight bit (it may be at the end of a zoom, can't recall.

And the Riker shot from "The Last Outpost" -- while soft -- has more apparent detail than the DVD. That was one of those rare anamorphically lensed VFX plates in which they panned and scanned across the 2.35:1 image area from right to left... and its relative softness may be because the screenshot was taken in the middle of the pan.
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post #1560 of 2440 Old 04-30-2012, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Well, it needs to be able to fit the Enterprise. I think the trekkies explained it away as being an updated, larger version of the TOS spacedock.

Starbase 74 would have been over 8 miles tall in order to fit the Enterprise D. Earth Spacedock was a more sensible 3 miles tall (still friggin huge).

This page is a pretty good resource on the treknobabble regarding the different sized starbases:
http://www.ditl.org/pagstations.php?sb74

~Tighr: Not helping the situation since 1983

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