Star Trek TNG Seasons Remastered on Blu-Ray - Page 83 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #2461 of 2474 Old 10-14-2016, 06:26 AM
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Meh, nevermind.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/column...ts/031816_1400

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post #2462 of 2474 Old 10-14-2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
I can fake it with cropping in Kodi, and it looks good for the most part, but having the "real deal" would be ideal.

Assuming you can adjust the "zoom" and crop more at the bottom than the top, I'm certain that scenes on the Bridge look properly framed in 16:9, here is a German Amazon review where the reviewer just did that and enclosed image samples, which, IMHO, speak for themselves: https://www.amazon.de/review/RF2E4YO...4266&store=DVD


However, close-up scenes remain critical because we just do not have access to the extra lateral image areas on the original negatives.


As it stands for me, the only way to get a wider 4:3 image is to set the overscan of my front projector to "full" which trims the areas on top and bottom (outside the original "safe action area", areas considered redundant by the directors, expecting the tube TV's overscan would trim these anyway) but keeps the extra areas at the sides.


Technically speaking, the original DVD releases already contained the original aspect ratio and the original image quality to satisfy any purists.


I really would have loved CBS to "boldy go where no one has gone before" (heck, TNG is about the art of entertainment, not the art of cinematography, IMHO), so I can just hope they consider this in any plans they still might have for DS9 and Voyager.

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post #2463 of 2474 Old 10-14-2016, 11:08 AM
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I really don't think that high pricing was the only reason but the lack of effort to re-format the series into 16:9 by intelligently using the extra side areas of the original negatives in close-up shots combined with zooming into the picture during panoramic (Bridge) shots
This is nonsense. The TNG Blu-rays sold poorly because the market for television shows on disc collapsed due to the proliferation of streaming services. Most viewers today would prefer the convenience of streaming old TV shows rather than buying them.

Star Trek: TNG ran for 7 seasons. With list prices of $129.99 per season, that's an investment of over $900 for the whole show. (Still around $600 with typical retailer discounts in the early weeks of release.) Then you're stuck finding shelf space for 7 box sets. That's an expense and a burden only the most hardcore of fans would commit to anymore.

Aspect ratio had nothing to do with anything. The box sets would not have sold any better reformatted to 16:9. In fact, they'd probably sell worse because the purists and hardcore fans (pretty much the only people actually buying TV shows on physical media) would opt out.

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post #2464 of 2474 Old 10-16-2016, 04:45 AM
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This is nonsense. The TNG Blu-rays sold poorly because the market for television shows on disc collapsed due to the proliferation of streaming services. Most viewers today would prefer the convenience of streaming old TV shows rather than buying them.
Were there any CBS market studies to back your "nonsense" claim? Then why did Fox release the X-Files on Blu-ray, if the market for television shows had "collapsed"? Besides, anybody remastering these television shows in HD knew from the start, that just the disc sales wouldn't be enough. The content providers also considered the remastering as an investment into the future, to have these shows in HD for streaming services and TV broadcasts.

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Star Trek: TNG ran for 7 seasons. With list prices of $129.99 per season, that's an investment of over $900 for the whole show. (Still around $600 with typical retailer discounts in the early weeks of release.) Then you're stuck finding shelf space for 7 box sets. That's an expense and a burden only the most hardcore of fans would commit to anymore.
Then why did the least liked first season sell so good on BD and how comes that sales steadily declined while the seasons got noticably better? This doesn't make a lot of sense until one considers the issue of aspect ratio. "Full Frame 1080p" gave a lot of folks, owning a 16:9 flat screen, not the correct idea.

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Aspect ratio had nothing to do with anything. The box sets would not have sold any better reformatted to 16:9. In fact, they'd probably sell worse because the purists and hardcore fans (pretty much the only people actually buying TV shows on physical media) would opt out.
In the absence of a study, this is merely a theory just as mine. Purists would have probably not bought the series in re-formatted 16:9 (how many purists actually did buy it in 4:3? Did they all put their money where their mouth is?) but I'm certain that the hardcore fans, such as myself, would not have minded a new form of presentation which, BTW, had been promised in the first 2011 teaser trailer "this time, reborn for the next [16:9] generation", emphasized by a closing "full frame 16:9" VFX shot with the Enterprise-D.


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post #2465 of 2474 Old 10-16-2016, 10:57 AM
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See the mighty fluster cuck that is the Buffy the Vampire Slayer "HD Remaster" fiasco. Just because some shots seem to crop just fine to 16X9 does not mean that would be universally applicable. As well if I recall correctly using TNG full frame for a 16x9 crop would result in a lot of offset framing.

As Josh Z mentioned a lot of what contributed to the under performance of TNG BD is in part due to streaming but I personally believe in addition to that longtime Trek fans were simply financially exhausted after numerous prior high priced home releases. Which is a shame since often the street price at release was about $60-80 and really was the best value in comparison to past releases and pricing.

I am still awaiting some better pricing in the last few seasons to offset the up front costs I paid for purchasing at release to support the remastering project. Alas it was not enough for DS9 and VOY get the green light. X-Files street price was dramatically lower than TOS or TNG were, not a fair comparison. Also I believe Fox did a better campaign with the series, the HD remastering project received increased exposure thanks to the new series, than CBS and Paramount did with their respective parts of Trek.

CBS and Paramount in particular really mishandled the 50th Anniversary for Star Trek; simply did the bare minimum along with very isolated movements of splurging.
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post #2466 of 2474 Old 10-16-2016, 02:02 PM
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I'm a Star Trek TNG fan. I watch them for free through Amazon Prime. I'd not be buying bluray's no matter what the aspect ratio is.

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post #2467 of 2474 Old 10-17-2016, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
As Josh Z mentioned a lot of what contributed to the under performance of TNG BD is in part due to streaming but I personally believe in addition to that longtime Trek fans were simply financially exhausted after numerous prior high priced home releases. Which is a shame since often the street price at release was about $60-80 and really was the best value in comparison to past releases and pricing.
Financially eshausted? I find that rather hard to believe.

Prior to the release of the first season on Blu-ray there was the "appetizer" ST-TNG The Next Level BD which, in addition to the teaser trailer I posted, contained episodes from different seasons including "Encounter at Farpoint", "Sins of the Father" (probably the one for the widescreen presentation which none of us has seen up to this day!) and "The Inner Light".

So fans did have the opportunity to learn what was coming at them and either wait (until all seasons had actually and really been remastered and/or became available in a "complete" BD box like in the UK or Germany) or purchase season by season.

On the contrary, fans that started by buying the first season were committed to get the entire series in HD, especially considering how unpopular the first two seasons were even among hardcore fans (add to this the production problems of Season Two). And I'm certain that the very same fans bought all seven seasons.

But again, the "Full Frame 1080p" label - at a time were the vast majority of HD TVs were 'full frame'16:9 - was misleading, hence the little 4:3 propaganda bonus film that came along with the Season One box, attempting to put average consumers' minds at ease.

IMHO, it didn't, hence the declining sales figures.
  • Season One revenue 5,730,000 $ - http://www.the-numbers.com/news/1296...neration-Debut
  • Season Five Revenue 430,000 $


    Unless we learn about a CBS study that tried to examine the reasons for the declining sales figures following Season One, it's pretty much guesswork but to exclude the possibility that the aspect ratio chosen might have something to do with it (or call it "nonsense") has all the characteristics of classic "denial" - and won't get us any closer to experience DS9 or Voyager in HD.

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post #2468 of 2474 Old 10-17-2016, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
This is nonsense. The TNG Blu-rays sold poorly because the market for television shows on disc collapsed due to the proliferation of streaming services. Most viewers today would prefer the convenience of streaming old TV shows rather than buying them.

Star Trek: TNG ran for 7 seasons. With list prices of $129.99 per season, that's an investment of over $900 for the whole show. (Still around $600 with typical retailer discounts in the early weeks of release.) Then you're stuck finding shelf space for 7 box sets. That's an expense and a burden only the most hardcore of fans would commit to anymore.

Aspect ratio had nothing to do with anything. The box sets would not have sold any better reformatted to 16:9. In fact, they'd probably sell worse because the purists and hardcore fans (pretty much the only people actually buying TV shows on physical media) would opt out.
In my case, I bought season1, then saw the poor job that was done with season 2 and stopped buying any more of them. Those MF'ers went cheap with an incompetent company and lost 6 seasons worth of my dollars.


If I want poor mastering (including fuzzy video), I can get that on streaming and blame my internet connection.
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post #2469 of 2474 Old 10-17-2016, 06:31 AM
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Those MF'ers went cheap with an incompetent company and lost 6 seasons worth of my dollars.

IIRC, it wasn't a question of saving money but to save time to have another team work on Season Two so the other could already process Season Three.


Here's a review of Season Two: http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/5231...ek_tng_s2.html


From Season Three onwards the problems you encountered
never happened again: http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/5232...ek_tng_s3.html

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post #2470 of 2474 Old 10-17-2016, 08:29 AM
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How season 2 was treated indeed poisoned the well for the ardent fans, unfortunately CBS did not provide a timely answer to the situation when they decided to discounting using HTVI for further seasons. Although HTVI did better with the X-Files some of their poorer habits still were used.

And yes the longtime fans were psychologically exhausted from buying Trek again at relative high prices. Recall that back in the day VHS TNG tapes had two episodes at $20-30 a pop. Ditto for TOS, then similar with those early DVD releases. Followed by absurdly high priced seasons sets on DVD that rarely dipped below $100 for years.

As I mentioned before the irony is that relatively speaking the TOS and TNG BR sets are near the pinnacle of quality and value, aside from both being able to benefit from better encoding, the street price of TNG at $60-80 is great deal for a new Trek release but in comparison to other shows on BR with much lower price points makes it feels like being taken advantage of once again.

There is nothing that will dissuade you from that ardent opinion that somehow the OAR was the real deal breaker, which it was not. You are drawing a perceived correlation as causation with this issue.

The reality of the matter is there are several contributing factors that caused the loss in interest and many longtime Trek fans are rather technologically savvy and it is no surprise to them that TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY are 4x3 shows. They are keenly aware of that fact from the numerous prior releases on VHS, LD, & DVD. Plus the overall community response across Trekdom favored OAR and not a reformat.
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post #2471 of 2474 Old 10-17-2016, 08:39 AM
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The reality of the matter is there are several contributing factors that caused the loss in interest and many longtime Trek fans are rather technologically savvy and it is no surprise to them that TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY are 4x3 shows. They are keenly aware of that fact from the numerous prior releases on VHS, LD, & DVD. Plus the overall community response across Trekdom favored OAR and not a reformat.
I agree with your assessment; in fact, I have my "top 20" (or so) episodes of TNG on LD (a mix of new and used purchases) that may very well end up being the only versions I ever buy. I knew going in that 4:3 and NTSC were how I saw them originally, and I figured I could stream any re-mastered versions as time went on.

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post #2472 of 2474 Old 10-18-2016, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
The reality of the matter is there are several contributing factors that caused the loss in interest and many longtime Trek fans are rather technologically savvy and it is no surprise to them that TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY are 4x3 shows. They are keenly aware of that fact from the numerous prior releases on VHS, LD, & DVD. Plus the overall community response across Trekdom favored OAR and not a reformat.
I wholeheartedly agree with "several contributing factors" but excluding the 4:3 aspect ratio as a contributing factor is denial.

The overall Trek community (of which I'm part and followed the BD release of TNG season by season at the Trek BBS) didn't "favor" OAR, they accepted it because
  • that 4:3 vs. 16:9 "documentary" that came along with Season One went into great lengths to highlight only the negative aspects that would have come with a widescreen reformat
  • they were never given the chance to see that "Sins of the Father" widescreen version presented to the CBS execs in 2011
Here is what Robert Meyer Burnett tweeted after he saw the comparison in 2011:

[sep 18] I cannot believe how good TNG looks in HD. Hoping they go with 16:9. This is one time the purist in me whole-heartedly supports the change.

[sep 19] CBS should put their excellent TNG 1:33 vs 16:9 demo online and let the fanbase vote. (16:9 would win by a landslide...).

[sep 19] TNG was photographed in such a boring fashion 16:9 can only help. But I can see both sides of the argument.


http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/star-trek-the-next-generation-in-hd.263383/

(I checked Twitter, he did indeed twitter these lines)

In the same aforementioned forum a guy working in the industry ("Vidiot") provided several technical comments, but I think these were of fundamental importance:

"I think there's a way to do 16x9 well and a way to do it badly. Granted, it's a compromise, but I think Paramount is going to have to do it in order to stay competitive and inject new life into the Show. ... As time marches on, all 4x3 is going to look "boring" in HD compared to 16x9. Essentially, 4x3 will be regarded by future audiences as an old format, similar to B&W. Some classic material (like Gone with the Wind, mentioned by Chris above) still works fine in 1.33, but TV is kind of in a special category; Star Trek in particular is something that Paramount is constantly trying to make money with. If a show looks dated, people are going to tend not to want to watch it, in spite of the content."

Ask yourself this: Would Gene Roddenberry have preferred the original aspect ratio or a widescreen reformat to ensure that new audiences would find interest in TNG and ultimately his positive vision of the future?

Anyway, I think it was clear from the beginning that for the TNG remastering project to become successful (i.e. successful enough so we'd also see DS9 and VOY remastered in HD) it didn't rely exclusively on the fanbase but to a large extent on public appeal and purchases by average customers outside the fanbase, too.

As it stands today, the fans got what the OAR purists asked for and TNG is about all we got.

The way I see it, not much else will be happening in the near future unless CBS will consider a TNG "Special Edition" in (a) widescreen and (b) with partially improved VFX shots in the style of DS9 and VOY (set in the same Trekverse time period).

If such a Special Edition were a success, there'd be new hope and chances for DS9 and VOY in HD.

And we’d finally get to see the original ILM VFX stock footage of the Enterprise-D in all its widescreen glory (illustrated below) – in contrast to the current “pan & scan” 4:3 version during all opening credits on Blu-ray.


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post #2473 of 2474 Old 10-18-2016, 11:31 AM
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I wholeheartedly agree with "several contributing factors" but excluding the 4:3 aspect ratio as a contributing factor is denial.
Black bars in the image are no longer the stigma they used to be. Viewers today, especially younger viewers, have had decades to get used to letterboxed movies on DVD and Blu-ray, and know what old TV shows look like on 16:9 televisions. Half these people shoot cell phone videos in portrait format and upload them to YouTube pillarboxed. It's just another part of the image.

You are greatly exaggerating the extent to which people care about this anymore. This isn't the old days, when people would return a "defective" DVD to the store because they believed parts of the picture were being covered up by the black bars. They eventually figured it out and got over it, and their kids have grown up in a multi-media environment saturated with content shot in all sorts of formats.

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The way I see it, not much else will be happening in the near future unless CBS will consider a TNG "Special Edition" in (a) widescreen and (b) with partially improved VFX shots in the style of DS9 and VOY (set in the same Trekverse time period).
You're dreaming if you think CBS is going to invest in remastering the whole show all over again just to fill your TV screen. Never going to happen.
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post #2474 of 2474 Old 10-18-2016, 11:47 AM
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You're dreaming if you think CBS is going to invest in remastering the whole show all over again.


From what I learned all the original negatives including all the available image areas were scanned and that the driving cost factor was to locate all the original elements, piece these together and have them cleaned and processed.

The "remastering" has been done, so any "reformatting" could be based on this essential work effort.
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