Audiophiles vs Cinavia: DRM that kills lossless sound on Blu-ray? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 02:47 PM
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I would have elected to convert the lossless-cinavia to the highest supported bitrate lossy DD (if it even needs to be taken out of the lossless regime, but I assume that has something to do with making the test "possible" on equipment available to regular people). At the very least, it should be the bitrate you find on any given bluray disc (what is that, 768 kb/s for DD+ or 1.5 Mb/s for DTS)? Why would there even be need to involve the dvd edition of the movie?

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post #122 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

I would have elected to convert the lossless-cinavia to the highest supported bitrate lossy DD (if it even needs to be taken out of the lossless regime, but I assume that has something to do with making the test "possible" on equipment available to regular people). At the very least, it should be the bitrate you find on any given bluray disc (what is that, 768 kb/s for DD+ or 1.5 Mb/s for DTS)? Why would there even be need to involve the dvd edition of the movie?

Ah, now I see the confusion for why you are against me mentioning the DVD audio. It's been confirmed that Cinavia is NOT on the DVD editions of the films. So, the lossy DD 448kbps on the DVD is Cinavia-free. Hence, I want to convert the Blu-ray Cinavia audio to lossy DD 448kbps. That way, you have one DD 448kbps with Cinavia, and one without. That's the only way I can imagine doing a fair comparison.
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post #123 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 03:09 PM
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The problem is, who knows what you can achieve on your DD encoder @ 448 kbps vs. what a mastering house achieves on its DD encoder @ 448 kbs. Normally, you would suspect there should be no difference if the number is the same, but that is entirely up in the air unless you are using the very same encoder in hardware + software...and how could you guarantee that?

Hence, I would just use the highest available bitrate for a lossless to lossy conversion. If you are dropping the lossless soundtrack down to dvd-quality audio, then you are most certainly changing the sound of the material (and hard to gauge if it will be an "identical" change that occurred when they made the dvd soundtrack for the dvd product). If you are deliberately changing the sound, then that breaks the test altogether.

Why not just use the lossy tracks that are already on a bluray disc as the reference? Those are the ones that are arguably "transparent", in the first place, and they won't have the Cinavia watermark (as I understood this topic is saying Cinavia is only being applied to the lossless track, but maybe I am wrong).

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post #124 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 03:17 PM
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You're right about my encoder vs. the mastering house - I have absolutely no idea if it would be the same or not (and if not, how different). I simply wanted to put the idea out there.

You are correct that so far, Cinavia is only being applied to the lossless track. So, I guess it would have to be compared in some way (encoding it to match the other lossy Blu-ray audio on the disc, or not) to the lossy audio we have available, but alas, you are correct that we won't know if we'd be doing it the same way the authoring house would.

I suppose we'll just have to wait it out and see what happens. Maybe some info on Cinavia will be leaked, maybe some audio experts will come up with something once more discs incorporate it, I don't know. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to hear the difference between a track that has it and a track that doesn't. The difference between the two can't be that obvious, if it's audible at all. But, I am a curious guy, so I want to know anyway (if it's audible or not).
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post #125 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 04:06 PM
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You have an inquisitive mind, and I enjoyed our exchange. I don't even know if encoding the lossless-cinavia audio to lossy is even a wise step. For all we know, the mere process of perceptual compression being applied on a digital watermark may yield a weird output such that even if the watermark was entirely inaudible before, the resulting artifact of the watermark being sent through perceptual compression may have an audible signature. Hence we would end up all in arms that we can absolutely detect and hear this watermark on the lossy-converted sample, but what we might be hearing is the watermark artifact as it appears on the lossy sample, not how it was in its original/intended presence on the lossless track.

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post #126 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 04:12 PM
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I definitely enjoyed our exchange too, and have been enjoying AVSforum very much since I registered. And, while I don't like the Cinavia DRM, I have to give proper respect to the people who designed it. It does seem to be a very resilient form of DRM. The fact that Cinavia is still present on a recording done with a microphone is astounding - especially when us humans can't even hear it (and if we can, don't even know we are hearing it when we are). Ahh, technology...
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post #127 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 04:13 PM
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Isn't it entirely possible another region will have a Cinavia free lossless track we could potentially compare against? At some point a studio with rights in only select regions will release such a title, and a comparison should be possible then.

Fight mediocrity: Insist on BD50 discs for all movies longer than 100 minutes, optimized video encodes that fully utilize the available space, lossless audio track, and new masters for catalog titles!
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post #128 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by darkedgex View Post

Isn't it entirely possible another region will have a Cinavia free lossless track we could potentially compare against? At some point a studio with rights in only select regions will release such a title, and a comparison should be possible then.

I was thinking something very similar when I first heard about this new audio DRM. It would be interesting to compare lossless soundtracks from different distributors, if one has Cinavia. Unless of course it is applied to the soundtrack worldwide before distribution.


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post #129 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

I also agree with Ruined. Look at all the trouble we have with BD+, constant firmware upgrades needed to keep disc playing correctly that are slow to be released at times. Now they want to screw with the audio just for the chance to mute a pirate's audio. All the pirates have to do is rip the BD but replace the soundtrack with the audio form the DVD. Poof, high quality video and decent audio still pirated. This isn't going to do a thing to slow down pirates, it will only punish those of us who pay for our BDs.

+1

It only ever hurts the paying customer, never the pirates.

It's a strange irony that the very thing that helped Blu-ray win Fox and Disney support over HD DVD - its DRM - is the very thing that's both most hated by the paying customers and been easily defeated by the pirates! Toshiba must be still laughing at Hollywood's forever futile failed and expensive DRM attempts... saying we told you so in 2006!

First AACS, released 2006 - hacked 2006, then BD+, released in 2008 - hacked in 2008, now Cinavia released in 2010...

I can bet my bottom sheckle that Video Watermarking will be next to follow =)

2008: BD+ hacked... payback time for Warner, Fox and Disney!
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post #130 of 137 Old 10-31-2010, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DeAd MiKe 187 View Post

Ah, now I see the confusion for why you are against me mentioning the DVD audio. It's been confirmed that Cinavia is NOT on the DVD editions of the films. So, the lossy DD 448kbps on the DVD is Cinavia-free. Hence, I want to convert the Blu-ray Cinavia audio to lossy DD 448kbps. That way, you have one DD 448kbps with Cinavia, and one without. That's the only way I can imagine doing a fair comparison.

Why not obtain the Region A and Region B Blu-ray versions and compare the lossless soundtracks - that's actually the most accurate way. I think the Losers or Karate Kid have a Region B version that is free of Cinavia.

2008: BD+ hacked... payback time for Warner, Fox and Disney!
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post #131 of 137 Old 11-01-2010, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bourke View Post

+1

It only ever hurts the paying customer, never the pirates.

It's a strange irony that the very thing that helped Blu-ray win Fox and Disney support over HD DVD - its DRM - is the very thing that's both most hated by the paying customers and been easily defeated by the pirates! Toshiba must be still laughing at Hollywood's forever futile failed and expensive DRM attempts... saying we told you so in 2006!

First AACS, released 2006 - hacked 2006, then BD+, released in 2008 - hacked in 2008, now Cinavia released in 2010...

I can bet my bottom sheckle that Video Watermarking will be next to follow =)

Yeah the worst part is Cinavia directly impacts the purity and accuracy of the soundtrack. And, a little birdie told me Cinavia has been hacked already without much impact to the sound - though said hack hasn't been made into an actual user-friendly program yet as it requires new & different methods to defeat the protection. Just another case of the paying consumer getting the shaft while the studios/pirates play cat and mouse. One might argue that the audio is not hugely impacted, but with consumers paying $25/disc why should it be impacted at all?
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post #132 of 137 Old 11-01-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bourke View Post

Toshiba must be still laughing at Hollywood's forever futile failed and expensive DRM attempts... saying we told you so in 2006!

First AACS, released 2006

Um, what? Toshiba was one of the main licensors of AACS, and it was included on every HD DVD.

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post #133 of 137 Old 11-01-2010, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

Um, what? Toshiba was one of the main licensors of AACS, and it was included on every HD DVD.

This is off topic, but unlike Blu-ray AACS was not required to be on HD DVDs, it was optional.
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post #134 of 137 Old 11-02-2010, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

...with consumers paying $25/disc why should it be impacted at all?

Here in Australia they're closer to USD $50 per disc:

https://www.ezydvd.com.au/item.zml/816415

2008: BD+ hacked... payback time for Warner, Fox and Disney!
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post #135 of 137 Old 11-02-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

Um, what? Toshiba was one of the main licensors of AACS, and it was included on every HD DVD.

My point was (is) that Blu-ray Disc was marketed to studios as the bees knees of DRM... it appealed to Disney and Fox becasue it had (1) mandatory AACS, (2) Region Coding, (3) BD+, and (4) Watermarking - all advertised early on in the campaign as advantages over HD DVD.

All expensive - and ALL hacked failures.

I wish I was working for Toshiba at the time - I would have implemented invisible VIDEO watermarking as mandatory =)

Then we wouldn't have to put up with this Blu-ray DRM BS and associated lossy lossless audio - it'd be dead and buried years ago!

2008: BD+ hacked... payback time for Warner, Fox and Disney!
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post #136 of 137 Old 11-02-2010, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

This is off topic, but unlike Blu-ray AACS was not required to be on HD DVDs, it was optional.

And I'm not speaking in hypotheticals.

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post #137 of 137 Old 11-03-2010, 04:11 AM
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