Disneys 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea - Blu ray - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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It appears that the Blu-ray release of the recent 4k restoration is coming either in the 4th quarter of 2011 or by mid 2012. The new transfer is said to look magnificent. However, there are rumors that there has been some "digital enhancements" done to the film which include scrubbing visible wires during the squid fight sequence and significant digital color correction of the live action underwater sequences.

A theatrical showing of the newly restored film is happening here:

August 19-20, 2011
Linwood Dunn Theatre
Hollywood, CA
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post #2 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 12:55 PM
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Fantastic! A childhood favorite I never figured to see on Blu-ray so soon, if ever.

I'm down for the theater showing in August, too. Anyone know when/how Linwood Dunn will sell these tickets?
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post #3 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 01:32 PM
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Can't wait. Love this film.
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post #4 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 03:13 PM
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Another big fan here.
As for "fixes" that would make wires disappear, I'm all for it.
Doesn't change anything. It keeps the illusion I had as a kid all those years ago.
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post #5 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 03:17 PM
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That's good news.
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post #6 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

It appears that the Blu-ray release of the recent 4k restoration is coming either in the 4th quarter of 2011 or by mid 2012. The new transfer is said to look magnificent. However, there are rumors that there has been some "digital enhancements" done to the film which include scrubbing visible wires during the squid fight sequence...

Actually , I said dem wires were painted out and.for a reason, see -
http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-dis...ml#post4496527

and, among other more esoteric things -
http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-dis...ml#post4507580
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post #7 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Fantastic! A childhood favorite I never figured to see on Blu-ray so soon, if ever.

I'm down for the theater showing in August, too. Anyone know when/how Linwood Dunn will sell these tickets?

Yes , it is part of the program for one of the premier conferences in North America dedicated to presenting the latest technologies in audiovisual restoration and preservation. The Reel Thing' brings together a unique line-up of laboratory technicians, archivists, new media technologists and preservationists.

Keep in mind though, that there is; however, a registration fee for non-AMIA members which exceeds the ticket price for your typical theatrical showing.
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post #8 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

Yes , it is part of the program for one of the premier conferences in North America dedicated to presenting the latest technologies in audiovisual restoration and preservation. The Reel Thing' brings together a unique line-up of laboratory technicians, archivists, new media technologists and preservationists.

Keep in mind though, that there is; however, a registration fee for non-AMIA members which exceeds the ticket price for your typical theatrical showing.

Price isn't an issue, Penton. Thanks for "The Reel Thing" info for ordering tickets.
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post #9 of 59 Old 07-13-2011, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

Actually , I said dem wires were painted out and.for a reason, see -
http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-dis...ml#post4496527

and, among other more esoteric things -
http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-dis...ml#post4507580

No offense, but I didn't get the info from your posts on that board.

And while digitally removing wires due to the high-res scan, brightness issues making them overly visible isn't that big of a deal, I'm more concerned with the rumored significant color timing changes for the underwater scenes.

T.B.
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post #10 of 59 Old 07-14-2011, 02:30 AM
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I've been writing my master's thesis on digital film restoration and remastering. The study that I've done has mainly consisted of interviewing restoration experts. One of the people I got to ask questions via email was Theo Gluck, the Director of Library Restoration and Preservation at Walt Disney Studios. When asked about his stance on wire removal he referred to "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea". Basically what he told me was that there were several debates whether to remove the wires from the giant squid sequence or not. When the scene was first filmed it was staged to happen at sunset, but apparently Walt Disney was upset over how obvious the mechanics were that he ordered the sequence to be restaged and reshot to make it look like it was happening at night. This was done to further help hide the wires. So yes, the decision was to remove the wires.


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post #11 of 59 Old 07-14-2011, 06:34 AM
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Interesting that this would be their first live action classic to BD. A great movie but what about Mary Poppins, etc.
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post #12 of 59 Old 07-14-2011, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimlich View Post

...When the scene was first filmed it was staged to happen at sunset, but apparently Walt Disney was upset over how obvious the mechanics were that he ordered the sequence to be restaged and reshot to make it look like it was happening at night. This was done to further help hide the wires....

This change of plans is also discussed (by Fleischer?) in the excellent "Making of" featurette on the SE DVD.
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post #13 of 59 Old 07-14-2011, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimlich View Post

I've been writing my master's thesis on digital film restoration and remastering. The study that I've done has mainly consisted of interviewing restoration experts. One of the people I got to ask questions via email was Theo Gluck, the Director of Library Restoration and Preservation at Walt Disney Studios. When asked about his stance on wire removal he referred to "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea". Basically what he told me was that there were several debates whether to remove the wires from the giant squid sequence or not. When the scene was first filmed it was staged to happen at sunset, but apparently Walt Disney was upset over how obvious the mechanics were that he ordered the sequence to be restaged and reshot to make it look like it was happening at night. This was done to further help hide the wires. So yes, the decision was to remove the wires.

Here's the thing.....

That decision was made *during production* to re-shoot the sequence to better hide wires and make the scene more realistic. Once the film was complete, the movie was shown theatrically and decades later, released on various formats on home video *unaltered.*

Now due to the fact the technical circumstances of recent restoration *exposed* wires that were tough or impossible to see in the previous theatrical and home video releases, I think (careful) digital removal was fairly warranted in this case. But in many cases, such digital revisionism is not.

Take for instance most early Godzilla movies - even in original theatrical screenings, some wire work was always visible (so was primitive matte lines and a host of other special effects issues). Yet, Toho studios has always left the wire work exposed in all home video releases up through Blu-ray despite otherwise extensive digital "remastering" and color correction done in the past decade. There's a number of Ray Harryhausen's films already out on Blu-ray that have basically been left alone as far as mediocre looking matte lines, film grain issues, etc that *could* have been significantly cleaned up. But part of any film's charm, place in history and the ideal aim of any restoration should be to present the movie *as it was seen* in it's theatrical release. The Wizard of Oz restoration for Blu-ray is a good example - you still can see the wire moving the Lion's tail.
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post #14 of 59 Old 07-16-2011, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

But part of any film's charm, place in history and the ideal aim of any restoration should be to present the movie *as it was seen* in it's theatrical release.

+1,000,000

Once you have a restored original, it forms the basis from which any further manipulation can be done: if you bake a change into the restoration, you may be forevermore stuck with it, since restorations don't happen very often due to the effort involved. This is particularly troubling with the current predilection for trendy teal/orange tints.

I would go further and say that the ideal aim of restoration is to present a movie as close to the experience of a pristine film element and state of the art projector will allow: I have seen some quite shocking theatrical releases due to the poor state of the projectors and film prints. Perhaps what we want is as close to the director's viewing experience of the completed film as possible.
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post #15 of 59 Old 07-16-2011, 02:35 AM
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I'm all for wire removal, It can take me right out of a film when it looks goofy
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post #16 of 59 Old 07-16-2011, 04:04 AM
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Oh, I forgot to add: apparently no grain management was done on the scans of "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea".


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post #17 of 59 Old 07-16-2011, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

No offense, but I didn't get the info from your posts on that board.

And while digitally removing wires due to the high-res scan, brightness issues making them overly visible isn't that big of a deal, I'm more concerned with the rumored significant color timing changes for the underwater scenes.

T.B.

No offense taken as I obviously made a wrong assumption in thinking you were referring to my home' board. And I'm impressed with your knowledge of the topic.

As to the rumored significant color timing changes, you would really have to ask Ray over at Warner Bros. Motion Picture Imaging facility as I believe he did the actual color grading on the film for Disney .
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post #18 of 59 Old 07-16-2011, 09:36 PM
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Can someone explain why wires are more visible in a scan of a film than presumably the cinematic projection of the film itself (which would have been deemed satisfactory at the time)?

Surely a scan of the source film should be close to identical with the source (allowing for the reduced resolution): anything else and the source has been altered from the original cinematic intent. Thus wires should have the same visibility in a scan as the cinema experience, if it is faithful to the original.
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post #19 of 59 Old 07-17-2011, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

Can someone explain why wires are more visible in a scan of a film than presumably the cinematic projection of the film itself (which would have been deemed satisfactory at the time)?

Surely a scan of the source film should be close to identical with the source (allowing for the reduced resolution): anything else and the source has been altered from the original cinematic intent. Thus wires should have the same visibility in a scan as the cinema experience, if it is faithful to the original.

The scan was performed on the original camera negative or another early-generation (and, thus, highly resolved) version of the film. Whereas, a theatrical print will be the product of a number of dupe generations, each of which loses detail information, so there is a lot less resolution on the screen in the theatre than the original negative holds.

Put simply, the Blu-ray is higher resolution than the theatrical print.

I don't feel special...
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post #20 of 59 Old 07-17-2011, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

The scan was performed on the original camera negative or another early-generation (and, thus, highly resolved) version of the film. Whereas, a theatrical print will be the product of a number of dupe generations, each of which loses detail information, so there is a lot less resolution on the screen in the theatre than the original negative holds.

Put simply, the Blu-ray is higher resolution than the theatrical print.

Even more than overall detail, every generation down from the master is an optical dupe that adds grain and reduces sharpness, which would also serve to hide wires. So, even if you somehow preserved the resolution print to print, it's still grain being transferred to more grain and one layer of film stock being duped onto another by shining a light through one onto the other. It's like shooting a picture of the outdoors by photographing a picture of it taken through a window instead of going directly outside.

When you go back to the source, you're working from the first generation that no one saw in the theaters. So, your digital master is much sharper and cleaner to start with.


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post #21 of 59 Old 07-17-2011, 01:16 PM
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After what they did with Tron, I trust 'em! Can't wait!
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post #22 of 59 Old 07-17-2011, 02:14 PM
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I agree, let us see what they did with what they had.

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post #23 of 59 Old 07-18-2011, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

The scan was performed on the original camera negative or another early-generation (and, thus, highly resolved) version of the film. Whereas, a theatrical print will be the product of a number of dupe generations, each of which loses detail information, so there is a lot less resolution on the screen in the theatre than the original negative holds.

Put simply, the Blu-ray is higher resolution than the theatrical print.

Thanks for the clarification: very interesting.
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

When you go back to the source, you're working from the first generation that no one saw in the theaters. So, your digital master is much sharper and cleaner to start with.

Now that is interesting and opens a whole can of worms: do we actually want to see the first generation source or how it was supposed to appear in the cinema?

I'm assuming that the (properly calibrated) cinema experience is actually the standard for which the director is aiming and is therefore his "intent".
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post #24 of 59 Old 07-18-2011, 05:34 PM
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I'm assuming that the (properly calibrated) cinema experience is actually the standard for which the director is aiming and is therefore his "intent".

People have this auterist idea about directors. There is not always a lot of conscious thought about how things are being done. People are on schedules and have to get something shipped. If it looks OK in the dailies, it's a print.
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post #25 of 59 Old 07-18-2011, 06:15 PM
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People have this auterist idea about directors. There is not always a lot of conscious thought about how things are being done. People are on schedules and have to get something shipped. If it looks OK in the dailies, it's a print.

Yep. Many (most?) times the intent is to just get the damn thing done, not any high-minded artistic principle. There's a quote I remember reading (can't remember where) that I always found funny:

"In the morning you set out to make Gone With The Wind. By the end of the day you just hope that you got The Dukes of Hazzard"
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post #26 of 59 Old 07-18-2011, 06:53 PM
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The color timing changes mentioned above will likely drive some members F*&ing nuts.

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post #27 of 59 Old 07-18-2011, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strevlac View Post

Yep. Many (most?) times the intent is to just get the damn thing done, not any high-minded artistic principle. There's a quote I remember reading (can't remember where) that I always found funny:

"In the morning you set out to make Gone With The Wind. By the end of the day you just hope that you got The Dukes of Hazzard"

I remember an interview with director Michael Powell. The interviewer commented on the wonderful choice to film "I Know Where I Am Going" in black and white, how it accentuated the bleakness of the landscape.

Powell replied that he and his partner (Emeric Pressburger) wanted to film in Technicolor but the lab was too busy so they settled for black and white.

It is very easy to read things in years or decades after the fact that were never intended at all. This is a part of the critical process I suppose. But let's not attribute to the film-makers something that is added later.

[Without knowing what the film would have looked like in color, I think it looks great in B&W and agree with the interviewer.]
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post #28 of 59 Old 07-19-2011, 12:08 AM
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So, what do you guys think the consumer should be asking for in a Bluray title: something that looks like the first generation source (which few would have seen), or a pristine theatrical print?

Personally I would be really happy to get both released to the public, so there's a choice. I would also like players to be equipped with more powerful filters, so the consumer can tailor the presentation of each movie to their own tastes, rather than what the studios think should be the average taste, burned into the master.
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post #29 of 59 Old 07-19-2011, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The color timing changes mentioned above will likely drive some members F*&ing nuts.

Agreed. I was taken aback by the color timing changes between the old Archive Collection laserdisc and the dvd release. You could see it right away in the title sequence on the curtain backdrop. The dvd color looked like it was in torch mode in comparison to the laserdisc.
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post #30 of 59 Old 07-19-2011, 02:12 PM
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I have hated every classic animated Disney bluray I've seen. I'm sure the trend will continue with this one.
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