Experiencing audio dropouts on Star Wars? - Page 20 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Audio or video issues with Star Wars? Please select your player and receiver.
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post #571 of 663 Old 02-10-2012, 09:33 AM
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Does Return of the Jedi have any DTS bombs?

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #572 of 663 Old 02-11-2012, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Does Return of the Jedi have any DTS bombs?

Not if your AVR and/or HDP are updated ;-)

I don't recall anyone complaining about episode 6 (other than lack or reduced surround back effects) but I could be wrong.
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post #573 of 663 Old 02-12-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

Not if your AVR and/or HDP are updated ;-)

I don't recall anyone complaining about episode 6 (other than lack or reduced surround back effects) but I could be wrong.

good to know.

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post #574 of 663 Old 02-12-2012, 07:37 PM
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To any owners of the TX-NR906... According to Cedric at Onkyo, I am the ONLY caller to report the DTS HD Master bomb on this particular model. As such, they are NOT actively pursuing a resolution of this problem. If you have this particular issue, please contact and report it to Onkyo, otherwise nothing will be resolved.

To call Onkyo toll free, call 1-800-229-1687.... ignore the message and enter 2639,

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post #575 of 663 Old 02-14-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

To any owners of the TX-NR906... According to Cedric at Onkyo, I am the ONLY caller to report the DTS HD Master bomb on this particular model. As such, they are NOT actively pursuing a resolution of this problem. If you have this particular issue, please contact and report it to Onkyo, otherwise nothing will be resolved.

To call Onkyo toll free, call 1-800-229-1687.... ignore the message and enter 2639,

Called Onkyo they were unhelpful.

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Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #576 of 663 Old 02-14-2012, 02:15 PM
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Spoke to Cedric at Onkyo. He was very upset that I called him. Even more upset that his name was on the internet. He didn't offer any help to me and addressed me in a semi-threatning manner.
This is all very upsetting.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #577 of 663 Old 02-14-2012, 02:46 PM
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Hi fanboyz,

Nice name by the way. I've spoken to Cedric on my 705 and he was very helpful with me and sent me one of those DSP upgrade discs for this very same issue and now mine works very nice. I don't understand how he could be "Threatening" as you say. Maybe you should contact his boss.
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post #578 of 663 Old 02-14-2012, 04:44 PM
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When was this?

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #579 of 663 Old 02-14-2012, 06:24 PM
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Hey can the firmware for the xx09 models go on a 906?

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post #580 of 663 Old 02-14-2012, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Hey can the firmware for the xx09 models go on a 906?

Highly unlikely. And if you tried to do so, at best the 906 would probably refuse to load the firmware, because knows it's wrong for that AVR. And at the worst, if it did not reject it and it did start to load, it also would probably brick the 906.
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post #581 of 663 Old 02-15-2012, 11:52 AM
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Actually that was a few days ago that I spoke with him on my 705.
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post #582 of 663 Old 02-15-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_farrisaki View Post

Actually that was a few days ago that I spoke with him on my 705.

This is in reference to a different DTS bomb.

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Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #583 of 663 Old 02-17-2012, 01:20 AM
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I give up with Onkyo, this is the first and for sure the last product I buy from them. Now I have DTS bomb with Tree of Life on my 876 running the latest DSP.
I know this is very controversial topic but is there a difference between bitstream vs PCM I usually use Movie PLIIX. I tested many clips and I think the bitstream slightly better, but I guess my ears play tricks on me! I have Oppo 93 which is newer and continuously updated than the Onkyo so I guess I'll switch to PCM till I get a receiver from a company that respect their customers
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post #584 of 663 Old 02-18-2012, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ana_moo_ana View Post

I give up with Onkyo, this is the first and for sure the last product I buy from them. Now I have DTS bomb with Tree of Life on my 876 running the latest DSP.
I know this is very controversial topic but is there a difference between bitstream vs PCM I usually use Movie PLIIX. I tested many clips and I think the bitstream slightly better, but I guess my ears play tricks on me! I have Oppo 93 which is newer and continuously updated than the Onkyo so I guess I'll switch to PCM till I get a receiver from a company that respect their customers

In theory internal decode from the player and outputting PCM should be identical, but with my Sammy BD-UP5000 there is sometimes a volume difference between that and bitstream. Volume differences can be perceived as sounding better/worse so be careful with that. I often have to resort to PCM and internal decode for newer DDTHD moves to avoid audio dropouts especially where abrupt loud noises are in the movie. Gun shots and explosions usually cause it. Older movies are fine. I prefer to use bitstream, even-though the SQ of the internal decode is the same quality since the pretty blue light illuminates on my Denon AVR. So psychologically if there is a volume difference and a lack of an HD audio light or indicator can fool your mind into thinking that bitstream is better. Usually PCM is louder with my setup than bitstream. I know many that always use PCM and have the player decode. I can't get away with than since my player does not decode DTS-HD MA/HR which nowadays is almost everything. I pine for the days of PCM audio on BDs.
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post #585 of 663 Old 02-18-2012, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ana_moo_ana View Post

I give up with Onkyo, this is the first and for sure the last product I buy from them. Now I have DTS bomb with Tree of Life on my 876 running the latest DSP.
I know this is very controversial topic but is there a difference between bitstream vs PCM I usually use Movie PLIIX. I tested many clips and I think the bitstream slightly better, but I guess my ears play tricks on me! I have Oppo 93 which is newer and continuously updated than the Onkyo so I guess I'll switch to PCM till I get a receiver from a company that respect their customers

I forgot to menton that one of the reasons I went with Denon years ago was due to research I did. I looked into Yammy, Pioneer, Denon, H/K, and NAD and never got too serious about Onkyo and for sure not Sony. NAD and Marantz were more than I was willing to pay at the time and so was Denon until I found a leftover AVR-1909 at a local store in early '09 that was very deeply discounted when they were blowing out the old '09 models making room for the '10s. It had been unboxed, but never plugged in just sitting on a shelf. Had to be without it late '10 for a firmware update for the boomy bass Audessey issue, but that update took care of that problem and since I had waited the latest code addressed the issue discussed here so I have NEVER had an DTS bomb issues. All in all the best $275 I have ever spent on a/v gear. In retrospect I am glad I did not go with the h/k which I just about pulled the trigger on. Those back then had some perplexing problems that required many f/w updates and I did not want to deal with that. The Denon was my 1st choice since I already had a AVR-486 and it served me well. I just did not like the $650 price tag and looked at alternatives. I read early on about many issues with various Onkyo units and the low end ones I was looking at and considering early on had serious problems (overheating, f/w issues, premature failure etc.) so I stayed away from them.
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post #586 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 10:45 AM
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Finally broke down (after all of the negative reviews) and bought the Star Wars OT and watched A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. ANH had the audio dropouts in the same places as noted by others. I own the Denon 2309CI and plan to do the firmware update as soon as my new RS-232 serial/USB cable arrives.

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post #587 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ana_moo_ana View Post

I give up with Onkyo, this is the first and for sure the last product I buy from them. Now I have DTS bomb with Tree of Life on my 876 running the latest DSP.
I know this is very controversial topic but is there a difference between bitstream vs PCM I usually use Movie PLIIX. I tested many clips and I think the bitstream slightly better, but I guess my ears play tricks on me! I have Oppo 93 which is newer and continuously updated than the Onkyo so I guess I'll switch to PCM till I get a receiver from a company that respect their customers

Did you ever call this issue in to Onkyo? They said I was the ONLY person who called with this problem so they are not looking into it unless more users call in... If you call it in, ask for Cedric, he's the support person I talked to...

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post #588 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

In theory internal decode from the player and outputting PCM should be identical, but with my Sammy BD-UP5000 there is sometimes a volume difference between that and bitstream. Volume differences can be perceived as sounding better/worse so be careful with that.

Can you elaborate further please? I too noticed a loudness difference where the bitstream seems to play louder. Are you finding the same?

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post #589 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 06:25 PM
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Can you elaborate further please? I too noticed a loudness difference where the bitstream seems to play louder. Are you finding the same?

In my setup, usually, PCM is louder, but not always. As far are over all SQ they sound the same to me. I can only A/B DDTHD titles since my player does not internally decode DTS-HD formats and just decodes the DTS core. There are a number of reasons that PCM would have a different volume level than bitstream. It all depends on your player, your AVR and the combination of the two. In a perfect world they should be the same, but that has not been my experience. Note that this can also cause Audessey Dynamic EQ+volume to function differently depending on the volume difference.

Also, if your player really does not decode DTS-HD and is instead decoding core, that could cause a volume difference also.
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post #590 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 06:45 PM
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Why is it that NO player can convert Return Of The Jedi to LPCM and keep the back surround channel?

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #591 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

In my setup, usually, PCM is louder, but not always.

Hmm ok, interesting. I find that DTS HDMA as a bitstream tends to sound louder than PCM and I also do not get the "Dialnorm +4" flash on the AVR display when running the same soundtrack as PCM - ie decoding in the player.

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As far are over all SQ they sound the same to me.

If they really are "lossless", they should sound exactly the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

I can only A/B DDTHD titles since my player does not internally decode DTS-HD formats and just decodes the DTS core. There are a number of reasons that PCM would have a different volume level than bitstream. It all depends on your player, your AVR and the combination of the two. In a perfect world they should be the same, but that has not been my experience. Note that this can also cause Audessey Dynamic EQ+volume to function differently depending on the volume difference.

Also, if your player really does not decode DTS-HD and is instead decoding core, that could cause a volume difference also.

Hadn't even thought about that, so how does one tell if the player is actually decoding HDMA or just the core?

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Why is it that NO player can convert Return Of The Jedi to LPCM and keep the back surround channel?

Is it being "lost" or folded to the side surrounds? If it is being folded, and PCM is handled by your AVR the way my AVR does, than you won't be able to steer it back to where it should either. My AVR shows PCM as all 8 channels of audio even if the source is 2CH. Nothing plays from the BS speakers if the source is 5.1 discrete.

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post #592 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Hmm ok, interesting. I find that DTS HDMA as a bitstream tends to sound louder than PCM and I also do not get the "Dialnorm +4" flash on the AVR display when running the same soundtrack as PCM - ie decoding in the player.



If they really are "lossless", they should sound exactly the same.



Hadn't even thought about that, so how does one tell if the player is actually decoding HDMA or just the core?



Is it being "lost" or folded to the side surrounds? If it is being folded, and PCM is handled by your AVR the way my AVR does, than you won't be able to steer it back to where it should either. My AVR shows PCM as all 8 channels of audio even if the source is 2CH. Nothing plays from the BS speakers if the source is 5.1 discrete.

Sounds like your AVR is adding +4 when playing a bitstream? Is that controllable in the menus?

You should see all 8 channels with LPCM input, the source should silence the ones that do not have data, like you have observed.

Both methods ARE lossless and do sound the same, except for volume level.

Usually you know by the capabilities/specs of your equipment. If in doubt consult the appropriate forum here, manufactures websites, owners manuals and firmware update notes. Most folks can't tell DTS core from DTS-HD MA. DTS core is pretty dang good sounding. Some players will indicate with a status button/window what they are decoding.

I'm sure that there are players that are decoding and preserving the entire 8 channel stream. My player is reported to do that for 7.1 DDTHD, but I would not know since I only have room for a 5.1 system, which I find completely adequate for my modest needs. I think I recall someone here reporting that they got all 8 channels internal decode and outputting LPCM? I think the jury is still out on the PS3. Most folks assume that it does full HD decode, but it might only do DTS core, depending on system/firmware level specific hardware rev.?
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post #593 of 663 Old 02-19-2012, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

Sounds like your AVR is adding +4 when playing a bitstream? Is that controllable in the menus?

I don't think so. I queried THX recently about this as the AVR is THX certified. I got a reply about 3 days later. Apparently even though the average level of dialogue is supposed to be -31dBFS, a THX processor will boost it by 4dB so it is now -27dBFS. They gave no explanation as to why. They then said that if the soundtrack is encoded to anything other than the correct levels, a positive or negative DN figure would be displayed. You then must adjust the master volume by the amount shown to offset this. So if you see DN+4, you are supposed to reduce the MV by 4dB. I've not seen negative DN figures on any BD which would require you to increase the level. PCM does not seem to show this, so maybe decoding in the player resets the level back to -31dBFS. If so, then this is an encode issue.

Most of the region B stuff that has DTS HD MA shows DN+4 on the display. THX said (in regards to AVATAR) that they can not be responsible with what a studio does to a transfer after they have certified it.

Quote:


You should see all 8 channels with LPCM input, the source should silence the ones that do not have data, like you have observed.

Yeah and nothing comes out the back surrounds for 5.1 where bit-stream + THX Cinema 2 creates an awesome sound field.

Quote:


Both methods ARE lossless and do sound the same, except for volume level.

But why is there a level difference and at what stage is it being introduced?
Quote:


Usually you know by the capabilities/specs of your equipment. If in doubt consult the appropriate forum here, manufactures websites, owners manuals and firmware update notes. Most folks can't tell DTS core from DTS-HD MA. DTS core is pretty dang good sounding. Some players will indicate with a status button/window what they are decoding.

I am using bit-stream because I have no issues (not even STAR WARS). I was having drop outs with select DD TrHD titles.

Quote:


I'm sure that there are players that are decoding and preserving the entire 8 channel stream. My player is reported to do that for 7.1 DDTHD, but I would not know since I only have room for a 5.1 system, which I find completely adequate for my modest needs. I think I recall someone here reporting that they got all 8 channels internal decode and outputting LPCM? I think the jury is still out on the PS3. Most folks assume that it does full HD decode, but it might only do DTS core, depending on system/firmware level specific hardware rev.?

I only have 3 or 4 titles that are 7.1. All the rest are either 5.1 or 6.1. I do have a full 7.1 system but because I also don't have playback issues, have not gone exploring lately.

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post #594 of 663 Old 02-20-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

I don't think so. I queried THX recently about this as the AVR is THX certified. I got a reply about 3 days later. Apparently even though the average level of dialogue is supposed to be -31dBFS, a THX processor will boost it by 4dB so it is now -27dBFS. They gave no explanation as to why. They then said that if the soundtrack is encoded to anything other than the correct levels, a positive or negative DN figure would be displayed. You then must adjust the master volume by the amount shown to offset this. So if you see DN+4, you are supposed to reduce the MV by 4dB. I've not seen negative DN figures on any BD which would require you to increase the level. PCM does not seem to show this, so maybe decoding in the player resets the level back to -31dBFS. If so, then this is an encode issue.

Most of the region B stuff that has DTS HD MA shows DN+4 on the display. THX said (in regards to AVATAR) that they can not be responsible with what a studio does to a transfer after they have certified it.

Yeah and nothing comes out the back surrounds for 5.1 where bit-stream + THX Cinema 2 creates an awesome sound field.

But why is there a level difference and at what stage is it being introduced?
I am using bit-stream because I have no issues (not even STAR WARS). I was having drop outs with select DD TrHD titles.

I only have 3 or 4 titles that are 7.1. All the rest are either 5.1 or 6.1. I do have a full 7.1 system but because I also don't have playback issues, have not gone exploring lately.

Ya, there is some dialogue normalization that happens with DD and I think DDTHD, possibly DD+ soundtracks as well that I can't control on my Denon either. Sometimes when the TV stations get aggressive with -7 and lower levels dialogue can get hard to understand and drowned out by surround music.

Ya, it sucks when either a bitstream or PCM source sends out blanked out stuff rather than letting you control to 2.1 or 5.1 so you can add extra surround effects.

My guess is that the volume difference comes from poorly written code or internal settings with the player/source. Just a theory, but I would think that players would have a very less sophisticated decode and software than a modern AVR? I also prefer bitstream, but like you I have ran into issues with dropouts with recent (within the past 2 years) DDTHD soundtracks. Older titles seem fine, which leads me to believe that that there have been changes to DDTHD and DTS-HD that older players like mine (Sammy BD-UP5000 combo HD/BD) have not kept up on. Why internal decode is fine, but bitstream has dropouts I can't explain. Perhaps it really isn't decoding DDTHD, but plain DD? My player hasn't seen a firmware update since mid-2010 and is suffering from many issues and movies that don't play with the latest code, but there are workarounds for most of the issues and only a handful of movies that cannot be played at all (only one of which I own, imported a different version from the UK to fix that issue).

What player are you running? Sorry too lazy to search. My guess it is a Samsung if you were/are having issues with some select DDTHD titles (all 4 Shreks, How to Train Your Dragon, The Walking Dead season 1, and a bunch of others).

I have a crapload of 7.1 and 6.1 titles. A couple years ago I made a list and I was surprised at how many I have (esp. when you consider box sets like the 2 Star Trek movie collections).
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post #595 of 663 Old 02-20-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

Ya, there is some dialogue normalization that happens with DD and I think DDTHD, possibly DD+ soundtracks as well that I can't control on my Denon either. Sometimes when the TV stations get aggressive with -7 and lower levels dialogue can get hard to understand and drowned out by surround music.

DN should be seen on all program not encoded at the correct levels. AFAIF, the PCM tracks are a true 1:1 bit map of the studio master, so their levels should be correct all the way. Both DTS HDMA and DDTrHD are packed encodes, so even though they are lossless, something is happening during encoding and why we see DN+4 on some titles.

Quote:


Ya, it sucks when either a bitstream or PCM source sends out blanked out stuff rather than letting you control to 2.1 or 5.1 so you can add extra surround effects.

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As far as I can tell here, the player sends the channels out the same regardless. There just happens to be no info in the other channels, but as far as the AVR sees it, there might as well be. Bit of a sluggish way to do it.

My guess is that the volume difference comes from poorly written code or internal settings with the player/source. Just a theory, but I would think that players would have a very less sophisticated decode and software than a modern AVR? I also prefer bitstream, but like you I have ran into issues with dropouts with recent (within the past 2 years) DDTHD soundtracks. Older titles seem fine, which leads me to believe that that there have been changes to DDTHD and DTS-HD that older players like mine (Sammy BD-UP5000 combo HD/BD) have not kept up on. Why internal decode is fine, but bitstream has dropouts I can't explain. Perhaps it really isn't decoding DDTHD, but plain DD? My player hasn't seen a firmware update since mid-2010 and is suffering from many issues and movies that don't play with the latest code, but there are workarounds for most of the issues and only a handful of movies that cannot be played at all (only one of which I own, imported a different version from the UK to fix that issue).

I would say that who ever does the encoding is bumping the levels. because there is still many people listening to soundtracks through the tiny speakers on their TV, maybe the studios have decided that the best way to cater for all markets is to simply up the levels by a few dB. What I want to know is, does this effect the dynamic range? The loudest undistorted part of "film sound" is supposed to be 103dB. If a sound track is mixed at the correct levels, then the average level of dialogue should be around 72dB (103-31), leaving over 30dB head room for loud sounds. If they are bumping the levels up by 4dB, are we losing 4dB off that 103dB?

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What player are you running? Sorry too lazy to search. My guess it is a Samsung if you were/are having issues with some select DDTHD titles (all 4 Shreks, How to Train Your Dragon, The Walking Dead season 1, and a bunch of others).

Right now I am running a Phillips BDP3000 because it has a 21:9 mode allowing me to shift subtitles. It is a fast player but far from the standards set by players like the OPPO 93. I used to run a Samsung BDP1500 which was good for most stuff, then the dropouts started.

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I have a crapload of 7.1 and 6.1 titles. A couple years ago I made a list and I was surprised at how many I have (esp. when you consider box sets like the 2 Star Trek movie collections).

I need to go through my list and see if I actually credited the 6.1/7.1 titles. I mainly * the non Scope (2.35~2.40) stuff.

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
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post #596 of 663 Old 02-21-2012, 06:40 AM
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I posted in the Onkyo 805 thread that I received a update disk from Onkyo & I dont know what its for,all I got with the disk is how to use it,not what its suppose to fix.I didnt order it,is it for the dts bomb on Star Wars? I had the original dts bomb yrs ago on my 805 & it was fixed(the bomb was on one of the Alien vs Predator movies)Is there a fix for my Onkyo Pro 5507 pre-pro? Ive contacted both Onkyo -Onkyo pro & havnt heard anything untill I received this disk.thanks
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post #597 of 663 Old 02-21-2012, 10:32 PM
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I just got a DSP firmware CD from Onkyo. It has a CDA (wav) file only 44 bytes in size... Kind of small so I am hesitant to install on my Onkyo TX-NR906. Even more weird is the file is dated 1994.... The file length is about a minute.

The previous firmware update had the title: 08919A...08605C... 08506A... and was 875kB
This current one has the filename 12116A... 08605C... 08506A... and this was 44bytes

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #598 of 663 Old 02-22-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

I just got a DSP firmware CD from Onkyo. It has a CDA (wav) file only 44 bytes in size... Kind of small so I am hesitant to install on my Onkyo TX-NR906. Even more weird is the file is dated 1994.... The file length is about a minute.

The previous firmware update had the title: 08919A...08605C... 08506A... and was 875kB
This current one has the filename 12116A... 08605C... 08506A... and this was 44bytes

keep me in the loop on this.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #599 of 663 Old 02-23-2012, 08:48 PM
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SUCCESS!!! The latest DSP firmware disc appears to have fixed the DTS HD Master bomb issue on the Star Wars Blu-Ray disc on the Onkyo TX-NR906... Onkyo 906 owners should contact Onkyo to get the latest firmware disc.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #600 of 663 Old 02-23-2012, 10:24 PM
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How did you get the disc?

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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