Experiencing audio dropouts on Star Wars? - Page 21 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Audio or video issues with Star Wars? Please select your player and receiver.
Player: Panasonic 0 0%
Player: Pioneer 0 0%
Player: Samsung 0 0%
Player: Oppo 0 0%
Player: PS3 1 100.00%
Player: Other 0 0%
Receiver: Pioneer 0 0%
Receiver: Denon 0 0%
Receiver: Onkyo 0 0%
Receiver: Other 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1. You may not vote on this poll

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post #601 of 663 Old 02-23-2012, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

SUCCESS!!! The latest DSP firmware disc appears to have fixed the DTS HD Master bomb issue on the Star Wars Blu-Ray disc on the Onkyo TX-NR906... Onkyo 906 owners should contact Onkyo to get the latest firmware disc.

will this DSP work on 876? if yes, can you upload the file. I live overseas so it's difficult to call them and send it to me.
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post #602 of 663 Old 02-24-2012, 08:08 AM
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Yes please upload the WAV file.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #603 of 663 Old 02-24-2012, 10:36 AM
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Cedric called me and said he was sending me a disc. He emailed me a release of liability form and I got the disc a week later...

The disc is an audio CD file. When opened, it only lists a 44byte header file which points to the hidden file. Copying the file only copies the CDA header info, not the actual file. As an audio CD file, it cannot be imaged to an iso file. If you can figure out how I can send the file to you, I will...

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #604 of 663 Old 02-24-2012, 01:37 PM
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Use iTunes to copy it.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #605 of 663 Old 02-24-2012, 02:06 PM
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Onkyo said that they will not post the update online... Users must contact Onkyo for the patch since I was apparently the only one who reported this issue...

See here for more...

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #606 of 663 Old 02-25-2012, 02:56 AM
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Player: Onkyo BD-SP809
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR809
Episode(s) affected: The Phantom Menace
Player set to Bitstream or PCM: Bitstream

Additional comments: Every time at the same position in the movie, there is a dropout. If I turn off power and play it again, it sometimes works. So it's seems completely random.

Have the same issues with Gladiator BluRay
All have DTS-HD Master Audio.
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post #607 of 663 Old 02-26-2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusrapax View Post

Player: Onkyo BD-SP809
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR809
Episode(s) affected: The Phantom Menace
Player set to Bitstream or PCM: Bitstream

Additional comments: Every time at the same position in the movie, there is a dropout. If I turn off power and play it again, it sometimes works. So it's seems completely random.

Have the same issues with Gladiator BluRay
All have DTS-HD Master Audio.

Are you playing at 24fps? If not try and let me know if you still get the dropout. Or if you are already at 24fps try 60fps. A long shot but the dts-hd ma code in some players will cause dropouts playing at 60 fps in some setups.
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post #608 of 663 Old 02-28-2012, 11:30 AM
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Player: Sony BDP S360
Reciever: Denon 1910

Yes I get sound drops on A New Hope. DTS MA

Not tried the rest yet.
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post #609 of 663 Old 02-28-2012, 07:02 PM
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I applied a firmware on my 3310 which solved crackling from the surrounds in TPM, player was/is a Sony S760
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post #610 of 663 Old 03-03-2012, 02:14 PM
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Updated my 906, all is well.
* Had to re run MultiEQ XT, which is a pain.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #611 of 663 Old 03-03-2012, 03:25 PM
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For such a high-profile release, it surprises me that there isn't some kind of replacement program or something similar?
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post #612 of 663 Old 03-03-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenUK View Post

For such a high-profile release, it surprises me that there isn't some kind of replacement program or something similar?

DTS HD-Master Audio is just full of problems. You'll never have issues with LPCM or DD TrueHD, something about is just weird.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #613 of 663 Old 03-03-2012, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

DTS HD-Master Audio is just full of problems. You'll never have issues with LPCM or DD TrueHD, something about is just weird.

Yup. Missing 7.1 surround back channels on certain receivers, 'bitstream bombs', inability of certain receivers to extract a matrixed surround back channel, and now the Star Wars drop outs.

The encoding of it is just too convoluted, I think. Hopefully the positive reaction to Paramount's use of TrueHD 7.1 on Transformers 3 will convince others to go back to using what is a more efficient - but no less impressive - codec.
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post #614 of 663 Old 03-03-2012, 07:17 PM
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The problem stems from the fact that in Theatrical Presentations, Laserdiscs, and DVD; DTS was actually always better than Dolby.

So naturally everyone now thinks DTS still must be better because it's got DTS in it's name.
I should know, I was a huge DTS advocate in the DVD era, but now what DTS was known for being "the best" at is no longer relevant to Lossless movie soundtracks.

As a codec DTS HD-Master Audio is the worst at delivering an unzipped lossless file. DD TrueHD for whatever reason does't rock the boat with their encoding schemes. They based it on MLP which essentially got it's kinks hammered out with DVD-A.



I'm not "against" any codec. Both Lossless methods deliver the same quality. Just one is really unreliable and potentially damaging to equipment. For the user, efficiancy has no meaning, reliability is all that matters- and on that front DTS is now a relic of the past.

One might say it is a *dinosaur.


* as in Jurassic Park

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post #615 of 663 Old 03-03-2012, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

reliability is all that matters

Reading all the negative comments about DTS, sound dropouts and bomb, and I have to say that I have had more issues with DDTrHD soundtracks than DTS HDMA. I think AVATAR (DTS HDMA) went into a glitch once only because I kept pausing and rewinding to get decent screen grabs. I got this continuous noise out of all 7 main speakers, but it was not really loud. I stopped the disc, ejected, reloaded and all was good again. Yet with DD, I have had more sound drop outs from so many titles, I've lost count and it seems it does not matter if I reload the disc. If the disc glitches it will do so at the same place every time.

My THX Calibrator disc still won't play the trailer right through without dropouts.

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post #616 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 03:48 AM
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Dolby's hi-res/lossless codecs are not immune to problems, but in my experience the dts variants have had even more issues.

I had a Pioneer receiver a few years ago that wouldn't play a 1.5mbps DD+ bitstream without dropouts. It also couldn't play a surround-flagged DTS-HD MA 2.0 track, nor could it extract a surround-back channel from matrixed MA '6.1' audio. (The latter is still an ongoing issue with many low-to-mid range receivers.)

Fanboyz: I respectfully disagree with your "fact" that "DTS was actually always better than Dolby". To paraphrase Robert Harris, DTS was all about the sizzle. It was louder, doesn't mean it was better.
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post #617 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post


Reading all the negative comments about DTS, sound dropouts and bomb, and I have to say that I have had more issues with DDTrHD soundtracks than DTS HDMA. I think AVATAR (DTS HDMA) went into a glitch once only because I kept pausing and rewinding to get decent screen grabs. I got this continuous noise out of all 7 main speakers, but it was not really loud. I stopped the disc, ejected, reloaded and all was good again. Yet with DD, I have had more sound drop outs from so many titles, I've lost count and it seems it does not matter if I reload the disc. If the disc glitches it will do so at the same place every time.

My THX Calibrator disc still won't play the trailer right through without dropouts.

I have also had way more issues with ddthd in my setup, but only with new releases from the past couple of years. As your equipment ages things get changed with the codecs that require updates to the equipment. Something not all manufactures will keep up on years after you buy it. Fortunately I did my homework and got a denon avr which has been great and was one of the only virtually free of issues units out at the time. I have the 1909 which is I think only the 2nd year they were supporting hd audio codecs that require decoding. My Sammy combo player is even older and did get updates up until a couple years ago, but sadly for reasons unknown to myself and others on the forum for that unit has been neglected for quite some time with a handful of titles that still won't play running any released firmware. There are workarounds for most of the issues. I have to use internal player decode with some newer ddthd titles and a couple studios releases that ate dts-hd ma require playback at 24fos, but that is my normal mode. One day I will have to get the tosh a35 out of the closet for hd-DVDs and switch bd players, but I hope that day is years off. My avr was patched with the latest code when I got it flashed to address another issue which denon discovered and fixed long ago. My only mistake was not opting for the 2309 which I could update myself but it was more $ than I wanted to spend at the time and was way too much avr for me at the time also.

Regarding the comment a few posts ago about a replacement program I assume that is referring to the sw discs themselves. This really is not a disc issue but a case of AVRs and players not keeping up with changes to the formats. It's obvious that is the case since my equipment has been static for a couple years and these issues with ddthd and dts-hd am only started happening recently. My bet would be changes and updates tot the audio authoring software used my various studios etc.

Lpcm would be a better choice, but then the studios can't fill up the discs with crap we don't need much like the days they stopped putting dts on DVDs a few years ago to make room for that same or similar crap thinking that would keep folks buying more DVDs. Personally forced previews, bonus content outside of deleted and extended scenes, bd live, bonus view and other crap turns me off from buying movies and making me want to just download a mkv and enjoy the movie without all the bs.
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post #618 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

Dolby's hi-res/lossless codecs are not immune to problems, but in my experience the dts variants have had even more issues.

I had a Pioneer receiver a few years ago that wouldn't play a 1.5mbps DD+ bitstream without dropouts. It also couldn't play a surround-flagged DTS-HD MA 2.0 track, nor could it extract a surround-back channel from matrixed MA '6.1' audio. (The latter is still an ongoing issue with many low-to-mid range receivers.)

Fanboyz: I respectfully disagree with your "fact" that "DTS was actually always better than Dolby". To paraphrase Robert Harris, DTS was all about the sizzle. It was louder, doesn't mean it was better.

Not to start a fight here, but dts hands down will always blow away dd unless you get to dd+. dts is just about always a 1.5 mbps stream where dd is only above 320 on some bds. Lpcm, ddthd and dts-ma should in theory all be lossless, but the underlying original streams vary widely in their rates and quality. They are lossless to the quality of the original audio, which in some cases might be high bit rate dd or old fashioned dts.

Obviously you haven't experienced all the DVD-audio discs that were released with dts. Actually the weren't DVD-audio but DVDs with dts. To this day I can tell a vast difference in a DVD with dts compared to dd. and it has nothing to do with loudness but depth and clarity of sound, imaging fullness etc.
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post #619 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

Not to start a fight here, but dts hands down will always blow away dd unless you get to dd+. dts is just about always a 1.5 mbps stream where dd is only above 320 on some bds. Lpcm, ddthd and dts-ma should in theory all be lossless, but the underlying original streams vary widely in their rates and quality. They are lossless to the quality of the original audio, which in some cases might be high bit rate dd or old fashioned dts.

Obviously you haven't experienced all the DVD-audio discs that were released with dts. Actually the weren't DVD-audio but DVDs with dts. To this day I can tell a vast difference in a DVD with dts compared to dd. and it has nothing to do with loudness but depth and clarity of sound, imaging fullness etc.

Hang on - you think that all these lossless/uncompressed audio streams are using those prior lossy dd/dts audio tracks as the master? That's awesome.
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post #620 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

Hang on - you think that all these lossless/uncompressed audio streams are using those prior lossy dd/dts audio tracks as the master? That's awesome.

No I would hope that most if not all of the HD masters went back to the best available analog/lossless soundtrack available. But that's not really what I am trying to covey. It's part of it, but the lossless track is only as good as whatever analog/digital recording method that was used at the time, or what the best format that was preserved, intact and available. Hope that makes sense. In some cases it is possible that 1.5mbps DTS is the best that can be found/used. Back in the day that was quite good and the state of the art. This is simplistic since DTS theater sound is way more complicated than what is on a DVD.

If you read the reviews and in depth analysis of BD releases you will learn that all of them have differing levels of bitstream (including LPCM discs) and the sound quality varies widely from a technical standpoint. I doubt there are many out there that can hear/tell a difference. Just because a BD is released with a "lossless" codec does not mean that the underlying sound is in fact "lossless" or that the technology used to record the sound in the first place was "lossless" any modern analog or digital recording method should yield excellent sound. Also "lossless" does not mean that a perfect soundtrack could be found in order to create a "lossless" release for home use or re-release at the theater.

Most home movie releases on BD today should include the same SQ as released in the theater (or possibly better), but all these technologies have evolved and improved over time including playback and reproduction of previously marginal or poor quality soundtracks.
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post #621 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 04:26 PM
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Movie Soundtracks were stored as PCM.
The DD TrueHD or DTS HD-MA tracks are simply identical copies of that file.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #622 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Movie Soundtracks were stored as PCM.
The DD TrueHD or DTS HD-MA tracks are simply identical copies of that file.

Sorry, off topic and I digress. Yes, once a modern transfer is performed of a movie it is stored in PCM (presumably). In theory the "lossless" codecs recreate an exact duplicate of that after decoding. I was just pointing out that there have been various methods of storing and/or reproducing/providing the audio for movies over the many years since being invented. Various methods of PCM have been used for quite some time (clear back to early last century) but have only been used for masters of movies for a relatively short time. I don't know the history of the Star Wars audio tracks used on the original films, or the masters that were used, but logic tells me that it was not as sophisticated as digital in theater cinema is now. However you would think that what we have on the BDs is at least as good if not better quality than what we heard in the theater. For sure it has been modified and re-mixed for multi-channel surround sound not something that was very common (or in existence) at all in some theaters back in the late 70s when Ep. IV A New Hope was released.
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post #623 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 05:06 PM
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post #624 of 663 Old 03-04-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

Sorry, off topic and I digress. Yes, once a modern transfer is performed of a movie it is stored in PCM (presumably). In theory the "lossless" codecs recreate an exact duplicate of that after decoding. I was just pointing out that there have been various methods of storing and/or reproducing/providing the audio for movies over the many years since being invented. Various methods of PCM have been used for quite some time (clear back to early last century) but have only been used for masters of movies for a relatively short time. I don't know the history of the Star Wars audio tracks used on the original films, or the masters that were used, but logic tells me that it was not as sophisticated as digital in theater cinema is now. However you would think that what we have on the BDs is at least as good if not better quality than what we heard in the theater. For sure it has been modified and re-mixed for multi-channel surround sound not something that was very common (or in existence) at all in some theaters back in the late 70s when Ep. IV A New Hope was released.


Theoretically, a movie recorded with analogue magnetic sound's studio PCM mix isn't completely true to it's original source, so neither would the resulting encode of it for a disc.

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post #625 of 663 Old 03-12-2012, 11:16 AM
 
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My jump the gun adatude to fix this issue was sell my Denon and buy a Yamaha receiver. And yet a free firmware update was there 3 weeks after I bought the new reciever. Although the Yamaha is a nice unit and very much regret selling my Denon. Yes it is anal but I kinda feel "Dirty" having that Yamaha after almost 25 years of owning Denon. So I'm currently trying to sell the Yamaha on eBay so I can by a new Denon.
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post #626 of 663 Old 03-13-2012, 10:10 PM
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So I got the update CD for my Onkyo 906. Doing the update process meant that I had to redo all my settings including having to re-run MultEQ XT (I OCD really hard running Audyssey), so I did all that.

Then after all that effort, my Oppo 93 gets an update for the Return of the Jedi 6.1 issue- making the dealings with Onkyo and the subsequent CD update pointless.

So all my Star Wars issues were fixed, and I am pleased.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #627 of 663 Old 03-13-2012, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

So I got the update CD for my Onkyo 906. Doing the update process meant that I had to redo all my settings including having to re-run MultEQ XT (I OCD really hard running Audyssey), so I did all that.

Then after all that effort, my Oppo 93 gets an update for the Return of the Jedi 6.1 issue- making the dealings with Onkyo and the subsequent CD update pointless.

So all my Star Wars issues were fixed, and I am pleased.

So it was an OPPO issue and not the Onkyo? What about the Oknyo owners not using an OPPO?

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post #628 of 663 Old 03-14-2012, 01:02 PM
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Different issues on AVR and Player.

Player couldn't send out 6.1 PCM, and Receiver couldn't handle Star Wars bitstreams.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #629 of 663 Old 03-14-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Different issues on AVR and Player.

Player couldn't send out 6.1 PCM, and Receiver couldn't handle Star Wars bitstreams.

I think you will find that no player can internally decode DTS HDMA or DDTrHD and out put the 6.1 soundtrack as 6.1 PCM. I think what you will find is that the output stream is 8ch (7.1) and two of these channels will not contain any signal (ie the LBS/RBS). The 6th channel of the 6.1 soundtrack will be folded back to the LS and RS. Because all 8 (7.1) channels are discrete, there is no way to post decode process this to steer the back surround channel to the back surround speakers. This is certainly the case with the 2 players I have owned.

For the decoders in the AVR to work, they need to receive the raw data from the disc and not a decoded to PCM version.

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post #630 of 663 Old 03-14-2012, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echo-3 View Post

My jump the gun adatude to fix this issue was sell my Denon and buy a Yamaha receiver. And yet a free firmware update was there 3 weeks after I bought the new reciever. Although the Yamaha is a nice unit and very much regret selling my Denon. Yes it is anal but I kinda feel "Dirty" having that Yamaha after almost 25 years of owning Denon. So I'm currently trying to sell the Yamaha on eBay so I can by a new Denon.

What Denon did you have? AFsIK Denon issued fixes for all of their AVRs before Starwars even released (was detected on older titles and just happened to fix SW as well). I recall it being late '10 or early '11 for that and SW did not release to BD until Sep. or Oct.? Possibly you did not know about the fix or you were one of the lucky people that spent a little extra for a network or serial upgradable unit that just happened not to get a fix?
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