Experiencing audio dropouts on Star Wars? - Page 9 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Audio or video issues with Star Wars? Please select your player and receiver.
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post #241 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boylan13 View Post

Denon said it was first spotted in "The Golden Compass" (also DTS-HD MA 6.1). There are fewer than 50 titles that use DTS-HD MA 6.1 (out of 4500+ Blu-rays in existence), and few are anywhere near as popular as "Star Wars" (although LOTR would certainly give it a run for its money) Also, keep in mind that even some of the "Star Wars" discs are not producing these drop-outs. So there must be something specific in the stream that causes the issue.

-CB

FYI - this report is erroneous on a couple fronts. First The Golden Compass is not 6.1 it is DTS-HD MA 7.1. I just checked my copy after checking the various databases. Also there are precisely only 14 "releases" that use 6.1 DTS-HD MA. Eleven are listed on the Blu-ray database and two of those are both X-Men Last Stand releases and two are the LotR releases. Add to that the 3 recent SW releases which are not reporting audio format at this point. There may be some more that I am not aware of that are also DTS-HD MA 6.1 but don't have their soundtrack codec listed there? But I doubt that would be very many. So that only makes around 21 distinct movies and versions that use this odd ball surround set-up. There are only 40 entries for 6.1 overall and most of those are plain DTS, PCM or DDTHD.

So that leaves plenty room for errors or off software to mess things up. Given that only a very few of those movies listed are wildly popular, not surprising that existing issues with those have not been a big deal. I find it odd that the two biggest releases so far have been 6.1 (SW and LotR).

Back in the day I had dropout issues with Lord or War and wondered if it was my player. I assumed it was because when I got around to purchasing that move (had rented it before) the problems were gone, but a couple updates had come out by then. It is just plain DTS 6.1 for it's audio.
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post #242 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post

FYI - this report is erroneous on a couple fronts. First The Golden Compass is not 6.1 it is DTS-HD MA 7.1. I just checked my copy after checking the various databases. Also there are precisely only 14 "releases" that use 6.1 DTS-HD MA. Eleven are listed on the Blu-ray database and two of those are both X-Men Last Stand releases and two are the LotR releases. Add to that the 3 recent SW releases which are not reporting audio format at this point. There may be some more that I am not aware of that are also DTS-HD MA 6.1 but don't have their soundtrack codec listed there? But I doubt that would be very many. So that only makes around 21 distinct movies and versions that use this odd ball surround set-up. There are only 40 entries for 6.1 overall and most of those are plain DTS, PCM or DDTHD.

So that leaves plenty room for errors or off software to mess things up. Given that only a very few of those movies listed are wildly popular, not surprising that existing issues with those have not been a big deal. I find it odd that the two biggest releases so far have been 6.1 (SW and LotR).

Back in the day I had dropout issues with Lord or War and wondered if it was my player. I assumed it was because when I got around to purchasing that move (had rented it before) the problems were gone, but a couple updates had come out by then. It is just plain DTS 6.1 for it's audio.

This is Golden Compass all over again. The folks primarily effected with Golden Compass were Denon and Onkyo owners. Just like now. Also, it was a DTS MA soundtrack with the same 'bomb' returning. Moreover, like Star Wars, you had to bitstream to have the bomb occur with Golden Compass.

Yes a few others experienced it but mostly Onkyo and Denon owners with Golden Compass. .

Curious to know if owners of 09 and later Onkyo and Denon owners are experiencing this or if it with those same '08 and earlier receivers.

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post #243 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post


Ah, yes, that could be an issue? You haven't mentioned if you have tried to swap your set for another or are you saying that IV and II may be flawed in all sets? Also you haven't mentioned if your DSP is at least 36.61 which resolves these issues. Also what type of PS3 do you run? From reading here and other places it sounds like the old fat PS3 regardless of firmware is problematic and that the newer slim ones with the latest seem to be more reliable with these discs? Or is it the other way around? I don't run a PS3 so I am unaware (other than what I have read) about what the issues are.

Still does not make sense since others have reported issues with IV on 3808s and then updated and the problem has gone away.

It is possible to have defective DSP hardware (has happened a few times with select Onkyo and other brands) that can't be corrected by firmware (or require a special firmware for a particular production run).

Yes you are right all six of these are "encoded" the same way, but that does not mean that they were all "mastered" the same way. It is probably safe to assume that IV was the 1st to be mastered and possibly II next? Maybe mastering software was updated part way through. A recent development with the Sammy player I run is audio dropouts with DTS-HD MA with some studios (Universal and Paramount) when using 60 fps rather than 24 fps and also dropouts with recent DDTHD titles. These issues "suddenly" cropped up within the last year and don't affect older titles leading me to believe that new mastering software is in use by those studios (note that the DDTHD issues are only cropping up on one or two studios as well). Fortunately these issues are resolved my playing either at 24pfs in the case of DTS or having the player decode (PCM) for DDTHD (no DTS-HD MA decode internal to my player, just lossy core DTS). So this SW audio dropout issue is not unique and has happened to at least one player out there with other titles and studios. I had assumed that these issues could be solved at the player level, but they might be AVR related or a combo of the two.

I have not tried to swap sets mainly because I've only had the one issue and halfway expect it to not be there when I view the movie again. Again, I'm only talking about Ep IV. No other disc has given me issue. This further causes me questions but to your point, perhaps the different masterings make the difference. I do not know what my DSP version is but my PS3 is the slim. I'm not necessarily saying the same discs in each set are flawed. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Also, I have the complete saga so maybe thats the difference. I don't know if the problems reported are based on individual PT/OT sets or the complete saga. I just know no other BD I own or have viewed has ever done this. Maybe Lucas issued Order 66 and the discs are sabotaging our systems!
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post #244 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Closet Geek View Post

I have not tried to swap sets mainly because I've only had the one issue and halfway expect it to not be there when I view the movie again. Again, I'm only talking about Ep IV. No other disc has given me issue. This further causes me questions but to your point, perhaps the different masterings make the difference. I do not know what my DSP version is but my PS3 is the slim. I'm not necessarily saying the same discs in each set are flawed. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Also, I have the complete saga so maybe thats the difference. I don't know if the problems reported are based on individual PT/OT sets or the complete saga. I just know no other BD I own or have viewed has ever done this. Maybe Lucas issued Order 66 and the discs are sabotaging our systems!

You really should check your firmware. To do that you turn off your AVR completely with the little on/off button (not the big standby button) then you turn it back on with the little power button while holding down the right most two buttons under the display (on the 1909 it is DYN VOL and video select. not sure what it is on the 3808). Then when you turn it on fully the status button will cycle the firmware info on the display starting with MAIN. I assume this is the same procedure for the 3808, but might be different since it is field ethernet upgradable and might report that info in the system/audio setup menu? If JDSmoothie is lurking out there he can verify this procedure.

I bet if you check you are not on 36.61 for your DSP1 and if you re-watch IV at the beginning of chapter 16 (rw back a few seconds so you go through the chapter break and see the entire screen wipe transition and angle changes with the ship and Death Star) that you will get some dropouts along with dropouts with the THX logo trailer at the end of the films. I think you might have mentioned that you did have issues with those, but might have been someone else? I've read so much about this in the past few days that I don't know if I am coming or going.

I think a couple other 3808 owners have reported issues with just IV and not with the others and many of those have flashed and don't have the problem anymore.
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post #245 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

This is Golden Compass all over again. The folks primarily effected with Golden Compass were Denon and Onkyo owners. Just like now. Also, it was a DTS MA soundtrack with the same 'bomb' returning. Moreover, like Star Wars, you had to bitstream to have the bomb occur with Golden Compass.

Yes a few others experienced it but mostly Onkyo and Denon owners with Golden Compass. .

Curious to know if owners of 09 and later Onkyo and Denon owners are experiencing this or if it with those same '08 and earlier receivers.

Sounds like it and those that did not purchase or view GC at the time were unaware until now with SW.

I was not aware until recently that there were any issues with GC and I've owned it ever since about the time it came out. I haven't had any "bombs" thank heaven with any discs and even opened up The Fly last year when I was made aware of the problem existing in the Denon AVRs. I don't think the 1909 was ever affected since I have only had new DSP code for a little less than a year and have not viewed GC in quite some time. Odd that i did not pick up on that title when I was searching for discs to test with.
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post #246 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

This is Golden Compass all over again. The folks primarily effected with Golden Compass were Denon and Onkyo owners. Just like now. Also, it was a DTS MA soundtrack with the same 'bomb' returning. Moreover, like Star Wars, you had to bitstream to have the bomb occur with Golden Compass.

Yes a few others experienced it but mostly Onkyo and Denon owners with Golden Compass. .

Curious to know if owners of 09 and later Onkyo and Denon owners are experiencing this or if it with those same '08 and earlier receivers.

BTW - I was not saying that Golden Compass was not a problem, just that it was/is not 6.1 which has been a hypothesis as to where the problem lies. Apparently for most affected AVRs the fix for that seems to be a fix for now.

BTW - it must have not been just the '08s but also the '09s at least with Denon that were affected since the 1909 got a bump from 45.43 to 45.45 sometime between February '10 and November of '10. Before that Denon was flashing 45.43 and after that the new code showed up and the only issue I know of was this DTS-MS audio drop/DTS "bomb" just assuming that Denon put a fix in for all their AVRs since it was such a big issue at the time?
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post #247 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.kludge View Post


You really should check your firmware. To do that you turn off your AVR completely with the little on/off button (not the big standby button) then you turn it back on with the little power button while holding down the right most two buttons under the display (on the 1909 it is DYN VOL and video select. not sure what it is on the 3808). Then when you turn it on fully the status button will cycle the firmware info on the display starting with MAIN. I assume this is the same procedure for the 3808, but might be different since it is field ethernet upgradable and might report that info in the system/audio setup menu? If JDSmoothie is lurking out there he can verify this procedure.

I bet if you check you are not on 36.61 for your DSP1 and if you re-watch IV at the beginning of chapter 16 (rw back a few seconds so you go through the chapter break and see the entire screen wipe transition and angle changes with the ship and Death Star) that you will get some dropouts along with dropouts with the THX logo trailer at the end of the films. I think you might have mentioned that you did have issues with those, but might have been someone else? I've read so much about this in the past few days that I don't know if I am coming or going.

I think a couple other 3808 owners have reported issues with just IV and not with the others and many of those have flashed and don't have the problem anymore.

Yes, I know how to check it I just haven't had the chance. Perhaps tonight. And that is where I had my dropout on ANH. And the THX logos on all three OT's. When I do check I'll report back. There's just something not adding up to all of this I just can't put my finger on it.
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post #248 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerryex View Post

You should also contact Onkyo as the resolution to the original DTS bomb was a firmware update in the AVRs (including Onkyo) and not the palyers. Here is the contact info:

1-800-229-1687... ext 2639. Ignore the message to call support at the toll number. 2639 will transfer the call to support.

Gerry

Thanks for the info. I'll give them a call.
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post #249 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 07:20 PM
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panasonic dmpbd210 to sony str-da5400es. switched to LPCM on the player and dropouts went away. I also noted a loss of audio quality. ambience, size, and detail got lost. dont know how this is possible. any ideas?

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post #250 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 08:42 PM
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Just stumbled upon this thread - wow. I swear we just can never have a major catalog release like this or LOTR without it being botched.

I've been too busy to try any discs yet so I guess I'm lucky I saw this first. I have a patched Onkyo 605 from the last issues and an Oppo 83. Going to try and watch TPM tomorrow and go from there.

One thing I did want to mention for those trying to reproduce the "bomb" problem - use headphones. Don't wear them though. Back when my 605 wasn't patched yet, I popped in the Fly disc and went to the problem spot. I had a cheap pair of headphones plugged into the receiver and could easily hear the pop through them without wearing them.
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post #251 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 09:42 PM
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I'm also having many audio dropouts with episode IV. I was able to watch episode V with no issues of audio until I got to the THX scene at the end of the credits. These were the only 2 episodes I have seen so far. All the dropouts occur when the player bitstreams to the amp. It happened with both a Sony s550 and my PS3 slim. My amp is the Sony 5300es. All audio issues go away when both the s550 and the PS3 are set to PCM.


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post #252 of 663 Old 09-25-2011, 11:11 PM
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Was having video issues with PowerDVD9, so I upgraded to PowerDVD11 and that was solved; however, I got crackling audio in very loud scenes. I run a 2.0 stereo and force down-sample to 44.1KHz PCM and output to SPDIF to an outboard DAC. The crackle must be hapening in the downsample.
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post #253 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amp74 View Post

panasonic dmpbd210 to sony str-da5400es. switched to LPCM on the player and dropouts went away. I also noted a loss of audio quality. ambience, size, and detail got lost. dont know how this is possible. any ideas?

Not sure about other players, but with the Oppo 93 I understand that if you turn Secondary Audio ON, whilst using LPCM out via HDMI, it only decodes the core of the primary soundtrack: if you turn Secondary Audio OFF, then it is supposed to decode the full soundtrack to LPCM.

My guess is that many players probably do this, so check to see if you have Secondary Audio turned ON in setup: it's used for those PIP video commentaries and similar advanced features in titles.
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post #254 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 06:51 AM
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Are you guys talking about the same dts bomb that Onkyo had 3 yrs ago?I thought it was fixed,I had the bomb only once till I did a firmware upgrade & never had it again.I got the blu-ray 1-6 Star Wars havnt played it yet,is the disk at fault?I have a Onkyo 805 in living room & Onkyo Pro pre-pro5507 in my HT with Pioneer 51 blu-ray in each system,now Im afraid to play the disk because when the dts bomb happen I thought it blew all my spks,also I use HDMI conn.only on both systems.thanks
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post #255 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dholmes54 View Post

Are you guys talking about the same dts bomb that Onkyo had 3 yrs ago?I thought it was fixed,I had the bomb only once till I did a firmware upgrade & never had it again.I got the blu-ray 1-6 Star Wars havnt played it yet,is the disk at fault?I have a Onkyo 805 in living room & Onkyo Pro pre-pro5507 in my HT with Pioneer 51 blu-ray in each system,now Im afraid to play the disk because when the dts bomb happen I thought it blew all my spks,also I use HDMI conn.only on both systems.thanks

Lower your volume until the sound is barely audible. Playback Star Wars IV and skip to chapter 16. You should hear a loud pop (but not loud enough to damage your speakers). It will sound like a small firecracker. I had my 906 with upgraded DSP firmware and it still has the DTS bomb.... Test with the 805 as well and let us know... It will confirm that the DSP upgrade was not preventing the bomb.

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post #256 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Silo5 View Post

Victim of DTS Bomb during A New Hope, chapter-skipping to Chapter 16.

Oppo BDP-93 bit streaming to Onkyo TX-SR805.

I have emailed Oppo about said issue and I'm getting ready to send one to Onkyo as well. Hopefully, there will be a resolution other than letting the player decode instead of bit streaming.

Why the aversion to the player doing the decoding? I do not believe I have ever seen a post from anyone who got the DTS Bomb while the BD player was decoding, for any movie. It appears that the DTS Bomb only manifests itself while bitstreaming!? Why would that be? How can it be that the decoder only needs new firmware updates on the AVR, and never on the BD player, to resolve the DTS Bomb issue?

It's my suspicion that there is more to do (electronically) when bitstreaming is being used. There is something peculiar to bitstreaming that causes this issue. Perhaps something to do with the communication between the two components. Perhaps there's extra protocol/management added for the bitstreaming. I don't know. I used to think that the bitstreaming architecture was simpler. The BD player just sends the audio stream off to the AVR for decoding. Now I don't think so anymore. I think the simpler arrangment is to have the BD player do the work and send LPCM to the AVR. Simpler means less chance for issues. And if the sound quality is the same (bitstreaming vs. LPCM), then the method that produces the least amount of technical issues wins.
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post #257 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 09:28 AM
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Thanks Jon S,I made a mistake,I only received epi 1,2,3 as a b-day present,thought they got me the whole set.Is there a issue with the first 3 movies?
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post #258 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dholmes54 View Post

Thanks Jon S,I made a mistake,I only received epi 1,2,3 as a b-day present,thought they got me the whole set.Is there a issue with the first 3 movies?

Yes... but I did not remember where the problem area was... try skipping chapters in I and II. Make sure you set your volume to barely audible so the DTS bomb does not damage anything. The bomb will be about 30-40 dB above your normal volume....

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post #259 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan P. View Post

Why the aversion to the player doing the decoding? I do not believe I have ever seen a post from anyone who got the DTS Bomb while the BD player was decoding, for any movie. It appears that the DTS Bomb only manifests itself while bitstreaming!? Why would that be? How can it be that the decoder only needs new firmware updates on the AVR, and never on the BD player, to resolve the DTS Bomb issue?

It's my suspicion that there is more to do (electronically) when bitstreaming is being used. There is something peculiar to bitstreaming that causes this issue. Perhaps something to do with the communication between the two components. Perhaps there's extra protocol/management added for the bitstreaming. I don't know. I used to think that the bitstreaming architecture was simpler. The BD player just sends the audio stream off to the AVR for decoding. Now I don't think so anymore. I think the simpler arrangment is to have the BD player do the work and send LPCM to the AVR. Simpler means less chance for issues. And if the sound quality is the same (bitstreaming vs. LPCM), then the method that produces the least amount of technical issues wins.

The problem was a known issue with the Texas Instruments Aureal (not sure if this the right name) DTS decoder DSP. The DSP had faulty programming which caused the problem. Apparently, there is still a decoding issue with the chip which is causing the issue. Only manufacturers (Pioneer, Denon and Onkyo) who installed this DSP in the AVRs had encountered this problem... This DSP was not known to be installed in players.

Players are not excluded from problems with decoding issues. There may have been some minor issues with some players but the DTS bomb issue is the most exposed issue since it can damage your amp and speakers due to the really loud volume of the bomb. AVRs can be updated easily but many players cannot other than their firmware.

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post #260 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

The problem was a known issue with the Texas Instruments Aureal (not sure if this the right name) DTS decoder DSP. The DSP had faulty programming which caused the problem. Apparently, there is still a decoding issue with the chip which is causing the issue. Only manufacturers (Pioneer, Denon and Onkyo) who installed this DSP in the AVRs had encountered this problem...

It seems to be a similar issue but not exactly the same one. The original "bitstream bomb" was due to a bug in the decoding software of the TI "Aureus" DSP, which affected Yamaha AVRs (and some others) but not Denons (Denon uses Analog Devices SHARC DSPs).

Yamaha AVRs are not having issues with the Star Wars discs (mine is OK with firmware over two years old, although it does have the original bitstream bomb fix). So this would appear to be a similar but different bug, affecting a different decoder implementation.
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post #261 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NovaKane View Post

And you seem to be right, Mark. I updated my unit and all is well upon viewing the previously problematic spots in Star Wars IV: A New Hope. No audio dropouts experienced running the 6.1 DTSHD MA track.

Will run the movie all the way through at some point in the future to confirm that there are no other issues, but, since you had no problems, I'm pretty sure we've got this problem licked for our receivers.

So, for anyone with a Denon 3808ci who is having a problem with audio dropouts with the Star Wars Blu-rays, make sure to check your DSP1 version, as it should be 36.61 (released in April of 2010). This should rectify the situation. Thank you, Rhythmx for guiding me to this!!!

P.S. To check what firmware version you're running, refer to page one of the Denon 3808ci firmware tracking thread in the receiver section on AVS.

I have the 3808 and I'm trying to find out where, exactly, during the playback of IV or V are there audio issues?

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post #262 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

The problem was a known issue with the Texas Instruments Aureal (not sure if this the right name) DTS decoder DSP. The DSP had faulty programming which caused the problem. Apparently, there is still a decoding issue with the chip which is causing the issue. Only manufacturers (Pioneer, Denon and Onkyo) who installed this DSP in the AVRs had encountered this problem...

Pioneer?

I guess I'd better do the Ep. IV, skip to chapter 16 test on my TXH-94. I've never heard the DTS Bomb on this receiver, but I sure wouldn't want that kind of surprise.

See ya. Dave

"High Fidelity audio has been like a dog chasing his tail. High Fidelity in my marriage has been much more rewarding cause she knows where I sleep."
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post #263 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 01:00 PM
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Just sent my 2808ci in to Panurgy. It looks like a 2 week turnaround...

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post #264 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 01:04 PM
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ZERO problems on the old HT-BD2T Samsung.
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post #265 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 01:39 PM
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Are most of us going to have to ship are pre-pro or avr to a manufactor for this?Im thinking about just returning Star Wars because this is more aggravating than its worth.What i dont understand is the first bomb was fixed & Ive watched several dts movies without a problem recently Thor which is in dts 7.1,I cant bring myself to risk another bomb because the 1st was bad & the volume was low when it happen.This hobby is supose to be fun!!thanks everyone
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post #266 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Onkyo or Denon player?

Neither. I used PowerDVD 9, 10, and 11, as well as Total Media Theater 5, and all experienced some sort of issue. And I experienced the bomb on PDVD 10. All players were set to PCM too.
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post #267 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

I have the 3808 and I'm trying to find out where, exactly, during the playback of IV or V are there audio issues?

In episode IV: Chapter 16, when the the Imperial cruiser approaches the Death Star, the audio dropout was repeatable for me. Also, at the very end of the credits, during the display of the THX Logo (oh, the irony! ), also repeatable, at least before I updated my 3808's DSP firmware to 36.61.

Had numerous other dropouts throughout, but these were the most blatant and memorable offenders on this title (the only one I've watched so far).

Don't know about any issues with episode V.
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post #268 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 02:53 PM
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OPPO BDP-83SE - No Problems

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post #269 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 02:59 PM
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post #270 of 663 Old 09-26-2011, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
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I am having zero problems with a Yamaha RX-V4600 and Sony PS3.

I guess that's expected since it doesn't support DTS-HD decoding. Also no problem with a Yamaha RX-V1800 decoding the bitstream.
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