Transformers: Dark of the Moon comparison *PIX* and *VID* - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 08:07 AM
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the second half of the 3d bluray definitely feels darker. it doesn't manifest itself as black crush (black detail seems to stay solid) - but the whites seem dim.
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post #62 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oleus View Post

the second half of the 3d bluray definitely feels darker. it doesn't manifest itself as black crush (black detail seems to stay solid) - but the whites seem dim.

Do you know at what point exactly does it switch from being light to dark?
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post #63 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX View Post

Do you know at what point exactly does it switch from being light to dark?

i remember first noticing it during the first scene with that transformer with hair/mane. looks like a filter was put on the lens and stays there
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post #64 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 06:43 PM
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Yeh well I guess this means Michael Bay's comments about the blu-ray being 'perfect' are FUD. It isn't even consistent throughout! As bad as the FOTR EE Blu-ray was in some ways, at least it was consistent...

It's just OUR setups that make it look bad hey? Ha, whatever....

Paramount should be setting up an exchange program now!
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post #65 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 07:04 PM
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Hmmm ... Other 3D BluRays for the most part are identical to their 2D Blu counterparts, but TF3 in 3-D has lowered white levels?

If Bay is choosing a given 3-D display as his source of reference instead of trying to be 3-D display agnostic, then yes - he's going to have some problems with his final product.
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post #66 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oleus View Post

i remember first noticing it during the first scene with that transformer with hair/mane. looks like a filter was put on the lens and stays there

Do you guys know the time stamp for when the brightness first changes?

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post #67 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 07:46 PM
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Thanks for posting your thoughts, oleus.

Here are a few more comparison screencaps.

End credits. There is ringing on the edges of the 3D version's text that reaches deep into blacker-than-black.


Lens flares, from early in the movie and from later.







This is hardly my first 2D vs 3D comparison, by the way:
The Nightmare Before Christmas - brightness is mostly identical
The Lion King - brightness is identical
Disney's A Christmas Carol - brightness is identical
Despicable Me - brightness and saturation are increased
Coraline - brightness is identical
Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs - brightness and saturation are increased
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post #68 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Do you guys know the time stamp for when the brightness first changes?

I gave it in my original post (42:08). It's kind of tough to tell the difference there though. It drops further at 45:18, when the office scene ends.
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post #69 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

I gave it in my original post (42:08). It's kind of tough to tell the difference there though. It drops further at 45:18, when the office scene ends.

Thanks. Bummer about the brightness issue.

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post #70 of 120 Old 02-06-2012, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks. Bummer about the brightness issue.

I'm betting that what we see up until the 42 minute mark in the movie is what Bay assumes is on the whole disc since that is probably what he viewed and approved before the disc was made. Whoever did the final disc mastering though made a boo-boo.

I also think another reason a lot of people aren't noticing this when watching is because they are so engrossed in the 3D that they aren't paying attention to the more basic elements of the transfer, that would be very easy to spot if it was 2D. People probably have come to expect lower brightness when watching 3D these days anyway, but that should only be the fault of the equipment or 3D technology used, not the transfer itself!

It is still rather childish of Bay to pretty much attack anyone who says there may be anything wrong with the disc.....

EDIT: Whoops, I meant attack anyone's equipment
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post #71 of 120 Old 02-07-2012, 01:05 PM
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when i was looking out for the drop in brightness i was initially looking out for black crush. but when it "switches" and it showed itself to be in fact something completely different (blacks hold up fine, whites are diminished), i was shocked.

the fact that the black level remains solid surprised me, but the drop in white levels was immediately obvious on my calibrated setup. and it was around the 40ish minute mark...i will get the exact timecode of the scene i started noticing it in tonight and post it.
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post #72 of 120 Old 02-07-2012, 01:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oleus View Post

when i was looking out for the drop in brightness i was initially looking out for black crush. but when it "switches" and it showed itself to be in fact something completely different (blacks hold up fine, whites are diminished), i was shocked.

the fact that the black level remains solid surprised me, but the drop in white levels was immediately obvious on my calibrated setup. and it was around the 40ish minute mark...i will get the exact timecode of the scene i started noticing it in tonight and post it.

Got my UK version today, I see the 2d disc is the exact same barebones disc of the first release
Was hoping for a commentary track.
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post #73 of 120 Old 02-07-2012, 05:55 PM
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i'm beginning to wonder if the whites aren't pumped up too much in the first 40 minutes.
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post #74 of 120 Old 02-08-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX View Post

I'm betting that what we see up until the 42 minute mark in the movie is what Bay assumes is on the whole disc since that is probably what he viewed and approved before the disc was made. Whoever did the final disc mastering though made a boo-boo.

I also think another reason a lot of people aren't noticing this when watching is because they are so engrossed in the 3D that they aren't paying attention to the more basic elements of the transfer, that would be very easy to spot if it was 2D. People probably have come to expect lower brightness when watching 3D these days anyway, but that should only be the fault of the equipment or 3D technology used, not the transfer itself!

It is still rather childish of Bay to pretty much attack anyone who says there may be anything wrong with the disc.....

EDIT: Whoops, I meant attack anyone's equipment

I think you are right. I watched this last night and sure enough, somewhere between 40-50 minutes the brightness takes a dive Up to that point it looked great/normal for what I typically see for 3d on my screen. I even opened up my iris on my RS45 at around the 50 minute mark to help compensate, but it still did not fully do the trick. What a shame. Any chance for a recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleus View Post

i'm beginning to wonder if the whites aren't pumped up too much in the first 40 minutes.

I dont think so. The first ~40 minutes looked "right" to my eyes compared to what I typically see from a brightness standpoint. After the first 40 minutes or so, things turn noticeably more dull.

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post #75 of 120 Old 02-08-2012, 04:01 PM
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Yeh funny how pretty much ALL the reviewers have seemed to miss this - makes you wonder how hard they are actually looking for problems...

If they can't even notice it, then what does that say about our chances for a recall
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post #76 of 120 Old 02-08-2012, 04:34 PM
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I found some screenshots of Sky's side-by-side broadcast: it has the same apparent issues.



So, there's that.
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post #77 of 120 Old 02-08-2012, 04:45 PM
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I can't say that I noticed anything too strange about the brightness overall and I even watched it after reading this thread. Overall, the PQ was excellent.

I did notice that some scenes took take place in the late afternoon that were darker overall (such as when they were preparing for the shuttle launch with the sun low on the horizon) but that made sense given the time of day.

In the later chapters there was still plenty of punch to the whites and lights, though the scenes were generally dominated by shadows since everything seemed to take place between buildings with scenes dominated by a ton of grey robots. On my plasma, it all looked great and I noticed no clipping of the whites. Of course, this is subjective since eye was only using my eyes and I didn't do an A/B comparison between the 3D and 2D version, however... although frankly, an A/B comparison is tough since my TV amps up the settings in 3D mode.

This was on my Samsung PN63C8000 using Samsung active OEM 3D glasses.

By the way, why did Michael Bay have to decide to make every single Decepticon totally gray? It's a total mess in that regard since it felt like Han and Luke were shooting at random stormtroopers. In the cartoon (and animated movie), I always knew who was fighting whom and I actually cared! Great visuals and AQ overall, but definitely lacking in story and characters. I won't spoil anything either, but damn... Optimus sure seemed angry and vengeful. Not quite the way I'd always thought of Optimus.
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post #78 of 120 Old 02-08-2012, 06:02 PM
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Just curious -- there are about 40 screenshots on blu-ray.com within review of the 3D version... does anyone know if these are shots from the 2D version, or if they are the left-eye shots from the 3D.

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post #79 of 120 Old 02-08-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad View Post

Just curious -- there are about 40 screenshots on blu-ray.com within review of the 3D version... does anyone know if these are shots from the 2D version, or if they are the left-eye shots from the 3D.

They are all from the 2D version as per usual. If you notice the shot of Carly and Sam hiding behind cover it is the same as the 2D shot posted last page here of the 2D version. It is not the darkened shot from the 3D version.
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post #80 of 120 Old 02-08-2012, 08:17 PM
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Yeah, before getting it I asked that question on their forum and someone said the reviewer used shots of the 2D disc. I don't think their hardware capture setup allows them to set the player to 3D mode.
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post #81 of 120 Old 02-09-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX View Post

I'm betting that what we see up until the 42 minute mark in the movie is what Bay assumes is on the whole disc since that is probably what he viewed and approved before the disc was made. Whoever did the final disc mastering though made a boo-boo.

I also think another reason a lot of people aren't noticing this when watching is because they are so engrossed in the 3D that they aren't paying attention to the more basic elements of the transfer, that would be very easy to spot if it was 2D. People probably have come to expect lower brightness when watching 3D these days anyway, but that should only be the fault of the equipment or 3D technology used, not the transfer itself!

It is still rather childish of Bay to pretty much attack anyone who says there may be anything wrong with the disc.....

EDIT: Whoops, I meant attack anyone's equipment

I think this is what happened with me. The first night I watched the movie (also first time I've seen it) I thought the 3D was excellent, especially during the last hour.

Then a couple of nights later I was popping in some new movies I got to check out the PQ (which I always do) and then I popped in Transformers again because I wanted to relive the awesome 3D and jumped right to the Chicago section. I couldn't believe how dark it looked, exactly like the screenshots.

In the intervening time since I first watched it I had upgraded my version of PowerDVD so I thought maybe that had caused the movie to look messed up. Clearly it's the transfer but it's amazing I totally didn't notice when I first watched it.
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post #82 of 120 Old 02-09-2012, 02:21 PM
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same here. it definitely gets darker, but since it's the whites that get lowered (and not the blacks) it's harder to notice especially in 3d.

if you put another disc in, and switch back to Transformers it's immediately obvious that it's too dark after the 40ish minute mark.
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post #83 of 120 Old 02-11-2012, 08:46 AM
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Will Paramount & Michael Bay rectify this issue and offer free replacements?

Blu-ray : 340
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post #84 of 120 Old 02-11-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Will Paramount & Michael Bay rectify this issue and offer free replacements?

judging by Bay's previously quoted comments about how he mastered the 3d version, i highly doubt anything will happen unless he sees something like the brightness graph that clearly shows the dip after the 40ish minute mark.

going to the exact timecode noted by another user earlier in the thread, i swear in the shot before it (where you see shia lebouf's face as he's sitting down in the office), you can see the brightness being dialed down during the actual shot!

all that being said, i looked at Pirates 3 and it looks about as dark as Transformers does on my setup, from beginning to end (even in daytime shots).
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post #85 of 120 Old 02-11-2012, 03:51 PM
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So, I just watched the 3D version (UK platter) and I'm still reeling, 'cause it was awesome. Whether the brightness thing y'all have uncovered is intentional or not, I can't say that it affected my viewing experience in the slightest.

I don't have the 2D version running on another TV next to this one, nor did I immediately put in the 2D version afterwards and shout out 'what the f*** happened to the brightness?'. I simply topped up my JD & coke, pressed play and zoned out.

With the stunning audio and superlative 3D video, this disc is home cinema heaven.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

So, I just watched the 3D version (UK platter) and I'm still reeling, 'cause it was awesome. Whether the brightness thing y'all have uncovered is intentional or not, I can't say that it affected my viewing experience in the slightest.

I don't have the 2D version running on another TV next to this one, nor did I immediately put in the 2D version afterwards and shout out 'what the f*** happened to the brightness?'. I simply topped up my JD & coke, pressed play and zoned out.

With the stunning audio and superlative 3D video, this disc is home cinema heaven.

Qft
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post #87 of 120 Old 02-11-2012, 04:34 PM
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If this title was say... DNR'd, I think a lot of you would not be quite as forgiving.

A fault of the transfer is a fault of the transfer. This brightness issue is clearly a fault. Why accept this fault but not others? It implies a double standard. If you ask me, this issue is possibly just as bad if not worse than DNR/EE.

This disc needs a recall, enough said. I see exchange programs done by Disney etc for almost insignificant fixes like the POTC framing issue in one scene, yet such a significant issue like this is accepeted even by some of you hardcore enthusiasts? I don't get it.

Just because Michael Bay has come out defending the Blu-ray disc means everything is OK?
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post #88 of 120 Old 02-11-2012, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX View Post

If this title was say... DNR'd, I think a lot of you would not be quite as forgiving.

A fault of the transfer is a fault of the transfer. This brightness issue is clearly a fault. Why accept this fault but not others? It implies a double standard. If you ask me, this issue is possibly just as bad if not worse than DNR/EE.

This disc needs a recall, enough said. I see exchange programs done by Disney etc for almost insignificant fixes like the POTC framing issue in one scene, yet such a significant issue like this is accepeted even by some of you hardcore enthusiasts? I don't get it.

Just because Michael Bay has come out defending the Blu-ray disc means everything is OK?

Agreed. The disc is messed up, period. Nobody should be defending this error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

So, I just watched the 3D version (UK platter) and I'm still reeling, 'cause it was awesome. Whether the brightness thing y'all have uncovered is intentional or not, I can't say that it affected my viewing experience in the slightest.

I don't have the 2D version running on another TV next to this one, nor did I immediately put in the 2D version afterwards and shout out 'what the f*** happened to the brightness?'. I simply topped up my JD & coke, pressed play and zoned out.

With the stunning audio and superlative 3D video, this disc is home cinema heaven.


I did not pop in the 2d disc right after and I was drinking beer (), but the brightness drop was obvious to me and cant be anything but an error as it makes no sense. No matter if you noticed it or not, its there and the presentation is not as good as it should be.

I agree with you on the audio.......no issues there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Will Paramount & Michael Bay rectify this issue and offer free replacements?

They absolutely should, but I am not holding my breath.

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post #89 of 120 Old 02-13-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX View Post

If this title was say... DNR'd, I think a lot of you would not be quite as forgiving.

A fault of the transfer is a fault of the transfer. This brightness issue is clearly a fault. Why accept this fault but not others? It implies a double standard. If you ask me, this issue is possibly just as bad if not worse than DNR/EE.

This disc needs a recall, enough said. I see exchange programs done by Disney etc for almost insignificant fixes like the POTC framing issue in one scene, yet such a significant issue like this is accepeted even by some of you hardcore enthusiasts? I don't get it.

Just because Michael Bay has come out defending the Blu-ray disc means everything is OK?

Well said. Fully support the above comments.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #90 of 120 Old 02-13-2012, 07:32 PM
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I had already watched the 3D version. And I watched the Wingsuit and battle scenes at the end a few times. The Wingsuit jump from the copter is absolutely awesome in 3D. After reading in this thread about the brightness I decided to watched the last half of both 2D & 3D versions. I flipped back and forth between the two and I'm not seeing the big difference in brightness described here. I'm certainly not seeing the horrible green and teal look that someone mentioned. Better check your display.
2D in the Oppo BDP 83 and 3D in the Panasonic BDT110. Connected through an Onkyo 709 and then to an Epson 5010 3D projector and displayed on a 106" screen.
I know that the Epson compensates for brightness in 3D mode. Maybe that's why I'm not seeing much brightness difference? Maybe the 2D seems a little brighter because you don't have to where the glasses? Anyway, I'm not seeing that much of a difference. I would much rather watch the 3D version. Way better experience, especially the battle at the end. I gotta tell you the image looks pretty damn good to me for both versions.
Except for Avatar I think this title is by far the best use of 3D in movie so far.
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