Indiana Jones Trilogy - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1202 Old 09-10-2012, 08:48 PM
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Or how about some screencaps from one of the three HD Raiders trailers so we can compare the colors in them to the new timing on the film to see how close it is. I assume the main theatrical trailer would be the best choice in this regard -- though I know the trailers were all flat (i.e. 1.85:1), in this case it wouldn't matter. It would at least give us a better idea of what the filmmakers thought the colors should look like in '81/'82.
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post #632 of 1202 Old 09-10-2012, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

Or how about some screencaps from one of the three HD Raiders trailers so we can compare the colors in them to the new timing on the film to see how close it is. I assume the main theatrical trailer would be the best choice in this regard -- though I know the trailers were all flat (i.e. 1.85:1), in this case it wouldn't matter. It would at least give us a better idea of what the filmmakers thought the colors should look like in '81/'82.
Trailers often look little like the release prints... and you're also assuming the video transfer even got the trailer right.

The only reliable reference for how the film looked originally is the print Spielberg signed off on, and any properly made well-projected prints that match it. Anything else, there are too many assumptions you have to make.
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post #633 of 1202 Old 09-10-2012, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

The only reliable reference for how the film looked originally is the print Spielberg signed off on, and any properly made well-projected prints that match it. Anything else, there are too many assumptions you have to make.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that if you can barely read the director's name in the opening credits due to the overly pumped levels, it probably ain't right...

I really have to wonder if Spielberg has any time in his day to look at these discs.

"Steven, the Indiana Jones Blu0ray collection is finished."
"Oh, great! How's it look?"
"It's never looked better."
"Excellent...get it right out there..."


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post #634 of 1202 Old 09-10-2012, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I think it's pretty safe to assume that if you can barely read the director's name in the opening credits due to the overly pumped levels, it probably ain't right...
Maybe it's safe to assume. Maybe it ain't. Unless you know for sure how it was printed, it's still just an assumption.

From my experience, people in the HT community tend to be overly familiar with video releases and overly unfamiliar with the prints of a given film and underestimate how much they often differ. Personally I have no useful memories of how Raiders looks on film, and I'm far more interested in hearing from people who have more recent experience with it, then the people comparing it to whatever old video transfers are out there.
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post #635 of 1202 Old 09-10-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Maybe it's safe to assume. Maybe it ain't. Unless you know for sure how it was printed, it's still just an assumption.
From my experience, people in the HT community tend to be overly familiar with video releases and overly unfamiliar with the prints of a given film and underestimate how much they often differ. Personally I have no useful memories of how Raiders looks on film, and I'm far more interested in hearing from people who have more recent experience with it, then the people comparing it to whatever old video transfers are out there.
I'm not comparing it to anything.

Do you really, really honestly believe the opening is supposed to look that way? Heck, even the Paramount Logo is blooming - and I definitely know how that's supposed to look. For everyone else that might now, that's something that you can compare to any good and faithful transfer from any one of their movies.


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post #636 of 1202 Old 09-10-2012, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I'm not comparing it to anything.
Do you really, really honestly believe the opening is supposed to look that way? Heck, even the Paramount Logo is blooming - and I definitely know how that's supposed to look. For everyone else that might now, that's something that you can compare to any good and faithful transfer from any one of their movies.
I have no idea, because I don't remember. Maybe it was printed up so you could see the shadow detail. I don't like assuming things based on how *I* think it should look.
Not sure what you mean about the "blooming"... for all the times I've seen the Paramount logo, I rarely pay much attention to how it looks.
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post #637 of 1202 Old 09-10-2012, 11:28 PM
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Viewed some short clips from each film and while this is the best I have seen Indy look they still look so-so IMHO (at least based upon the short segments I watched, only 1-2 minutes each).

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post #638 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

The only reliable reference for how the film looked originally is the print Spielberg signed off on.

The interesting thing is that Mr. Spielberg has gone through the above process you describe three times in just the past decade... all apparently supervised by world-famous colorist Lou Levinson (who's been supervising video masters of the Indy films for 20-25 years now). Yet, whatever reference print Spielberg signed off on in 2002 which resulted in the first HD master... and then again around 2008 for the second HD master seems to have had colors and densities markedly different from whatever reference print he signed off on for the 30th Anniversary restoration.

Unless, of course, they were still using the same exact reference print they've always used and the only difference is this time Spielberg just sat down Janusz Kaminski next to Lou Levinson and said, "Have at it, boys. Give me a call when you're done" as some here have alleged. wink.gif
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post #639 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 02:03 AM
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God Dahmit I am sick and tired of not wanting to buy the movies I really love in the best format on The Planet.
All because the people in charge are fraking it up!

Back to the Future = Bust. I've been tempted at some of the low prices, but I've abstained.
Lord of the Rings - OK for the most part, except for Fellowship = Bust. I still bought it though.
Star Wars = Bust. I've officially sworn off all things SW. Which makes it hard to maintain my Geek Card amongst my friends and on The Internet. I refuse to give any more money to GL. And Han didn't shoot first - he shot period.

Now one of the greatest trilogies to ever be created = Bust.
I refuse to reward bad behaviour with a purchase of what is a compromised transfer.

Should I go ahead and cancel my pre-order for the Bond 50 set now to avoid spending ₤₤₤ on the UK set?

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It was technically a single shenanigan, more like a hijink...

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post #640 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Setting aside the colors, what is "new transfer" good for an older anamorphic film (before the late 80s, when, as I understand, Panavision made major improvements to the lenses)? Shots like http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5359/indy13zbd.png or http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2905/indy21zbd.png seem as detailed as just about anything else out there that can be fairly compared.
There's nothing wrong with the detail levels here. The old transfer had outstanding detail to begin with, a 2K transfer done right is still higher-res than bluray, so it's not that surprisnig that this one doesn't significantly improve upon it (in terms of detail... in terms of analog texture, the improvement is significant).

Absotruthly, there's some terrific detail there for anamorphic glass of that period. If they've DNR'ed the opticals and any other dupe sections, well, that's par for the course these days.

As for the opening scene, I'm sure I read something from Senor Spielbergo re: the new transfer where he actually said that they brightened that sequence up a little. Doesn't make it right, but I don't think it's a "screw up" either.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Trailers often look little like the release prints... and you're also assuming the video transfer even got the trailer right.
The only reliable reference for how the film looked originally is the print Spielberg signed off on, and any properly made well-projected prints that match it. Anything else, there are too many assumptions you have to make.


He signed off on the second HDTV version as he hated the Lucasfilm cgi addition in the first HD master and wanted it changed back.
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post #642 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 04:03 AM
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So has anyone picked this up yet? There is a special midnight release for this set tonight if anybody is in a rush for it. Personally I will wait till tommorrow smile.gif

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post #643 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 06:51 AM
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Received mine today. I'm seeing a problem with the Last Crusade disc. There's a ton of aliasing, most noticeable on the opening credits. They look nothing like the first two films. It looks like the same issue that plagued the first 20 minutes of Braveheart. Anyone else seeing this?

what's a semiologist?
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post #644 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 08:19 AM
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For anyone who has this already can you say if the extras are all on the 5th disc or are some on each of the 4 feature discs? Did they maximize the disc space for the features on the 4 movie discs if the extras are on the last disc?
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post #645 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

The interesting thing is that Mr. Spielberg has gone through the above process you describe three times in just the past decade... all apparently supervised by world-famous colorist Lou Levinson (who's been supervising video masters of the Indy films for 20-25 years now). Yet, whatever reference print Spielberg signed off on in 2002 which resulted in the first HD master... and then again around 2008 for the second HD master seems to have had colors and densities markedly different from whatever reference print he signed off on for the 30th Anniversary restoration.
Unless, of course, they were still using the same exact reference print they've always used and the only difference is this time Spielberg just sat down Janusz Kaminski next to Lou Levinson and said, "Have at it, boys. Give me a call when you're done" as some here have alleged. wink.gif
Then perhaps we know who Levinson refers to in this quote from this article http://www.studiodaily.com/2011/04/colorist-lou-levinson-on-restoring-and-sometimes-re-thinking-movies-with-the-baselight/ :

"I asked Levinson if he considered an original answer print to be the ultimate reference when working on a project like this. “A lot of creators never stop thinking about their films,” even after their release, Levinson said in response. He went on to explain that the director is the arbiter of how far a colorist should go in refining a film’s imagery. He mentioned one type of director — naming no names — for whom a film’s look is a bit of a moving target. “I’ve done the same movie four times and had it look different all four times,” he said."
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post #646 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 10:27 AM
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This is what Thorsten Kaiser said about the screenshots so far. I didn't translate it to English and would also guess that those online translation services would somehow butcher the nuances of different meaning of the choice of his words:

"Ist die Farbkorrektur, so wie sie sich AUF DEN GEPOSTETEN BILDERN dargestellt, exakt wie auf den 35mm Auskopierungen und so wie beim Original ? Nein. Im Kontrast ist noch einiges nicht so, wie es sein könnte, wobei sich hier aber die Frage nach HEAD und FULL RANGE Signal stellt, und wir somit wieder bei der "Beweiskette" wären. Die Farbbalance ist aber deutlich richtiger als bei allen Videomasters zuvor, die zu stark auf "Natürlichkeit" gesetzt haben; und die Schattierungen sind auch deutlich verbessert. Was bei den BILDERN (ich sage bewußt nicht Blu-ray[!]) fehlt, ist die optimale Trennung zwischen Gelb und Rot, aber hier reden wir erneut über MARGINALIEN. Die orangenen Hauttonalien sind endlich wieder (fast) richtig), sie sind ein wenig zu gesättigt und der Kontrast würde noch einiges dazu bewältigen - wenn er denn da wäre. das bringt mich zum nächsten Punkt.
Ist das Signal auf den BILDERN heller als bei den Masters zuvor bzw. ist dies richtig ? - Nein, und hier sollte man abwarten, bis die Discs wirklich da sind. Siehe Kontrast.
However: Ich hatte vorher ja schon die Tücken des Trulight-Settings erwähnt, dass im Prinzip eine digitale setup Einstellung in Farbkorrekturkonsolen ist. Diese "ahmt" die Spezifikationen von Vision Premier Stocks nach, in Farbgebung, Kontrast "and all". Und hier sitzt der Hase im Pfeffer, denn einige Sachen lassen sich bei diesem Setting, so man es benutzt (was bei den Bildern evident ist - siehe Paramount Logo) nicht so einfach "gegenkorrigieren". Gerade Zyan und Gelb - aber auch die Gradationskurve sind ziemlich "locked". Da helfen nur Umwege, die aufwändig sind. Dies kann auch hier ein Problem gewesen sein (re: Helligkeit, Kontrast). Dennoch ist die Arbeit eine sehr gute. Wie das Bildsignal genau aussieht, muss man einfach abwarten, erst die BDs selbst auf einem richtigen Monitor können diese Aussage wirklich genau treffen.
.
.
.

Allen hier Debattierenden ist aber hoffentlich schon klar, dass sie die ganze Zeit, also die ganzen 30 Jahre, auf Video und im TV FARBKORRIGIERTE und an DEN "TV-STANDARD" angepasste Versionen gesehen haben, die mit den originalen 35mm Auskopierungen so gut wie nichts zu tun hatten ?

Von dem, was ich gesehen habe (so diese grabs den BD files entsprechen sollten) ist farblich leider das Ganze etwas zu sehr mit Trulight settings auf "modern" getrimmt - kommt aber dennoch den originalen deutlich näher (ja, auch das Orange in den Hauttönen) als alle Auswertungen früherer Jahre, die immer "natürlich" wirken sollten, selbst mit der Brechstange - was beim ersten Teil mich immer zum Abschalten motiviert hat."
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post #647 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 11:11 AM
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For what it's worth, this is what Google translate came up with:
Quote:
"Is the color correction as it is POSTED ON THE IMAGES shown exactly how to 35mm Auskopierungen and so like the original? No. In contrast there is still work not what it could be said here, however, the question of HEAD and fullrange signal, and thus we again at the "chain of evidence" would be. The color balance is significantly more accurate than all previous video masters who put on too much "naturalness", and the shades are also significantly improved. What with the IMAGES (I deliberately do not say Blu-ray [!]) Is missing, is the optimal separation between yellow and red, but here we are again talking about MARGIN ALIEN. The orange Hauttonalien are finally back) (almost) right, they are a little too saturated and the contrast would have a lot to deal with - if he was there because. Which brings me to the next point.
If the signal light on the IMAGES than at the Masters before or is this correct? - No, and here one should wait until the discs are really there. See contrast.
However: I had previously already the pitfalls of TruLight settings mentioned that, in principle, is a digital setup setting in color correction consoles. This "recognized" by the specifications of Vision Premier Stocks in color, contrast, "and all". And here the rabbit sits in the pepper, because some things can be in this setting, so to use it (which is evident in the pictures - see Paramount logo) "gegenkorrigieren" not so simple. Just cyan and yellow - but the curve is pretty "locked". Since only help detours that are consuming. This may also have been a problem (re: brightness, contrast). Nevertheless, the work is very good. Looks exactly like the picture signal, you just have to wait, until the BDs themselves on a proper monitor can make this statement really accurate.

All here debaters is hopefully clear that they have seen all the time, so the whole 30 years, on video and on TV COLOUR CORRECTED and THE "TV STANDARD" customized versions that work well with the original 35mm Auskopierungen to nothing had to do?

From what I've seen (as these grabs should match the BD files) is in color, unfortunately the whole thing trimmed too much on with TruLight settings "modern" - is but the original significantly closer (yes, the orange in the skin tones ) than all evaluations from previous years, which should always be "natural" look, even with the crowbar - what has always motivated me in the first part of a shutdown."


There's a little nonsense from the automated translation process, but in a nutshell, what I get out of it is he thinks it's be tinkered with to be a bit "modern", but stops short at saying it looks bad. He's siding more with it looking good overall. He seems to indicate the overall look is at least consistent and to do anything better would likely be more time consuming (I assume that to mean, grading each scene as needed on a case by case basis).

He seems to cite the two things we've brought up here: contrast and the color temperature as the flaws, but seems to indicate previous releases aren't necessarily correct since they were altered a bit for a "TV look" themselves.

However, I'm glad to see he cited the same thing I did - i.e., the Paramount logo being boosted.


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post #648 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 11:27 AM
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i just watched raiders is it a bit orange? yes, do the colours look exactly like the 3 vintage trailers on the disc? yes
im guessing they matched it to how it should have been not how its ended up over the years
the blue line is also apparent in the original trailers!
does it sound good? YES!!!! still not as much rear separation as i would have liked (marion in the basket being directed thru the rears has alays been a missed oppurtunity imho)
will i be watching it again over the next few days? yes! but now onto the extras

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post #649 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 11:42 AM
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Caps-A-Holic has posted screen caps of the original trilogy.

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=14348&cap2=14332&art=full&image=7&cID=1273&action=1&lossless=#vergleich

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post #650 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Caps-A-Holic has posted screen caps of the original trilogy.
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=14348&cap2=14332&art=full&image=7&cID=1273&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
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Tuesday can't come soon enough. All 3 look beautiful.
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post #651 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Caps-A-Holic has posted screen caps of the original trilogy.
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=14348&cap2=14332&art=full&image=7&cID=1273&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
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Cap number 5 of the Last Crusade is a good example of the aliasing I'm talking about. Look at the edges of the hats and the legs of the chairs in the middle. Something's definitely gone wrong with this one.

what's a semiologist?
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post #652 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quite a bit of the image zoomed/cropped off in some of the screens. Especially the TOD title.
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post #653 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Caps-A-Holic has posted screen caps of the original trilogy.
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=14348&cap2=14332&art=full&image=7&cID=1273&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
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Two and three look a bit too edgy for my taste but nice nonetheless, I'll take it.
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post #654 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Caps-A-Holic has posted screen caps of the original trilogy.
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=14348&cap2=14332&art=full&image=7&cID=1273&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
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I'm missing the blue skies and cloud detail in RAIDERS, caps 9 and 13. The yellow wash is troubling, but the lack of high-end detail is what's really bumming me out.
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post #655 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 12:30 PM
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post #656 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umberto eco View Post

Cap number 5 of the Last Crusade is a good example of the aliasing I'm talking about. Look at the edges of the hats and the legs of the chairs in the middle. Something's definitely gone wrong with this one.

Last Crusade caps don't look stellar in general but yeah I see the stair-stepping too. Something's up with the scaling on this one.

Those Raiders caps look freaking fantastic though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

For what it's worth, this is what Google translate came up with:
There's a little nonsense from the automated translation process, but in a nutshell, what I get out of it is he thinks it's be tinkered with to be a bit "modern", but stops short at saying it looks bad. He's siding more with it looking good overall. He seems to indicate the overall look is at least consistent and to do anything better would likely be more time consuming (I assume that to mean, grading each scene as needed on a case by case basis).
He seems to cite the two things we've brought up here: contrast and the color temperature as the flaws, but seems to indicate previous releases aren't necessarily correct since they were altered a bit for a "TV look" themselves.
However, I'm glad to see he cited the same thing I did - i.e., the Paramount logo being boosted.

It is not right
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post #658 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 01:33 PM
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The color grading of the Blu-ray caps looks right to me. On that sunset scene (Indy and workers in silhouette), I remember the theatrical and Laserdisc versions having the more yellow coloring in the sky, NOT the burnt orange look of the DVD (and the above HD caps).

Color me (pun intended) happy with what I'm seeing so far!

Mark


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth View Post

The color grading of the Blu-ray caps looks right to me. On that sunset scene (Indy and workers in silhouette), I remember the theatrical and Laserdisc versions having the more yellow coloring in the sky, NOT the burnt orange look of the DVD (and the above HD caps).
Color me (pun intended) happy with what I'm seeing so far!
Mark

It is not the colour in that scene that is the issue, their shadows used to be a crisp black in contrast to the sky, so that when the hat went on you knew who it was straight away.
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post #660 of 1202 Old 09-11-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_breeze View Post

I'm missing the blue skies and cloud detail in RAIDERS, caps 9 and 13. The yellow wash is troubling, but the lack of high-end detail is what's really bumming me out.

Look at the shadows of the people in cap #9. The shadows fall slightly forward and toward the viewer. That places the sun over the character's right shoulder, away from the viewer. With the sun in that position, the sky in the background would NOT be all that blue. The blue would be washed out by the reflection of the sun on moisture and dust particles in the air. As a photographer, I deal with this sort of thing all the time. Shooting "into" the sun results in a washed out sky devoid of any significant blue.

The Blu-ray screen cap looks FAR more natural.

And speaking of dust particles. Load up a section of cap #9 and move your mouse cursor on and off the image. Watch how much of the dust that is noticeable in the air (including near ground level) on the Blu-ray cap literally disappears when you switch to the DVD cap.

It's a busy archelogical dig! There's SUPPOSED to be dust in the air. And that dust would contribute toward making the sky look more like a dirty white than a blue island paradise.

The scene takes place in a desert with a hot sun overhead. A sun that is reflected by the sand and dirt on the ground and in the air. The more yellow tint and brightness of the Blu-ray caps are exactly how it should look (and how I remember it looking in the theater and on Laserdisc). The deeper contrast and lighting feel of the DVD is more reminiscent of something shot at 5pm in a shady park, not at 1pm in the desert.

Mark


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