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post #901 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 10:43 AM
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I honestly feel like no one actually even bothers to critique these older films anymore. It's pretty much this was so awesome 30 years ago and there is nothing wrong with it when there clearly is some pretty immersion breaking stuff. I mean, face melting effects? Uhh, no. Let's have some objectivity here. This stuff is far far far from anything resembling the cutting edge. That was decent how long ago? And it doesn't have the classic mentality that old films have. Effects laden films just look dated to me and not in a good way.

I guess it doesn't matter. I just don't feel the same way about these films anymore. A wild ride I guess but to me it just seems like an average low budget action adventure these days. Skin me alive but I don't watch films through rosy glasses.

Of course I love Indy I just wish they could have updated the whole thing without Spielberg throwing his schlock at it and trying way too hard to make it kids' stuff. They had the chance to really put one out of the park and they failed miserably to the point I don't trust Lucas at all and wish he would just go away.

I mean people seem more concerned with the color timing than if this film is even any good anymore.
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post #902 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:04 AM
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I guess it doesn't matter. I just don't feel the same way about these films anymore. A wild ride I guess but to me it just seems like an average low budget action adventure these days. Skin me alive but I don't watch films through rosy glasses.



Dated effects aside what exactly is "low budget" about these films?

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post #903 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:07 AM
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I mean people seem more concerned with the color timing than if this film is even any good anymore.

It's the blu-ray software forum *no comment about the film*, ever. wink.gif


...what do you mean exactly by "I just wish they could have updated the whole thing"? As in new visual effects? In that case let me put it this way: NOOooooooo!!!!! A film is not a software that needs updating to keep it current.
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post #904 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

I mean people seem more concerned with the color timing than if this film is even any good anymore.
Okay, I'll make an addendum to my review:
Raiders is still a great movie. And it is not "effects laden" rolleyes.gif
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post #905 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:11 AM
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Here is an opinion piece on Jones that is not really popular. Most people forget there were more than a few prominent critics who disliked the ride as a whole. For the record I adored these films as a kid no doubt.

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2011/11/23/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-is-the-spielberg-classic-overrated/

Low budget to me is some hammy acting, weird directing, and just lame special effects. I get into old films because they don't rely on effects much of the time and exist in their own territory. I AM NOT saying I dislike Indiana Jones as a character or that I think it was not innovative. I love the character and it was innovative. But a lot of time has passed. Getting ready to watch this wanting to be thrilled and I was left with a sigh. This just does not represent great film to me.

Now by that article there are plenty of people who watch this film like some kind of religion. And you cannot criticize their religion. I find these people hilarious. I am ADD AND I am without a soul because I don't enjoy a completely dated picture with mediocre acting?

That being said again why they could not update this franchise and bring in some quality people speaks volumes about its caretakers. Crystal Skull was completely and utterly awful.

No, I mean update it like Batman. Put somebody who knows film like Terry Gilliam or someone who can do fantasy well. Give it a good script and put some time into it. I just feel like they drove this franchise into the ground with that last one. It left a completely weird taste in me and watching these old ones even on Bluray I don't know I am ready to leave them in my childhood where they belong and where I loved them.
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post #906 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

Here is an opinion piece on Jones that is not really popular. Most people forget there were more than a few prominent critics who disliked the ride as a whole. For the record I adored these films as a kid no doubt.
http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2011/11/23/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-is-the-spielberg-classic-overrated/
Low budget to me is some hammy acting, weird directing, and just lame special effects. I get into old films because they don't rely on effects much of the time and exist in their own territory. I AM NOT saying I dislike Indiana Jones as a character or that I think it was not innovative. I love the character and it was innovative. But a lot of time has passed. Getting ready to watch this wanting to be thrilled and I was left with a sigh. This just does not represent great film to me.
Now by that article there are plenty of people who watch this film like some kind of religion. And you cannot criticize their religion. I find these people hilarious. I am ADD AND I am without a soul because I don't enjoy a completely dated picture with mediocre acting?
That being said again why they could not update this franchise and bring in some quality people speaks volumes about its caretakers. Crystal Skull was completely and utterly awful.
No, I mean update it like Batman. Put somebody who knows film like Terry Gilliam or someone who can do fantasy well. Give it a good script and put some time into it. I just feel like they drove this franchise into the ground with that last one.
STOP THE PRESSES eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
someone on the internet thinks a movie is OVERRATED eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
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post #907 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:16 AM
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That was not the point. The point is people cannot even speak about this film with any kind of objectivity or they are labeled as heretics.

I mean I do still like some scenes in these film for sure. I don't hate them or anything understand. I just don't enjoy them as much anymore.

Part of it the Lucas syndrome. I don't really feel this guy has ever made a decently serious or engrossing film imo. Star Wars is dated as hell as well. It could be really good but he is too busy half-assing it. They could devote a hundred million or so of his fortune to those films and give them the ultra blade runner edition and also give fans the originals too. But he has no taste and I don't even want him to try anymore if he doesn't have advisors and people that are simply better at their craft than him to do the job.
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post #908 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:20 AM
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That was not the point. The point is people cannot even speak about this film with any kind of objectivity or they are labeled as heretics.



Art is nearly impossible to judge objectively.
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post #909 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:21 AM
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STOP THE PRESSES eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
someone on the internet thinks a movie is OVERRATED eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

Seriously... Al I know is I watched the first movie as a kid, and guess what, ran around the house for months pretending to be Indy with a fake whip, fighting Nazi's..

Fast forward to now. I have a 7 year old boy who is running around the house pretending to be Indy...

I don't suspect some critics to ever get this movie as they forgot what it was like to be a kid again and enjoy them for what they are. Are there are those critics that will simply post differing opinios just to get people to read them....
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post #910 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:21 AM
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Objectivity, meaning the effects are garbage. This is not subjective. The effects are dated, old, and don't blend in at all. This is not my opinion.

The sound design is laughable. It's not realistic in any way. Subjective I guess if you must but the opening scenes of Raiders are funny to me. I mean can you hear the two tracks they have going in the jungle that don't sound at all like a jungle? Not to be mean but you pushed for an answer.

If I had kids there is no doubt this is a film franchise I would expose them to. No doubt at all.
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post #911 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:24 AM
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Objectivity, meaning the effects are garbage. This is not subjective. The effects are dated, old, and don't blend in at all. This is not my opinion.
If I had kids there is no doubt this is a film franchise I would expose them to. No doubt at all.

And in 10 years people will say them same thing about the LOTR movies, Avatar, etc. so what? All special effects date themself at some point as technology evolves.
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post #912 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:26 AM
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I don't really think LotR will be THAT dated. They built a lot of that stuff and it holds up well. Avatar is just a weird film. I would rather watch Indy than that any day of the week. No doubt other films have dated effects. This one is really old though and from a period that so to speak just doesn't come off well these days. Blade Runner is F'ing Lucky to hold up as well as it does. It's amazing really.

Robocop is another that is somewhat dated but I still totally enjoy it and see it as a masterpiece.

I also love Ford in these films. I just don't really like the scripts that much.

I mean I am just trying to discuss how I feel about these films. All there has really been is arguing over color timing in this thread.

There are definitely still scenes I love from Temple and Raiders that are pretty much engrained into my mind though.

Plus they totally inspired the Uncharted series on PS3 which is pretty awesome. And uh, most action adventure films too.
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post #913 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

I don't really think LotR will be THAT dated. They built a lot of that stuff and it holds up well. Avatar is just a weird film. I would rather watch Indy than that any day of the week. No doubt other films have dated effects. This one is really old though and from a period that so to speak just doesn't come off well these days. Blade Runner is F'ing Lucky to hold up as well as it does. It's amazing really.
Robocop is another that is somewhat dated but I still totally enjoy it and see it as a masterpiece.
I also love Ford in these films. I just don't really like the scripts that much.
I mean I am just trying to discuss how I feel about these films. All there has really been is arguing over color timing in this thread.
There are definitely still scenes I love from Temple and Raiders that are pretty much engrained into my mind though.
Plus they totally inspired the Uncharted series on PS3 which is pretty awesome. And uh, most action adventure films too.

LOL Your posts are cracking me up. I'm guessing you're about 16 or 17?

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post #914 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

I honestly feel like no one actually even bothers to critique these older films anymore. It's pretty much this was so awesome 30 years ago and there is nothing wrong with it when there clearly is some pretty immersion breaking stuff. I mean, face melting affects? Uhh, no. Let's have some objectivity here. This stuff is far far far from anything resembling the cutting edge. And it doesn't have the classic mentality that old films have. Effects laden films just look dated to me and not in a good way.
I guess it doesn't matter. I just don't feel the same way about these films anymore. A wild ride I guess but to me it just seems like an average low budget action adventure these days. Skin me alive but I don't watch films through rosy glasses.
Let me ask you....

Were you even alive in 1981? I not only was, but saw this in the theater.

The things they did back then with practical effects were pretty awesome then. I look at those effects now and see the craftsmanship of what they did to create those effects compared to the digital stuff today. You couldn't just tweak stuff until it's just the way you wanted. Often, with special effects, you got one take to get it right.

That final shot of raiders was a huge undetaking considering 95% of the shot was a painting - you know, painted with a paintbrush and paint. That's craftmanship. These days, they would have created it with CGI, then used some impossible swooping "camera" move to shoot it because it would look cool.

For what it's worth, I'll take the work involved with sucking a model house into a giant vacuum cleaner or a puppet Yoda any day.

Further, the film cost $18 million to make in 1981 dollars, which was about average for that time. It's just under $45 million now, which isn't blockbuster money, but far from low budget.

Quote:
Of course I love Indy I just wish they could have updated the whole thing without Spielberg throwing his schlock at it and trying way too hard to make it kids' stuff. They had the chance to really put one out of the park and they failed miserably to the point I don't trust Lucas at all and wish he would just go away.
First, Indy 4 wasn't an "update". It was a continuation of the story.

Second, we all know Indy 4 was ruined by nuking fridges, Tarzan-style vine swinging and "interdimensional beings".

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I mean people seem more concerned with the color timing than if this film is even any good anymore.
We're more concerned with color timing because that's all that's wrong with the movie.

If you don't like it, why do you care?
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post #915 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:40 AM
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I mean I am just trying to discuss how I feel about these films. All there has really been is arguing over color timing in this thread.

Again, and this time I'm serious (see #940), it may just be that people prefer to focus on the technicalities in that particular forum, otherwise things would get ugly pretty fast. tongue.gif That's why we also have the movie forum... Having said that I understand we're all passionate about movies (there goes the objectivity wink.gif), I am myself more than once tempted to comment on the film rather than the Blu-ray release itself.
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post #916 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:49 AM
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First, Indy 4 wasn't an "update". It was a continuation of the story.
Second, we all know Indy 4 was ruined by nuking fridges, Tarzan-style vine swinging and "interdimensional beings".

Yet that's consistent with the timeline... Roswell, Cold War... It would have been silly to have Indy fighting nazis for 20 years wink.gif

To be honest, Crystal Skull may not be my favorite, but it's just too cool to see these characters again...
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post #917 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

I don't really think LotR will be THAT dated. They built a lot of that stuff and it holds up well. Avatar is just a weird film. I would rather watch Indy than that any day of the week. No doubt other films have dated effects. This one is really old though and from a period that so to speak just doesn't come off well these days. Blade Runner is F'ing Lucky to hold up as well as it does. It's amazing really.
Robocop is another that is somewhat dated but I still totally enjoy it and see it as a masterpiece.
I also love Ford in these films. I just don't really like the scripts that much.
I mean I am just trying to discuss how I feel about these films. All there has really been is arguing over color timing in this thread.
There are definitely still scenes I love from Temple and Raiders that are pretty much engrained into my mind though.
Plus they totally inspired the Uncharted series on PS3 which is pretty awesome. And uh, most action adventure films too.

Of course LOTR will look dated. As good as it looked when it was made, for the same reason any movie made with CGI will over time. Just consider Moore's Law, I mean we will see these being done with computers in 10 years that are not even fathomable now.

The original Star Wars (A New Hope) won numerous Academy Awards for special effects back in 1978, and now if you made a movie using those same effects, the critics would kill you with the criticism.

It is just the way it is, and I simply don't focus on the special effects when watching catalog films. It would drive me nuts and take away from the enjoyment of the movie.
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post #918 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

Again, and this time I'm serious (see #940), it may just be that people prefer to focus on the technicalities in that particular forum, otherwise things would get ugly pretty fast. tongue.gif That's why we also have the movie forum... Having said that I understand we're all passionate about movies (there goes the objectivity wink.gif), I am myself more than once tempted to comment on the film rather than the Blu-ray release itself.
Actually, for me, it's theat the color timing is something that was altered and should not have been. It's changeable if the studio wanted to.

The rest, including the effects, is in the can. No one is going back and creating them again. The movie has been made, is done and it's what we're left with.
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post #919 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:55 AM
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Yet that's consistent with the timeline... Roswell, Cold War... It would have been silly to have Indy fighting nazis for 20 years wink.gif
To be honest, Crystal Skull may not be my favorite, but it's just too cool to see these characters again...

After reading reviews of Crystal Skull, I put off watching the movie as long as I could. While I did not find it as bad as most reviews, I felt the film to be the worst of the series by quite a bit. I also enjoyed it more than I expected. But my expectations were very low...

Hopefully this can be redeemed with the fifth movie, but I have serious doubts as long as Lucas is involved.
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post #920 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 11:55 AM
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raiders is the greatest movie ever made that isnt called star wars thats the final answer on that one smile.gif

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post #921 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 12:18 PM
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Hopefully this can be redeemed with the fifth movie, but I have serious doubts as long as Lucas is involved.

well they better get to work quick... Harrison Ford is getting a bit too old and Shia is concentrating on artsy flicks now, he's done with blockbusters, or so he thinks tongue.gif
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post #922 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 12:21 PM
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Hopefully this can be redeemed with the fifth movie, but I have serious doubts as long as Lucas is involved.

Noooooooooooo!

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post #923 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 12:52 PM
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well they better get to work quick... Harrison Ford is getting a bit too old and Shia is concentrating on artsy flicks now, he's done with blockbusters, or so he thinks tongue.gif

I would actually like to see a reboot.. Harrison in some sort of cameo role and Shia gone... Not a fan of him...
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post #924 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 12:52 PM
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To me the biggest problems with Crystal Skull were with the script and not the Directing. The film jumped around and didn't do a very good job at exposition. The fridge nuking and the monkeys were painful. John Hurt's Oxley speaking in odd riddles was more annoying than intriguing after a few scenes. The idea of the Russians as antagonists and the UFO spin wasn't necessarily a bad way to go. It reflected the pulp of the time period. Karen Allen is a treat even if she's a bit rusty in a few scenes. It's my least favorite of the films. It doesn't bring the franchise down the way the Star Wars prequels did. Temple of Doom, which I know a lot of people really like, has a lot of the same problems for me. Willie Scott is simply annoying from the first frame and doesn't improve. The dinner table scene with bugs and monkey brains is a juvenile gross out fest and didn't wear well for me. And riding a raft out of a plane and skiing it down a mountain is up there with nuking a fridge. Still Temple of Doom has more good scenes and does a much better job of communicating the direction of the story. If they do make a 5th film I hope the script is up to the task. I'd love to see Indy go out on a high note.

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post #925 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 12:52 PM
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I have to say that i strongly disagree with the praise the colors in the Cairo scenes are getting. I would even go as far to say they are the second most affected (the most affected being of course the horrendous opening). At first glance they may appear pretty and colorful but the yellow push overpowers other colors and makes the image wash out and lowers the contrast (although the severity changes as the colors are pretty inconsistent).

Take for example this shot: http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?art=full&cap1=14347&cap2=14331&cID=1273&lossless=&image=6#auswahl It looks well with nice colors, but if you compare it with the DVD the colors are not what they could have been, the contrast is lower and the image is washed out. Or take these images: Blu-ray http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3664/indy10zbd.png and HDTV http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6537/indy10wnew.png. Or these: Blu-ray http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5168/indy12zbd.png and HDTV: http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9018/indy12wnew.png. I'm not saying now the DVD or HDTV have the correct colors, I only want to show that there could be significantly richer colors and higher contrast. You can also compare it to a similar scene in Crusade: http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?art=&cap1=14411&cap2=14395&cID=1275&lossless=&image=6#auswahl. Thats how it could have (and most likely should have) looked.

I mentioned inconsistent colors which is also a problem here. For example in the Cairo scenes sometimes Indy looks quite natural with brown hat and light beige shirt, but in some scenes his face, hat and shirt are just different shades of yellow brown. When Indy talks to Belloq in the bar after Marions apparent death, Belloqs suit and shirt change colors. Or the infamous flags. In the scene where Indy threatens Belloq with RPG they go from basically red to a nice orange. Look here: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4513/indy22zbd.png and here: http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/1797/indy23zbd.png.
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post #926 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 01:04 PM
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I'm just not seeing it. The BD looks better and more natural in all of those screencaps, flags notwithstanding. More gold than HDTV, yes, but not in a way that looks unnatural. To the contrary, really.
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post #927 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

I'm just not seeing it. The BD looks better and more natural in all of those screencaps, flags notwithstanding. More gold than HDTV, yes, but not in a way that looks unnatural. To the contrary, really.
If you knew the clothing in some of those shots was supposed to be white (in particular, the first link the in th post above yours), would you still think it's right?

The problem is, those white shirts now are cream colored.

While not a disaster, it's still not right.

As I've already said, though, I'll take this over copious amounts of DNR. At least a bit of yellow tone I can actually correct for. I actually already have one of my two custom presets on my system set to correct for "Orange and Teal" jobs. I guess I can use the other to "re-Indy" things by pulling out a bit of yellow and eeking back the whites a touch.

If this were a typical Universal DNR job, there would be no correcting for it. You can't add back detail.
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post #928 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

LOL Your posts are cracking me up. I'm guessing you're about 16 or 17?

Hi, How are you today? Goodbye!

Wait, let's see if you are any good at math. Indiana Jones in my early childhood, specifically this film? Hmmmmmmmm....

Also, those bluray caps look just fine. Some of you guys just cannot handle that you do not own these films. I mean, if this guy wants to put CGI backgrounds and humans to fill out a scene in this what are we to do? I hope Lucas is not reading this.

The color timing looks good to me. I think it adds to the film imo. People need to chill out. The HDTV version looks like crap filmed on video. These directors never had a chance to color time their films properly. Since it is their art I will go ahead and say okay. Indy really works with that color timing anyway. I really do want to rewatch the first one on Bluray. I think I saw a TV version but with that new timing and possibly much better audio I may have to see what is up.

I honestly don't know what you are trying to correct for? Are you that beholden to 80s cinema that you cannot move forward?
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post #929 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

If you knew the clothing in some of those shots was supposed to be white (in particular, the first link the in th post above yours), would you still think it's right?
The problem is, those white shirts now are cream colored.
While not a disaster, it's still not right.
As I've already said, though, I'll take this over copious amounts of DNR. At least a bit of yellow tone I can actually correct for. I actually already have one of my two custom presets on my system set to correct for "Orange and Teal" jobs. I guess I can use the other to "re-Indy" things by pulling out a bit of yellow and eeking back the whites a touch.
If this were a typical Universal DNR job, there would be no correcting for it. You can't add back detail.

Even assuming the cream falls outside what can be naturally explained via lighting (both on-set and projector bulb) and photochemical variations (which I would not assume, personally), the BD image still looks more natural than the HDTV image, if for nothing else than getting rid of the unnatural blue tinge everywhere else. I make no claims about "right" in that shot, but it's certainly better, closer to right. Oh well, opinions vary.
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post #930 of 1202 Old 09-19-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

Hi, How are you today? Goodbye!
Wait, let's see if you are any good at math. Indiana Jones in my early childhood, specifically this film? Hmmmmmmmm....
Also, those bluray caps look just fine. Some of you guys just cannot handle that you do not own these films. I mean, if this guy wants to put CGI backgrounds and humans to fill out a scene in this what are we to do? I hope Lucas is not reading this.
The color timing looks good to me. I think it adds to the film imo. People need to chill out. The HDTV version looks like crap filmed on video. These directors never had a chance to color time their films properly. Since it is their art I will go ahead and say okay. Indy really works with that color timing anyway. I really do want to rewatch the first one on Bluray. I think I saw a TV version but with that new timing and possibly much better audio I may have to see what is up.
I honestly don't know what you are trying to correct for? Are you that beholden to 80s cinema that you cannot move forward?

A lot of your perspectives remind me of some of the teenagers who write on these forums - who also sometimes pretend to be older. If I am wrong, then you're just trolling.

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