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post #1081 of 1202 Old 09-30-2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

That would seem to be the case, based on the "orange flag" concept (which I haven't seen yet, actually). My thinking is that a slight tint to a warmer shade wouldn't actually affect red that much.. it should still be red.
Do any of the screenshot pages have images of the flags? I'm curious to see how off it is.

I'm not really sure what you guys are so afraid of.... yes they pushed the colors quite obviously and yes the orangish red is there and no you cannot argue against it. I see people here are still in some sort of quasi denial? All you have to do is compare it to the other versions. I for one do see this as a better color timing but also think more subtlety could have been used. They should have been more subtle with the LotR too.

A warmer shade like this is obviously pushing less blue and more yellow. It looks that way to me anyway. I think it really fits Indy quite well for the most part but I can see people are attached to the old color and attack the flags as massacring the dream of being a perfect, realistic film nevermind the absurdity of all the other things that break immersion in this pretty dated film. I will take this version over the others and think it was the right move although I am not against releasing the older color timing but doubt it will ever happen.
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post #1082 of 1202 Old 10-01-2012, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by reanimator View Post

I also watched RAIDERS over the weekend, and am extremely pleased. Yes, I noticed the colors were warmer -- but nothing that "took me out" of the movie. Didn't see any "orange Nazi flags" as has been reported by others, all of the flags in my viewing were red. The new doc "On the Set with Raiders" was really nice, some eye opening moments for certain!

Looked red to me too on my calibrated DLP projector. Certainly more red than orange. This is why I always tell folks to judge a movie on your own system in motion and not by scrutinizing a couple of frames posted on a website. Yes screenshots are useful put using it as a barometer for a whole movie is not recommended without actually watching it yourself. We all have different tolerance levels.
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post #1083 of 1202 Old 10-01-2012, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

I'm not really sure what you guys are so afraid of.... yes they pushed the colors quite obviously and yes the orangish red is there and no you cannot argue against it. I see people here are still in some sort of quasi denial?
Did you really just use me as an example of someone "denying" something? I hadn't seen the pictures when I made that statement. That's not "denial", that's "lack of evidence". I'm not one to just take someone's word for it, and you'll notice in the post that you yourself quote, I specifically asked to see pictures. I have since seen the pictures. Things change. You should have kept reading.

Since my posts on the subject are apparently very vague, I will say the following, on record: The color temperature of the films has changed from its original theatrical presentation. I acknowledge this. I have not purchased the set, and I have not watched the films in person. Any statements I make about the set must be considered with those points in mind.

Will this effect my decision to not purchase the films in the long term? Probably not, for the same reason as LOTR, it's unlikely that the studio will ever correct the problem, if they even acknowledge that the problem exists in the first place. For the record, I haven't purchased LOTR yet, either, specifically because of the color issue (because that film is much more reliant on color than Raiders is).

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post #1084 of 1202 Old 10-01-2012, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Did you really just use me as an example of someone "denying" something? I hadn't seen the pictures when I made that statement. That's not "denial", that's "lack of evidence". I'm not one to just take someone's word for it, and you'll notice in the post that you yourself quote, I specifically asked to see pictures. I have since seen the pictures. Things change. You should have kept reading.
Since my posts on the subject are apparently very vague, I will say the following, on record: The color temperature of the films has changed from its original theatrical presentation. I acknowledge this. I have not purchased the set, and I have not watched the films in person. Any statements I make about the set must be considered with those points in mind.
Will this effect my decision to not purchase the films in the long term? Probably not, for the same reason as LOTR, it's unlikely that the studio will ever correct the problem, if they even acknowledge that the problem exists in the first place. For the record, I haven't purchased LOTR yet, either, specifically because of the color issue (because that film is much more reliant on color than Raiders is).

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post #1085 of 1202 Old 10-01-2012, 09:42 PM
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Totally screwed that edit up...

Welcome to Rivendell, Mister Anderson.
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post #1086 of 1202 Old 10-02-2012, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by reanimator View Post

I also watched RAIDERS over the weekend, and am extremely pleased. Yes, I noticed the colors were warmer -- but nothing that "took me out" of the movie. Didn't see any "orange Nazi flags" as has been reported by others, all of the flags in my viewing were red.

I was just coming to this thread to report the same. Watched Raiders last night and was specifically looking out for orange flags since all the hoopla about them, but I saw them as red on my display which is calibrated.

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post #1087 of 1202 Old 10-02-2012, 10:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

I was just coming to this thread to report the same. Watched Raiders last night and was specifically looking out for orange flags since all the hoopla about them, but I saw them as red on my display which is calibrated.

It's because most of the people doing the orange bellyaching hadn't seen the disc. Presumably those that finally have have been mysteriously in abesntia.
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post #1088 of 1202 Old 10-02-2012, 10:52 PM
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Raiders colors are beautiful, but still a bit too on the yellow/blown out side. Colors are still way better than the DVD though, except for the opening sequence which I think is way too yellow (you can just look at the jungle and it's not green....). The rest looks fantastic, especially in the sands.
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post #1089 of 1202 Old 10-03-2012, 12:01 AM
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Deja Vu to FOTR.

I think what many are experiencing is the ability of the human vision system to recalibrate in the absence of a reference object in the field of view.

When a screencap is viewed in a browser, there is generally reference white somewhere nearby, so any colour bias will be obvious. If this screencap were viewed on its own with a completely black background within the field of vision, I expect most would see those orangish flags as being more red.

Consequently, people seeing more yellow, than others, with the same source is quite consistent, depending on how each person is viewing the material. There is no point in accusing others of being colour blind, apologists or in denial because individual experiences are all very subjective.

Personally, I don't think it is a good idea for the colour timing of a movie to be altered, on the assumption that the public will be watching in a completely dark room and the perceived colours will adjust themselves, because some will be watching the movie in environments where reference white in the field of view may result in a very different effect. I consider it sloppy to not maintain reference white when adjusting those hues the director wants to accentuate, for effect, but it is probably easier to just push everything in one direction.
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post #1090 of 1202 Old 10-03-2012, 08:08 AM
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I've let the whole FotR issue slide, quite honestly. At least Jackson and Lesnie approved that finalized transfer, dim though it may be.

Doug Slocombe (the cinematographer of the three original Indy films), on the other hand, could not have had any involvement with these new blu-ray transfers since, from what I've heard, he lost the ability to see several years ago.* Looks like Steve couldn't have gotten him back for Indy 4 even if he'd wanted to.

Speaking of which, it's been mentioned several times in this thread that Raiders' new transfer looks like it's been Crystal Skullified. In one of the BTS featurettes for the fourth film, I remember Kaminski mentioning that he and Spielberg watched a print of Raiders in preparation for shooting, in order to get a good grasp on the look they were going for. Is it possible this print really did exhibit the colors we're seeing in this new transfer??? Something to think about.

*He's now a whopping 99 years of age. Last Crusade was, yes, his LAST movie before retiring.
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post #1091 of 1202 Old 10-03-2012, 07:55 PM
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So far I've only watched about half of Raiders (Indy is going into the Well of Souls with the snakes to get the Ark), but it's not as impressive a restoration as Jaws, and seems a bit too red/orange/yellow.
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post #1092 of 1202 Old 10-04-2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

Deja Vu to FOTR.

I think what many are experiencing is the ability of the human vision system to recalibrate in the absence of a reference object in the field of view.

When a screencap is viewed in a browser, there is generally reference white somewhere nearby, so any colour bias will be obvious. If this screencap were viewed on its own with a completely black background within the field of vision, I expect most would see those orangish flags as being more red.

Consequently, people seeing more yellow, than others, with the same source is quite consistent, depending on how each person is viewing the material. There is no point in accusing others of being colour blind, apologists or in denial because individual experiences are all very subjective.

Personally, I don't think it is a good idea for the colour timing of a movie to be altered, on the assumption that the public will be watching in a completely dark room and the perceived colours will adjust themselves, because some will be watching the movie in environments where reference white in the field of view may result in a very different effect. I consider it sloppy to not maintain reference white when adjusting those hues the director wants to accentuate, for effect, but it is probably easier to just push everything in one direction.

Agreed.

What really baffles me is that the original prints where already tweaked in post production for that same reason..... movies are viewed in completely dark theaters!! When was the last time a movie was shown with the lights on ?? eek.gif Never.

Dear studios, please restore and create high rez scans, do not apply DNR and leave the color timing alone, can't be any more simple. smile.gif

Oh yes, everyone remember do dim the lights wink.gif

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post #1093 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

The color temperature of the films has changed from its original theatrical presentation. I acknowledge this.

I'm glad that you acknowledge this. I'm weird in that I favor with proof? Evidence? I spose you will say look at the screenshots, they changed? No duh. A new approved transfer will often have any previous misgivings corrected.

Just food for thought. Something the naysayers just ignore. Every single person who has the set, a properly calibrated TV, and a brain, has reported the flags don't appear orange, and the color timing is not "pushed". Certainly not to the extend viewing blu-ray screenshots on RGB computer screens distort the accuracy and certainly objectivity.

All that talk about lack of white reference is stupid. The flags look orange-ish on my computer screen, and there is no white to reference on that site. So, pointless excuse. The simple fact is the blu-ray disc on a calibrated TV represents the true color timing, not what we see in these threads.
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post #1094 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 06:06 AM
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When I watched Raiders, I did notice a bit warmer color temp than I remembered with the DVDs, but it was slight. Most memorable scene of this was at the beginning when he's face to face with the idol and its glowing right in his face, which is understandable. The rest of the film looks right to me though.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/screenshot.php?movieid=3956&position=1

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post #1095 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick n Skullsue View Post

Every single person who has the set, a properly calibrated TV, and a brain, has reported the flags don't appear orange, and the color timing is not "pushed". Certainly not to the extend viewing blu-ray screenshots on RGB computer screens distort the accuracy and certainly objectivity.

That's not even close to the truth. Many members who had watched the disc reported the problems with the color timimg

I, for one, have watched Raiders in my calibrated display, and perceived that the brighteness boost did change the feel and ruined some of the illusison on the openening sequence and that the flags do indeed appear 'orangeish'. The whole color palette looked to much shifted to warmer tones.
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post #1096 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by IanD View Post

I think what many are experiencing is the ability of the human vision system to recalibrate in the absence of a reference object in the field of view.
I'll buy this.

One example: back when they filmed "Spaceballs", it was one of the earliest movies to use a large blue screen (the same type that was being used for compositing models pretty regularly, such as those on Star Wars) to create part of the set (the bridge on Dark Helmet's ship). Prior to that, most productions were still using black to extend sets or create composites for actors. Blue screens were still the domain of models (which used motion control cameras) at that point because crews and actors were afraid to work in front of them for too long.

At the time, there was a worry that looking at the blue screen could cause eye damage. The reason is, people staring at it for any length of time would see a yellow tint to everything when they looked away from the screen. As a result, the crew wore glasses with yellow lenses to "protect" their eyes.

Obviously, they later realized all they were experiencing was persistance of vision from their brains trying to "white balance" all that blue in their vision. The same thing can happen with any color. In the case of green screens productions use now, everything takes on a magenta tint when you look away from the screen after staring at it for a while. This isn't an issue for TV weather segments because the anchor frequently has his or her back to the screen and can see the rest of the studio to ensure his or her eyes don't adjust to the blue or green color.

The same sort of adaptation can happen with the hue on a TV show or a movie. After a while, our brains adjust the "white balance" of it without us realizing it.

I guess the real test would be to go directly to a scene where the flags are supposedly orange after making sure our eyes are back to normal, and view that scene fresh.


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post #1097 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 01:53 PM
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Slightly OT for a moment: Here's an article from BBC Online looking to explain some of Raiders' plot inconsistencies:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19704700

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post #1098 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 04:31 PM
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Well, based on the comparison between the DE DVD and the US Blu-Ray, someone definitely added orange to the tint of Raiders

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cID=1273#auswahl

There is nowhere near this kind of difference between the DVD vs. the Blu-Ray when it comes to Temple and Crusade.
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post #1099 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

Well, based on the comparison between the DE DVD and the US Blu-Ray, someone definitely added orange to the tint of Raiders.

And it looks much better now for it.

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post #1100 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

And it looks much better now for it.

I guess if you like brightness boosted so you can't see blue skies against white clouds, as well as the aforementioned shift to orange, which further unblues the sky.

On the other hand, the problem may be with my TV, as on my computer monitor set at 6500K, the colors look pretty good, though the overblown brightness still turns the sky too white in many instances - see, e.g., the scene near the end when the cars are going past the Washington Monument.

I recalibrated my TV, and that seems to have helped somewhat - still not as good as my computer monitor, though.
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post #1101 of 1202 Old 10-05-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

Well, based on the comparison between the DE DVD and the US Blu-Ray, someone definitely added orange to the tint of Raiders
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cID=1273#auswahl
There is nowhere near this kind of difference between the DVD vs. the Blu-Ray when it comes to Temple and Crusade.
How much of a difference should there be? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the detail.
The other two films are digitally sharpened. This one isn't. I consider that a good thing.
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post #1102 of 1202 Old 10-07-2012, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

I guess if you like brightness boosted so you can't see blue skies against white clouds, as well as the aforementioned shift to orange, which further unblues the sky.
On the other hand, the problem may be with my TV, as on my computer monitor set at 6500K, the colors look pretty good, though the overblown brightness still turns the sky too white in many instances - see, e.g., the scene near the end when the cars are going past the Washington Monument.
I recalibrated my TV, and that seems to have helped somewhat - still not as good as my computer monitor, though.

The brightness push does level out the contrast in comparison to the 2003 transfer, though. The highlights in some of the DVD shots are totally blown out - look at capsaholic grab #7 with Sallah and his kids - and the old image has a more contrasty look in general. That "flattening" of contrast on new transfers seems to be all the rage these days, I've lost count of the amount of new Blu-rays which look like this in comparison to their older counterparts.

People complain about certain details being lost, which is fair enough because the evidence is there for us to see, but how do we know that those older transfers didn't have their contrast boosted to provide more "pop"? Besides, Spielberg has spoken about how they've pulled more detail out of the shadows in the new edition, especially in the opening sequence, so the brightness increase we can take as having been director approved, for better or worse!

Still, having now seen Raiders on Blu I can't help but be a little disappointed with the colour. The IMAX version I saw was the new transfer, natch, with the yellow timing, but the blues looked far less tealy than they do on the BD. The Nazi flags are obviously orange tinted on the Blu-ray, and while they didn't exactly look blood red in IMAX they looked better than this.
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post #1103 of 1202 Old 10-07-2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

...the scene near the end when the cars are going past the Washington Monument.

That particular shot is a dupe, as it was literally lifted from the film, "The Hindenburg". So unless they went to Universal and asked for that one shot off of their OCN, it's always going to look a little out of place and should not be used to gauge the full quality of this release.
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post #1104 of 1202 Old 10-08-2012, 04:13 PM
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FYI-
Block buster is carrying this in store for rental.
Since it's a catalog release, the rental cost is only $.99 per disc.
$3 plus tax to rent the original trilogy.
YMMV

2014
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post #1105 of 1202 Old 10-08-2012, 11:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

The brightness push does level out the contrast in comparison to the 2003 transfer, though. The highlights in some of the DVD shots are totally blown out - look at capsaholic grab #7 with Sallah and his kids - and the old image has a more contrasty look in general. That "flattening" of contrast on new transfers seems to be all the rage these days, I've lost count of the amount of new Blu-rays which look like this in comparison to their older counterparts.
People complain about certain details being lost, which is fair enough because the evidence is there for us to see, but how do we know that those older transfers didn't have their contrast boosted to provide more "pop"? Besides, Spielberg has spoken about how they've pulled more detail out of the shadows in the new edition, especially in the opening sequence, so the brightness increase we can take as having been director approved, for better or worse!
Still, having now seen Raiders on Blu I can't help but be a little disappointed with the colour. The IMAX version I saw was the new transfer, natch, with the yellow timing, but the blues looked far less tealy than they do on the BD. The Nazi flags are obviously orange tinted on the Blu-ray, and while they didn't exactly look blood red in IMAX they looked better than this.

Then perhaps it's your monitor that's the problem? Because the flags look just like you describe the IMAX viewing on my Blu-ray.
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post #1106 of 1202 Old 10-10-2012, 09:37 AM
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One minor difference I noted in the stand alone previously released Crystal Skulls and the one included in the set is the THX logo. The stand alone has the sonic mushroom logo with its very impressive sound, while the one in the set has the standard THX logo and sound.
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post #1107 of 1202 Old 10-10-2012, 12:32 PM
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Then perhaps it's your monitor that's the problem? Because the flags look just like you describe the IMAX viewing on my Blu-ray.

A logical assumption, but all I can say is that I've tweaked and tweaked and tweaked it using DVE and AVS709 to get it as accurate as I can without going pro. If my display had that bad a bias in the colour then surely everything else I watch would suffer the same problem? Heck, the Nazi flags in Last Crusade look properly red.
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post #1108 of 1202 Old 10-10-2012, 07:41 PM
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Finally got back home to Los Angeles after an eight-week gig in the Seattle area and got my hands on this set o' discs. I haven't had a chance to watch any of 'em yet... but wow does that packaging suck. I had remembered some earlier comments about how the packaging was scratching some discs, so I did a test run on TEMPLE OF DOOM before attempting to extract RAIDERS (which is my all time favorite flick). Lucky I did the test... DOOM got all scratched up. I've never even SEEN a scratched blu-ray (since I don't rent much and I keep mine in mint condition--no kids and no lending). I wish I'd done my test run on CRYSTAL SKULL, but it's too late for that. I ended up tearing apart the cardboard packaging in order to get the rest of the discs out (including my precious RAIDERS) and they all came out scratch-free.

I'll probably only watch TEMPLE OF DOOM once or twice for the rest of my life... but I'm pissed that it got all scratched just by removing it from the package. Since I have no experience with scratched blu-rays, I have no idea how this will manifest in playback.

Worst. Packaging. Ever.
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post #1109 of 1202 Old 10-10-2012, 07:52 PM
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Studios are always trying to make their big releases look "special" by putting them in some crappy cardboard foldout. It's an insanely stupid practice that needs to stop. It looks non-uniform on the shelf, it's less durable, it's harder to get the discs out, and now it's even scratching them. Enough already.

Dillon: My men were in that chopper when it got hit! Hopper's orders were to go in and remove grain and the detail just disappeared.
Dutch: It didn't disappear. It was scrubbed alive!
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post #1110 of 1202 Old 10-10-2012, 08:19 PM
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Mine haven't scratched, and I've removed and inserted them several times, including when I first got the used set at the used book/CD store. Yes, it was used, and there wasn't a scratch on any of them from the previous owner.

Fingerprints, yes (and annoying); scratches, no.

Maybe you got a bad batch of cardboard.
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