I don't think Twilight Time is portraying themselves as a "quality release/restoration" seller. They are essentially selling bargain-bin titles, but trying to ensure it doesn't end up in the $5 wal-mart bin.
Looking at it logically, however, there is not a lot of money to be made. You have 3000 copies that you sell at $30. That's $90K. But now you have to subtract all of your costs. I'm sure Amazon and other stores get a decent chunk from that $30. There's also production costs, and employees. It wouldn't surprise me if they only made a 10-20K profit per movie (assuming they sell out). And perhaps that's being generous.
So when you look at it this way, the best thing they can do is take the master, encode it at high bit-rate, and be done. I'm sure most of the money goes into creating the artwork, advertising, and production costs.
There isn't a lot of money to be made, so in the end, there's not going to be a lot of effort put towards these films. It's unfortunate, but that's how it goes.
I like to keep my frustration directed towards Universal because even with big releases where there's a LOT of money to be made, they cheap out.
So I compared the DVD of Demetrius to the Twilight BD last night on my 10' wide 2:40 screen. No doubt the Twilight BD is an improvement in several areas; most noticeably resolution. The DVD is all but unwatchable at this screen size (at a seated distance of 1.5 screen width's). So I'm somewhat happy now knowing at least the BD is a definite improvement over the DVD - and that this is probably about as good as it will get for this title (in my lifetime).
I also took a peak at my "Journey" DVD. Pretty bad too (at this screen size). So hopefully this title (which is much more important to me) will be a HUGE improvement over the DVD (as was Mysterious).
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad /forum/post/21846696
I don't think Twilight Time is portraying themselves as a "quality release/restoration" seller. They are essentially selling bargain-bin titles, but trying to ensure it doesn't end up in the $5 wal-mart bin.
Twilight Time is aimed squarely at those who buy a few copies of their limited releases to sell on E-bay (to the many who have no idea who Twilight Time is) for $80.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV /forum/post/21846974
In a way, you're right...
Twilight Time is aimed squarely at those who buy a few copies of their limited releases to sell on E-bay (to the many who have no idea who Twilight Time is) for $80.
The only title I have seen this with was Fright Night, all other titles have not sold out. If you only buy from BM stores then yes you will miss these titles, but they are on Amazon. It's unfortunate that only people who seek these titles out on the internet will be aware of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeD /forum/post/21847649
The only title I have seen this with was Fright Night, all other titles have not sold out. If you only buy from BM stores then yes you will miss these titles, but they are on Amazon. It's unfortunate that only people who seek these titles out on the internet will be aware of them.
1) I couldn't get the listing for the Fright Night BD to come up on the first page, except for E-Bay listings back when it was still available. In other words, the secondary market was already topping the primary market before it even sold out.
2) They two different names. It's released by Twilight Time, but the website is Screen Archives. Therefore, eben if you search Twilight time, Screen Archives comes up with no mention of Twilight Time in the search description.
So, it's not just limited to people who seek them out on the internet. It's limited to those who know exactly where to look.
Screen Archives feels like the speakeasy of the home video world. I'm surprised you don't need a code word and a secret handshake to get into the site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyslammer /forum/post/21843695
The problem is, Twilight Time is charging essentially a premium price for the "product" which should lead a customer to believe the product has a certain level of quality. It's very much like the situation Hammer/Studio Canal in the UK are currently facing, where they are putting out Hammer's horror films to basically a small niche market at a fairly high cost but seem genuinely baffled by the criticism they are getting due to the abysmal quality of one of their first releases (Dracula Prince Of Darkness) that they claim to have done significant work to "restore."
From the consumer perspective, I don't necessarily disagree with you about the price issue. However, Twilight Time's business model is what it is. As stumlad said, there isn't a lot of money to be made here. Twilight Time needs to charge a certain amount in order to recoup their own expenses, and apparently they've decided that $30 is that price. If you don't find enough value in that (and I can understand that feeling), then you shouldn't buy their titles.
Quote:
In a nutshell, Twilight Time needs to build and protect their reputation not just by releasing titles that have some sort of legitimate appeal but more importantly to have the foresight and guts to pass on licensed titles from other studios that are sub-par quality that they can't invest the cost to improve.
This just goes back to my previous point: You can either have the movie or not have the movie. The reality of the situation is that a title like Demetrius and the Gladiators is simply not going to get a full and proper restoration. Either Twilight Time looks at that and decides to pass on it, or they release it as is. In either case, the movie's not getting the restoration you feel it deserves.
It's certainly your prerogative to refuse to buy their disc. However, other fans of the film may be more willing to overlook the transfer's shortcomings so long as it's still an improvement over previous formats, because they'd rather have the movie in a compromised condition than not have it at all. I don't think we should begrudge them that opportunity.
What's really needed here are informed reviews of each title, so that interested buyers can know what they're getting into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z /forum/post/21848034
From the consumer perspective, I don't necessarily disagree with you about the price issue. However, Twilight Time's business model is what it is. As stumlad said, there isn't a lot of money to be made here. Twilight Time needs to charge a certain amount in order to recoup their own expenses, and apparently they've decided that $30 is that price. If you don't find enough value in that (and I can understand that feeling), then you shouldn't buy their titles.
This just goes back to my previous point: You can either have the movie or not have the movie. The reality of the situation is that a title like Demetrius and the Gladiators is simply not going to get a full and proper restoration. Either Twilight Time looks at that and decides to pass on it, or they release it as is. In either case, the movie's not getting the restoration you feel it deserves.
It's certainly your prerogative to refuse to buy their disc. However, other fans of the film may be more willing to overlook the transfer's shortcomings so long as it's still an improvement over previous formats, because they'd rather have the movie in a compromised condition than not have it at all. I don't think we should begrudge them that opportunity.
What's really needed here are informed reviews of each title, so that interested buyers can know what they're getting into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z /forum/post/21848034
It's certainly your prerogative to refuse to buy their disc. However, other fans of the film may be more willing to overlook the transfer's shortcomings so long as it's still an improvement over previous formats, because they'd rather have the movie in a compromised condition than not have it at all. I don't think we should begrudge them that opportunity.
What's really needed here are informed reviews of each title, so that interested buyers can know what they're getting into.
So far I have 3 titles (Mysterious Island, Pal Joey and Picnic), and one more (Bell Book and Candle) on the way and have been very happy with the transfers so far, definitely an upgrade to the DVD's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad /forum/post/21846696
I don't think Twilight Time is portraying themselves as a "quality release/restoration" seller. They are essentially selling bargain-bin titles, but trying to ensure it doesn't end up in the $5 wal-mart bin.
The point, though... is you can't sell bargain bin titles for $30 if you don't put some work into the quality. If your $30 "limited edition" has poorer quality than the $7.99 bargain bin title, then Twilight Time is going to have a short history.
They are trying to buy niche movies that maybe would not get a larger release otherwise... ok, I'll accept that... but if they aren't going to accept criticism of their product then they shouldn't publish.
Again, the argument for Twilight Time from fans has been that they did a good job, produced a quality product, and released a movie that might not otherwise be available... so it was "worth" the $30 admission... but if the quality isn't there, then the long-term value isn't there for the collectors either... and Twilight Time will not survive the scrutiny they will get from the same fanboys that until now have been cheering for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 /forum/post/21848294
The point, though... is you can't sell bargain bin titles for $30 if you don't put some work into the quality. If your $30 "limited edition" has poorer quality than the $7.99 bargain bin title, then Twilight Time is going to have a short history.
They are trying to buy niche movies that maybe would not get a larger release otherwise... ok, I'll accept that... but if they aren't going to accept criticism of their product then they shouldn't publish.
Again, the argument for Twilight Time from fans has been that they did a good job, produced a quality product, and released a movie that might not otherwise be available... so it was "worth" the $30 admission... but if the quality isn't there, then the long-term value isn't there for the collectors either... and Twilight Time will not survive the scrutiny they will get from the same fanboys that until now have been cheering for them.
Twilight Time is not responsible for putting work into the quality. They license masters that have been created. In the case of Sony, those masters are created by a man who clearly knows what he's doing - Sony has a budget for doing these new transfers, and I don't think it's hard to figure out that they do them not necessarily for Blu-ray release, but for their HD channel. They don't feel there is an upside to Blu-ray for most stuff right now and that's the end of that story. So you will always see a quality transfer from Sony as has been proven with every single Sony title. Fox is a different story - and yes, Twilight Time will now have to assess each transfer and make a decision whether it's worth it to release. They made the decision with Demetrius and released it. For many, the transfer is perfectly fine and they love the film and are glad Twilight Time made the decision. Then there are the "fanboys" who think they know all about this stuff, and yes, these, what, ten people, twenty people, post relentlessly on these boards, decrying the foul, foul stench. So, if I were Twilight Time I simply would not release any title like that again, despite that most of the buyers are happy with it. So, the "fanboys" win and the film lover who is fine with the Demetrius transfer loses. Whether that's fair or not is up to each individual to assess. But the bottom line, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, is that you don't have to buy it. No one is holding a gun on anyone. Wait to hear how it looks and make a decision, understanding, of course, that the "fanboys" are a peculiar lot who occasionally do more harm than good. The price is the price. Either it's worth it or it isn't. All the whining in the world isn't going to change that, nor is posting the same thing over and over again.
For the TT price I will not buy unless it is at least equal to film quality which looks like Demetrius fails at, DVD crap I could care less about even if it's the home video standard'. Almost every BD will be better then DVD, no point worrying about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway /forum/post/21845888
Make no mistake - I like many of Criterion's Blu-rays and buy most. Their The Third Man was not up to snuff, IMO, and there were all sorts of excuses for it at the time. It was very noisy and overtly grainy. And there are others - not a huge number, but again, sometimes Criterion, like Twilight Time, can only use what they are given.
Overly grainy is not what I would call the problem with some Criterion BDs, too much EE would be more correct. Like TT, Criterion is also limited by what studios give them.
Maybe not... but if they want to stay in business, they need to choose better quality transfers to release in the future OR be prepared for more backlash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway /forum/post/21848681
... and yes, Twilight Time will now have to assess each transfer and make a decision whether it's worth it to release.
Exactly...though, arguably they should have already been doing this I would think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway /forum/post/21848681
For many, the transfer is perfectly fine and they love the film and are glad Twilight Time made the decision. Then there are the "fanboys" who think they know all about this stuff, and yes, these, what, ten people, twenty people, post relentlessly on these boards, decrying the foul, foul stench.
Be careful there... The "fanboys" are the only people who know Twilight Time even exists! Without the "fanboys" there would be nobody to buy their releases!
They are only making 3000 copies, pricing them at $30 premium pricing, and not selling them anywhere but Screen Archives and Amazon.
Without the "fanboys" they wouldn't have any customers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway /forum/post/21848681
So, if I were Twilight Time I simply would not release any title like that again, despite that most of the buyers are happy with it. So, the "fanboys" win and the film lover who is fine with the Demetrius transfer loses.
The only people who seem to know about Twilight Time are people who frequent forums like this... and it is forums like this that praised them for their Fright Night release, and forums like this panning the Demetrius release.
Why is it only acceptable to praise their good quality release but not pan a poor quality release?
I gather it is in fact the "film lovers" who are not happy with the quality of the release for the price they paid.
Which is why I pick and choose. If I want something in BR and it is not available from anyone else, except for Twilight Time, then there is no other choice. And that means, at the moment, either Screen Archives Entertainment or Amazon (where the vendor is SAE). As to the quality of the transfer, I have to take my chances, unless it is reviewed on something like blu-ray.com prior to purchase. So far, I have been more than satisfied with The Egyptian, Picnic, Pal Joey, and Swamp Water. Looking forward to Bell, Book, and Candle and Journey to the Center of the Earth. It would be quite amusing if Demetrius and the Gladiators actually sold out, given all the complaints about it and then became an actual collector's item.
Quote:
The only people who seem to know about Twilight Time are people who frequent forums like this... and it is forums like this that praised them for their Fright Night release, and forums like this panning the Demetrius release.
Why is it only acceptable to praise their good quality release but not pan a poor quality release?
I totally disagree that it's a "poor quality" release. The print they used isn't pristine, but that's all they had access to, and there is no fault to be found in the transfer itself. The movie, if you like it, will never look any better than this, and there is certainly more detail than the DVD. Yet the panning is coming from the screen-shot crew mostly, as expected, who haven't seen it nor compared it with the DVD. If that's not good enough for some folks, then so be it. Don't pay $30. But also realize this -- it's never going, ever, to look better than this release because apparently that was the only source material left.
IMO there is a world of difference between it and genuinely bad releases in the format like the Predator Ultimate edition, Universal's first Out of Africa, etc. Not even close.
Demetrius and the Gladiators is a poor release in terms of visual quality, there is simply no other way to characterize it. We now know why Fox allowed Twilight Time to release a movie they could have sold themselves, the master was in such poor shape that Fox knew the reviews were going to be brutal. The condition of the elements are in hideous condition and we know how it could look if given the proper restoration like The Robe received.
I'd still recommend it for hardcore fans but the average person is going to be very disappointed by the BD. There is simply no point in waiting for a mythical remastered edition, as it is never coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Stranger /forum/post/21858332
We now know why Fox allowed Twilight Time to release a movie they could have sold themselves, the master was in such poor shape that Fox knew the reviews were going to be brutal.
The potential market for this title is tiny. I don't think concern about potential reviews had the slightest thing to do with Fox's decision. I don't know if such concern would even register for the biggest titles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI /forum/post/21857707
I totally disagree that it's a "poor quality" release. The print they used isn't pristine, but that's all they had access to, and there is no fault to be found in the transfer itself. The movie, if you like it, will never look any better than this, and there is certainly more detail than the DVD. Yet the panning is coming from the screen-shot crew mostly, as expected, who haven't seen it nor compared it with the DVD. If that's not good enough for some folks, then so be it. Don't pay $30. But also realize this -- it's never going, ever, to look better than this release because apparently that was the only source material left.
IMO there is a world of difference between it and genuinely bad releases in the format like the Predator Ultimate edition, Universal's first Out of Africa, etc. Not even close.
This is the point - it's NOT just the ten or twenty people complaining - there are an equal number who think it's fine for them, and I'm sure there are even more who think it's fine who don't come anywhere near these types of boards. The gentleman to whom you're responding says that only people on these boards buy these discs - really? I don't think so because they've probably sold over a thousand of these and I'm not seeing thousands of separate people here - I'm seeing the same four or five people. And I'm sure you're right that half of the ten or twenty people complaining are basing their complaints not on the disc itself, but screen caps, which may or may not have anything to do with the reality of watching this transfer in motion.
Frankly, with what I'd read on these boards, I was expecting a complete and utter travesty and you know what - I didn't get a complete and utter travesty. I didn't get a fully-restored The Robe or The Egyptian, but I got a decent presentation. I sometimes wonder if anyone has seen a truly terrible Blu-ray - there really are true travesties out there, but one's tolerance is peculiar to the individual doing the tolerating - that's what I find so fascinating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway /forum/post/21858913
The gentleman to whom you're responding says that only people on these boards buy these discs - really? I don't think so because they've probably sold over a thousand of these and I'm not seeing thousands of separate people here - I'm seeing the same four or five people.
You can't walk into a retail store to buy them... If you didn't know to search for them, and how many people go to Amazon every day and search for random old movies to see if there is a Blu-ray release yet?
Twilight Time is not reaching the masses... they are only reaching a very small subset of the Blu-ray buying public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 /forum/post/21859062
So... who else is buying them?
You can't walk into a retail store to buy them... If you didn't know to search for them, and how many people go to Amazon every day and search for random old movies to see if there is a Blu-ray release yet?
And just who is the "Blu-Ray buying public" in your mind? Mostly just people who go to retail stores and buy discs? Those days -- if you haven't noticed already from the closing of places like Circuit City, Blockbuster, Best Buy dropping locations, etc. -- are coming to an end. So how else do you think people buy product? Believe it or not, I'm going to wager most BD-interested consumers are people find out about titles -- especially niche-driven ones like TT is catering to -- by going online. Buying online. Yes, they even go to Amazon and "search for random old movies" as you eloquently put it. I mean, it's 2012 here, isn't it? lol.
Limited edition soundtrack CDs have been in a market that's flourished for decades without "reaching the masses". And last I checked, just because the "Blu-Ray buying public" (whoever they are) had access to all the studio-released BD catalog titles, doesn't mean anyone is going to buy them. There's a reason TT and others are releasing these titles and not the studios. Flooding retail shelves with BD catalog product obviously wasn't a recipe for financial success or else they'd be doing it themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI /forum/post/21859109
I'm guessing plenty of people go to Amazon and do just that. Apparently that concept just escapes you?
And just who is the "Blu-Ray buying public" in your mind? Mostly just people who go to retail stores and buy discs? Those days -- if you haven't noticed already from the closing of places like Circuit City, Blockbuster, Best Buy dropping locations, etc. -- are coming to an end. So how else do you think people buy product? Believe it or not, I'm going to wager most BD-interested consumers are people find out about titles -- especially niche-driven ones like TT is catering to -- by going online. Buying online. Yes, they even go to Amazon and "search for random old movies" as you eloquently put it. I mean, it's 2012 here, isn't it? lol.
Limited edition soundtrack CDs have been in a market that's flourished for decades without "reaching the masses". And last I checked, just because the "Blu-Ray buying public" (whoever they are) had access to all the studio-released BD catalog titles, doesn't mean anyone is going to buy them. There's a reason TT and others are releasing these titles and not the studios. Flooding retail shelves with BD catalog product obviously wasn't a recipe for financial success or else they'd be doing it themselves.
Couldn't have said it better. It's amazing how tunnelvisioned people are - Twilight Time is not selling over a thousand copies of anything to people who frequent this or other boards. They are selling to people who are smart enough to find the titles, and people ARE smart enough. They would sell no more than they are selling if their titles were in Target or those kinds of stores because those kinds of shoppers don't by these kinds of titles. They want it for ten bucks and if it's ten bucks they'll wait till it's five bucks. The general public do NOT care about these titles and that is why the studios are not releasing stuff. When and if that changes you can bet studios will release - whether that EVER happens with Blu-ray is another story.
If Fox had released The Egyptian does anyone honestly think they would have sold ONE more copy than Twilight Time has (from what I understand, that one has sold around two thousand) - the answer is a big NO. People would be waiting until it hit the five-dollar bin, which means not only would Fox have NOT sold more, they would have sold them as loss leaders and lost every penny of their investment. Yes, they would have SHIPPED more and equally yes they would have gotten tons of returns. No matter how many times we all try to explain this, THAT is what is so appealing to the studios re licensing out titles - no risk, NO returns EVER, and a good advance and royalty. That equals no lose and no-brainer.
And for Twilight Time - no RETURNS ever. What sells never comes back, never hits the bargain bins. Oh, well. I've been in the limited edition soundtrack game for years and I know how it works. People find our titles, they buy our titles, and life goes on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway /forum/post/21859230
Twilight Time is not selling over a thousand copies of anything to people who frequent this or other boards. They are selling to people who are smart enough to find the titles, and people ARE smart enough. They would sell no more than they are selling if their titles were in Target...
And that's why you are posting on this board and not in the Blu-ray business.
Delusional is in the eye and mind of the beholder, I'm afraid. If you think the studios are raking in tons of money by having their titles end up in the five-dollar bin, I'm afraid you'll have to rethink what is delusional. And I think you should also perhaps learn about returns and then canvas the studios to see just how many they get on non-prime catalog titles - just do that and then come back and post your findings. Because they either get them returned or they let Target, et al, keep them and treat them as loss leaders. Why on earth do you think these titles are being licensed out? You have people who are actually in the business posting here, but amazingly people on this board know more. Thus, the Internet
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway /forum/post/21859898
And that's why you are posting on this board and not in the Blu-ray business.
Delusional is in the eye and mind of the beholder, I'm afraid. If you think the studios are raking in tons of money by having their titles end up in the five-dollar bin, I'm afraid you'll have to rethink what is delusional. And I think you should also perhaps learn about returns and then canvas the studios to see just how many they get on non-prime catalog titles - just do that and then come back and post your findings. Because they either get them returned or they let Target, et al, keep them and treat them as loss leaders. Why on earth do you think these titles are being licensed out? You have people who are actually in the business posting here, but amazingly people on this board know more. Thus, the Internet
It is still a certainty a movie like Demetrius and the Gladiators would have sold more units with mass retail distribution than the current distribution model that Twilight Time is using. I understand though that the economics for the large studios are not very favorable on marginal sellers because of the high fixed overhead costs and risk that the corporate buyers for Walmart and Target pass on carrying a selection at all in their stores. For that I applaud Twilight Time for stepping in where the studios have failed to serve the market.
But boards like this one are highly influential on these very niche releases that only true fans are willing to hunt down. For example, search on "Demetrius and the gladiators blu-ray" on Google. The third link on the first page of hits is Blu-ray.com's thread on the BD. The rest are all reviews of the disc itself. A neophyte in these matters would have a hard time bypassing the Internet discussion on the disc if they sought out the movie's Blu-ray through Google.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
AVS Forum
34M posts
1.5M members
Since 1999
A forum community dedicated to home theater owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about home audio/video, TVs, projectors, screens, receivers, speakers, projects, DIY’s, product reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!