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post #61 of 525 Old 03-30-2012, 01:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

The point, though... is you can't sell bargain bin titles for $30 if you don't put some work into the quality. If your $30 "limited edition" has poorer quality than the $7.99 bargain bin title, then Twilight Time is going to have a short history.

They are trying to buy niche movies that maybe would not get a larger release otherwise... ok, I'll accept that... but if they aren't going to accept criticism of their product then they shouldn't publish.

Again, the argument for Twilight Time from fans has been that they did a good job, produced a quality product, and released a movie that might not otherwise be available... so it was "worth" the $30 admission... but if the quality isn't there, then the long-term value isn't there for the collectors either... and Twilight Time will not survive the scrutiny they will get from the same fanboys that until now have been cheering for them.

Twilight Time is not responsible for putting work into the quality. They license masters that have been created. In the case of Sony, those masters are created by a man who clearly knows what he's doing - Sony has a budget for doing these new transfers, and I don't think it's hard to figure out that they do them not necessarily for Blu-ray release, but for their HD channel. They don't feel there is an upside to Blu-ray for most stuff right now and that's the end of that story. So you will always see a quality transfer from Sony as has been proven with every single Sony title. Fox is a different story - and yes, Twilight Time will now have to assess each transfer and make a decision whether it's worth it to release. They made the decision with Demetrius and released it. For many, the transfer is perfectly fine and they love the film and are glad Twilight Time made the decision. Then there are the "fanboys" who think they know all about this stuff, and yes, these, what, ten people, twenty people, post relentlessly on these boards, decrying the foul, foul stench. So, if I were Twilight Time I simply would not release any title like that again, despite that most of the buyers are happy with it. So, the "fanboys" win and the film lover who is fine with the Demetrius transfer loses. Whether that's fair or not is up to each individual to assess. But the bottom line, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, is that you don't have to buy it. No one is holding a gun on anyone. Wait to hear how it looks and make a decision, understanding, of course, that the "fanboys" are a peculiar lot who occasionally do more harm than good. The price is the price. Either it's worth it or it isn't. All the whining in the world isn't going to change that, nor is posting the same thing over and over again.

That's how I see it.
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post #62 of 525 Old 03-30-2012, 07:15 PM
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For the TT price I will not buy unless it is at least equal to film quality which looks like Demetrius fails at, DVD crap I could care less about even if it's the home video standard'. Almost every BD will be better then DVD, no point worrying about that.

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Make no mistake - I like many of Criterion's Blu-rays and buy most. Their The Third Man was not up to snuff, IMO, and there were all sorts of excuses for it at the time. It was very noisy and overtly grainy. And there are others - not a huge number, but again, sometimes Criterion, like Twilight Time, can only use what they are given.

Overly grainy is not what I would call the problem with some Criterion BDs, too much EE would be more correct. Like TT, Criterion is also limited by what studios give them.
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post #63 of 525 Old 03-30-2012, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by haineshisway View Post

Twilight Time is not responsible for putting work into the quality.

Maybe not... but if they want to stay in business, they need to choose better quality transfers to release in the future OR be prepared for more backlash.

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... and yes, Twilight Time will now have to assess each transfer and make a decision whether it's worth it to release.

Exactly...though, arguably they should have already been doing this I would think.

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For many, the transfer is perfectly fine and they love the film and are glad Twilight Time made the decision. Then there are the "fanboys" who think they know all about this stuff, and yes, these, what, ten people, twenty people, post relentlessly on these boards, decrying the foul, foul stench.

Be careful there... The "fanboys" are the only people who know Twilight Time even exists! Without the "fanboys" there would be nobody to buy their releases!

They are only making 3000 copies, pricing them at $30 premium pricing, and not selling them anywhere but Screen Archives and Amazon.

Without the "fanboys" they wouldn't have any customers.

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So, if I were Twilight Time I simply would not release any title like that again, despite that most of the buyers are happy with it. So, the "fanboys" win and the film lover who is fine with the Demetrius transfer loses.

The only people who seem to know about Twilight Time are people who frequent forums like this... and it is forums like this that praised them for their Fright Night release, and forums like this panning the Demetrius release.

Why is it only acceptable to praise their good quality release but not pan a poor quality release?

I gather it is in fact the "film lovers" who are not happy with the quality of the release for the price they paid.

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post #64 of 525 Old 03-31-2012, 12:52 AM
 
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$30 is a bit steep for a catalog title. 3D Blu Rays are debuting around $30 now, such as John Carter.
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post #65 of 525 Old 03-31-2012, 01:49 AM
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$30 is a bit steep for a catalog title. 3D Blu Rays are debuting around $30 now, such as John Carter.

Which is why I pick and choose. If I want something in BR and it is not available from anyone else, except for Twilight Time, then there is no other choice. And that means, at the moment, either Screen Archives Entertainment or Amazon (where the vendor is SAE). As to the quality of the transfer, I have to take my chances, unless it is reviewed on something like blu-ray.com prior to purchase. So far, I have been more than satisfied with The Egyptian, Picnic, Pal Joey, and Swamp Water. Looking forward to Bell, Book, and Candle and Journey to the Center of the Earth. It would be quite amusing if Demetrius and the Gladiators actually sold out, given all the complaints about it and then became an actual collector's item.
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post #66 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 04:38 AM
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post #67 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 07:41 AM
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The only people who seem to know about Twilight Time are people who frequent forums like this... and it is forums like this that praised them for their Fright Night release, and forums like this panning the Demetrius release.

Why is it only acceptable to praise their good quality release but not pan a poor quality release?

I totally disagree that it's a "poor quality" release. The print they used isn't pristine, but that's all they had access to, and there is no fault to be found in the transfer itself. The movie, if you like it, will never look any better than this, and there is certainly more detail than the DVD. Yet the panning is coming from the screen-shot crew mostly, as expected, who haven't seen it nor compared it with the DVD. If that's not good enough for some folks, then so be it. Don't pay $30. But also realize this -- it's never going, ever, to look better than this release because apparently that was the only source material left.

IMO there is a world of difference between it and genuinely bad releases in the format like the Predator Ultimate edition, Universal's first Out of Africa, etc. Not even close.
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post #68 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 10:23 AM
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Demetrius and the Gladiators is a poor release in terms of visual quality, there is simply no other way to characterize it. We now know why Fox allowed Twilight Time to release a movie they could have sold themselves, the master was in such poor shape that Fox knew the reviews were going to be brutal. The condition of the elements are in hideous condition and we know how it could look if given the proper restoration like The Robe received.

I'd still recommend it for hardcore fans but the average person is going to be very disappointed by the BD. There is simply no point in waiting for a mythical remastered edition, as it is never coming.


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post #69 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 10:35 AM
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We now know why Fox allowed Twilight Time to release a movie they could have sold themselves, the master was in such poor shape that Fox knew the reviews were going to be brutal.

The potential market for this title is tiny. I don't think concern about potential reviews had the slightest thing to do with Fox's decision. I don't know if such concern would even register for the biggest titles.

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post #70 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 12:29 PM
 
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I totally disagree that it's a "poor quality" release. The print they used isn't pristine, but that's all they had access to, and there is no fault to be found in the transfer itself. The movie, if you like it, will never look any better than this, and there is certainly more detail than the DVD. Yet the panning is coming from the screen-shot crew mostly, as expected, who haven't seen it nor compared it with the DVD. If that's not good enough for some folks, then so be it. Don't pay $30. But also realize this -- it's never going, ever, to look better than this release because apparently that was the only source material left.

IMO there is a world of difference between it and genuinely bad releases in the format like the Predator Ultimate edition, Universal's first Out of Africa, etc. Not even close.

This is the point - it's NOT just the ten or twenty people complaining - there are an equal number who think it's fine for them, and I'm sure there are even more who think it's fine who don't come anywhere near these types of boards. The gentleman to whom you're responding says that only people on these boards buy these discs - really? I don't think so because they've probably sold over a thousand of these and I'm not seeing thousands of separate people here - I'm seeing the same four or five people. And I'm sure you're right that half of the ten or twenty people complaining are basing their complaints not on the disc itself, but screen caps, which may or may not have anything to do with the reality of watching this transfer in motion.

Frankly, with what I'd read on these boards, I was expecting a complete and utter travesty and you know what - I didn't get a complete and utter travesty. I didn't get a fully-restored The Robe or The Egyptian, but I got a decent presentation. I sometimes wonder if anyone has seen a truly terrible Blu-ray - there really are true travesties out there, but one's tolerance is peculiar to the individual doing the tolerating - that's what I find so fascinating.
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The gentleman to whom you're responding says that only people on these boards buy these discs - really? I don't think so because they've probably sold over a thousand of these and I'm not seeing thousands of separate people here - I'm seeing the same four or five people.

So... who else is buying them?

You can't walk into a retail store to buy them... If you didn't know to search for them, and how many people go to Amazon every day and search for random old movies to see if there is a Blu-ray release yet?

Twilight Time is not reaching the masses... they are only reaching a very small subset of the Blu-ray buying public.

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So... who else is buying them?

You can't walk into a retail store to buy them... If you didn't know to search for them, and how many people go to Amazon every day and search for random old movies to see if there is a Blu-ray release yet?

I'm guessing plenty of people go to Amazon and do just that. Apparently that concept just escapes you?

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Twilight Time is not reaching the masses... they are only reaching a very small subset of the Blu-ray buying public.

And just who is the "Blu-Ray buying public" in your mind? Mostly just people who go to retail stores and buy discs? Those days -- if you haven't noticed already from the closing of places like Circuit City, Blockbuster, Best Buy dropping locations, etc. -- are coming to an end. So how else do you think people buy product? Believe it or not, I'm going to wager most BD-interested consumers are people find out about titles -- especially niche-driven ones like TT is catering to -- by going online. Buying online. Yes, they even go to Amazon and "search for random old movies" as you eloquently put it. I mean, it's 2012 here, isn't it? lol.

Limited edition soundtrack CDs have been in a market that's flourished for decades without "reaching the masses". And last I checked, just because the "Blu-Ray buying public" (whoever they are) had access to all the studio-released BD catalog titles, doesn't mean anyone is going to buy them. There's a reason TT and others are releasing these titles and not the studios. Flooding retail shelves with BD catalog product obviously wasn't a recipe for financial success or else they'd be doing it themselves.
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post #73 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 01:34 PM
 
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I'm guessing plenty of people go to Amazon and do just that. Apparently that concept just escapes you?



And just who is the "Blu-Ray buying public" in your mind? Mostly just people who go to retail stores and buy discs? Those days -- if you haven't noticed already from the closing of places like Circuit City, Blockbuster, Best Buy dropping locations, etc. -- are coming to an end. So how else do you think people buy product? Believe it or not, I'm going to wager most BD-interested consumers are people find out about titles -- especially niche-driven ones like TT is catering to -- by going online. Buying online. Yes, they even go to Amazon and "search for random old movies" as you eloquently put it. I mean, it's 2012 here, isn't it? lol.

Limited edition soundtrack CDs have been in a market that's flourished for decades without "reaching the masses". And last I checked, just because the "Blu-Ray buying public" (whoever they are) had access to all the studio-released BD catalog titles, doesn't mean anyone is going to buy them. There's a reason TT and others are releasing these titles and not the studios. Flooding retail shelves with BD catalog product obviously wasn't a recipe for financial success or else they'd be doing it themselves.

Couldn't have said it better. It's amazing how tunnelvisioned people are - Twilight Time is not selling over a thousand copies of anything to people who frequent this or other boards. They are selling to people who are smart enough to find the titles, and people ARE smart enough. They would sell no more than they are selling if their titles were in Target or those kinds of stores because those kinds of shoppers don't by these kinds of titles. They want it for ten bucks and if it's ten bucks they'll wait till it's five bucks. The general public do NOT care about these titles and that is why the studios are not releasing stuff. When and if that changes you can bet studios will release - whether that EVER happens with Blu-ray is another story.

If Fox had released The Egyptian does anyone honestly think they would have sold ONE more copy than Twilight Time has (from what I understand, that one has sold around two thousand) - the answer is a big NO. People would be waiting until it hit the five-dollar bin, which means not only would Fox have NOT sold more, they would have sold them as loss leaders and lost every penny of their investment. Yes, they would have SHIPPED more and equally yes they would have gotten tons of returns. No matter how many times we all try to explain this, THAT is what is so appealing to the studios re licensing out titles - no risk, NO returns EVER, and a good advance and royalty. That equals no lose and no-brainer.

And for Twilight Time - no RETURNS ever. What sells never comes back, never hits the bargain bins. Oh, well. I've been in the limited edition soundtrack game for years and I know how it works. People find our titles, they buy our titles, and life goes on.
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post #74 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 03:08 PM
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Twilight Time is not selling over a thousand copies of anything to people who frequent this or other boards. They are selling to people who are smart enough to find the titles, and people ARE smart enough. They would sell no more than they are selling if their titles were in Target...

That's easily one of the most ridiculous (if not downright delusional) notions I've ever read.
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post #75 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 04:28 PM
 
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That's easily one of the most ridiculous (if not downright delusional) notions I've ever read.

And that's why you are posting on this board and not in the Blu-ray business. Delusional is in the eye and mind of the beholder, I'm afraid. If you think the studios are raking in tons of money by having their titles end up in the five-dollar bin, I'm afraid you'll have to rethink what is delusional. And I think you should also perhaps learn about returns and then canvas the studios to see just how many they get on non-prime catalog titles - just do that and then come back and post your findings. Because they either get them returned or they let Target, et al, keep them and treat them as loss leaders. Why on earth do you think these titles are being licensed out? You have people who are actually in the business posting here, but amazingly people on this board know more. Thus, the Internet
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post #76 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 07:06 PM
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And that's why you are posting on this board and not in the Blu-ray business. Delusional is in the eye and mind of the beholder, I'm afraid. If you think the studios are raking in tons of money by having their titles end up in the five-dollar bin, I'm afraid you'll have to rethink what is delusional. And I think you should also perhaps learn about returns and then canvas the studios to see just how many they get on non-prime catalog titles - just do that and then come back and post your findings. Because they either get them returned or they let Target, et al, keep them and treat them as loss leaders. Why on earth do you think these titles are being licensed out? You have people who are actually in the business posting here, but amazingly people on this board know more. Thus, the Internet

It is still a certainty a movie like Demetrius and the Gladiators would have sold more units with mass retail distribution than the current distribution model that Twilight Time is using. I understand though that the economics for the large studios are not very favorable on marginal sellers because of the high fixed overhead costs and risk that the corporate buyers for Walmart and Target pass on carrying a selection at all in their stores. For that I applaud Twilight Time for stepping in where the studios have failed to serve the market.

But boards like this one are highly influential on these very niche releases that only true fans are willing to hunt down. For example, search on "Demetrius and the gladiators blu-ray" on Google. The third link on the first page of hits is Blu-ray.com's thread on the BD. The rest are all reviews of the disc itself. A neophyte in these matters would have a hard time bypassing the Internet discussion on the disc if they sought out the movie's Blu-ray through Google.


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post #77 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 10:16 PM
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risk that the corporate buyers for Walmart and Target pass on carrying a selection at all in their stores

I think that's the crux of it. I have a hard enough time finding titles like Raising Arizona or The Conversation in those stores. Demetrius and the Gladiators? Forget it!

I don't feel special...
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post #78 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 10:53 PM
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That's easily one of the most ridiculous (if not downright delusional) notions I've ever read.

That's what I was thinking.

For someone to brag that Twilight Time is selling to way more people than just those of us who frequent this forum, and simultaneously acknowledge that they are only selling "thousands"...

To be correct, by their own model they will never sell to more than 3000 customers any given title! And, with some people buying multiples... and only one title selling out to date... they are actually reaching far less than 3000 customers.

How many people are there in the world? Close to 7 billion I think... How many of those people have Blu-ray players?

Lets do this... IF there were only 1 million Blu-ray customers in the entire world... 3000 copies would be 0.3% of those potential customers!

Read that again...

Now figure that there are considerably more than 1 million Blu-ray customers in a world population of nearly 7 billion... and you'll see why Twilight Time is aiming pretty low at only trying for 3000 sales.

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post #79 of 525 Old 04-02-2012, 11:45 PM
 
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That's what I was thinking.

For someone to brag that Twilight Time is selling to way more people than just those of us who frequent this forum, and simultaneously acknowledge that they are only selling "thousands"...

To be correct, by their own model they will never sell to more than 3000 customers any given title! And, with some people buying multiples... and only one title selling out to date... they are actually reaching far less than 3000 customers.

How many people are there in the world? Close to 7 billion I think... How many of those people have Blu-ray players?

Lets do this... IF there were only 1 million Blu-ray customers in the entire world... 3000 copies would be 0.3% of those potential customers!

Read that again...

Now figure that there are considerably more than 1 million Blu-ray customers in a world population of nearly 7 billion... and you'll see why Twilight Time is aiming pretty low at only trying for 3000 sales.

And yet, deep catalog niche titles DO NOT SELL more than 3000 units, whether via Twilight Time or a major studio. You can ignore that simple fact and keep posting what you're posting, but it's not going to change the reality. I've seen the sales figures for the niche catalog stuff from the studios - you know, the ones that go to Walmart and Target and end up in the five-dollar bin as loss leaders. When all is said and done, many of them don't even crack a thousand. So you can trumpet these pointless figures about how many potential customers and Blu-ray player owners there are until the cows come home but it has no bearing on what they are actually purchasing - because what they most certainly are NOT purchasing are titles like Demetrius and other deep niche product - it doesn't matter WHO is releasing those titles.
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Any word on the price point for 'as good as it gets?' Or, is there a standard price for TT titles?
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Any word on the price point for 'as good as it gets?' Or, is there a standard price for TT titles?

They're all the same, $29.95
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That's easily one of the most ridiculous (if not downright delusional) notions I've ever read.

If it's so ridiculous, why is studio after studio basically shunning catalog releases in this format? Multiple years into the lifespan of the format, there ought to be MORE content coming at a faster pace, not less -- and yet that's not what we're seeing. Instead we're seeing titles from Twilight Time, or Image, or smaller labels licensing content from the majors, who are becoming less and less interested in catalog BD releases.

To me the only people being delusional here are the ones who don't understand how the business works.

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And yet, deep catalog niche titles DO NOT SELL more than 3000 units, whether via Twilight Time or a major studio. You can ignore that simple fact and keep posting what you're posting, but it's not going to change the reality. I've seen the sales figures for the niche catalog stuff from the studios - you know, the ones that go to Walmart and Target and end up in the five-dollar bin as loss leaders. When all is said and done, many of them don't even crack a thousand. So you can trumpet these pointless figures about how many potential customers and Blu-ray player owners there are until the cows come home but it has no bearing on what they are actually purchasing - because what they most certainly are NOT purchasing are titles like Demetrius and other deep niche product - it doesn't matter WHO is releasing those titles.

It's basically useless to point out the reality that a few in here just will not comprehend, no matter how many times you try to tell them.
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post #83 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

They're all the same, $29.95

There are some BR releases from TT that are $34.95, such as The Egyptians or Picnic @ $34.95.
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post #84 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 08:23 AM
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Just how many Walmart (king of low prices) shoppers are going to spring for $30 to $40 for a BR when a current film release is < $30? The answer may come very close to zero.
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post #85 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

Just how many Walmart (king of low prices) shoppers are going to spring for $30 to $40 for a BR when a current film release is < $30? The answer may come very close to zero.

The point is that there are countless BD catalog titles that retailed for $10 and under at Walmart, etc. -- and HAVEN'T sold.

I'm just surprised some are still not grasping the business model. People seem to forget that Warner, Fox, MGM, Sony, etc. all produce hundreds of $20 DVD-R niche-driven catalog titles. The arguments the people are making here against TT could easily be applied to all of those DVD-Rs too -- except again, they wouldn't recognize that business model works for them. Charging $10 more for a professionally produced Blu-Ray and an HD transfer is commensurate with the large studio DVD-R market that's been out there for years now...frankly I think it's a bargain compared to a $20 DVD-R. And yes, people are buying those online, and not at retail, simply by going to Amazon and searching for the title. Amazing isn't it?
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post #86 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 10:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

If it's so ridiculous, why is studio after studio basically shunning catalog releases in this format? Multiple years into the lifespan of the format, there ought to be MORE content coming at a faster pace, not less -- and yet that's not what we're seeing. Instead we're seeing titles from Twilight Time, or Image, or smaller labels licensing content from the majors, who are becoming less and less interested in catalog BD releases.

To me the only people being delusional here are the ones who don't understand how the business works.



It's basically useless to point out the reality that a few in here just will not comprehend, no matter how many times you try to tell them.

Yes, I'm beginning to understand just how useless
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post #87 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 11:27 AM
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I wonder if people touting retail releases of deep catalog titles realize how much is costs to get your product INTO a Wal-Mart or Target. The cost to maintain inventory in each store per week is too high for all but the best & newest titles. Believe me, WM and Target do not lose money when Blu-ray release tanks, only the vendor does. Hell, they haven't even paid for the goods when they return the 90% unsold to the vendor.

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post #88 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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I wonder if people touting retail releases of deep catalog titles realize how much is costs to get your product INTO a Wal-Mart or Target. The cost to maintain inventory in each store per week is too high for all but the best & newest titles. Believe me, WM and Target do not lose money when Blu-ray release tanks, only the vendor does. Hell, they haven't even paid for the goods when they return the 90% unsold to the vendor.

Oh, stop injecting reality into the discussion People will believe what they want to believe and no matter how much reality is introduced into the discussion, on they will go posting misinformation based on - well, based on what?

Thank goodness Twilight Time has come along and given true fans of these films that would not see release otherwise an option to purchase them. It may be a little higher-priced than some like, but in the end you own a movie you truly want to own.
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post #89 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

If it's so ridiculous, why is studio after studio basically shunning catalog releases in this format? Multiple years into the lifespan of the format, there ought to be MORE content coming at a faster pace, not less -- and yet that's not what we're seeing. Instead we're seeing titles from Twilight Time, or Image, or smaller labels licensing content from the majors, who are becoming less and less interested in catalog BD releases.

But Image and other labels are not TT. They're not doing the high-priced barebones limited edition thing. Only two studios are licensing to TT, and Fox so far has only licensed deep-catalog stuff that seems like a good fit for this model.
Please, let's not confuse "reality" with false dichotomies. Clearly there are other viable ways to distribute less-popular films.
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post #90 of 525 Old 04-03-2012, 04:50 PM
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It is more of a technical question in that how much actual work does Twilight Time have to do in terms of actual restoration of a film, that is licensed from a studio? Or is the restoration onto BR already there and TT has to manufacture the dvd or BR, package, and distribute it?

A second question: are Twilight Time releases only available via Screen Archives Entertainment? Is TT a creation of SAE?

The obvious economic assumption underneath all of this is that if the studio thought that it was worthwhile, then it would release the dvd or BR.
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