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post #1 of 94 Old 04-12-2012, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Purpose of thread:

The purpose of this thread is 2-fold:

1. To compile a list of the most film-like transfers on Blu-ray.
2. To answer the question: what specific ingredients or attributes make a Blu-ray transfer more film-like?

Recommendations for posting:

If you want to suggest a film or films... rather than posting a list, I recommend separating each film you want to discuss into a different post, to make it easier for others to quote/reference. Also try to include at least a brief description of the reasons why you believe the transfer is more film-like than others, and make sure the title of the film is displayed prominently somewhere in your post, preferably near the top. I won't be compiling a list of the suggestions made here, so if you want your recommendations to be noticed, it's in your interest to make sure the title of the film is noticeable (within reason) in your post. Also, if there is more than one edition or version of the title available on Blu-ray, please specify which version you're recommending.
 

No personal attacks allowed. Stay on topic.

Beyond that just about anything else goes. Comparisons and lively (but civil) debates are encouraged here. If you disagree with someone else's suggestion, by all means say so, and back up your viewpoint with an argument.

Have fun.

Related topics:

Film Reference and Analysis - the master discussion that inspired this thread.
Best Catalog Film Transfers? - companion discussion to this thread.


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post #2 of 94 Old 04-12-2012, 04:29 PM
 
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Hardware and the Ipcress file when you project the disc they have the feel of analogue film due to a less than stellar remaster that leaves all the scratches and burns there to be seen.
The problem with the digital mediums and grain management (not talking DNR, but matching grain)
Film is photo-chemical and prone to imperfections and changes in its very look.
Silver retention being "achieved" digitally for Se7en was a huge step backwards for me.
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post #3 of 94 Old 04-14-2012, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Hardware and the Ipcress file when you project the disc they have the feel of analogue film due to a less than stellar remaster that leaves all the scratches and burns there to be seen.
The problem with the digital mediums and grain management (not talking DNR, but matching grain)
Film is photo-chemical and prone to imperfections and changes in its very look.
Silver retention being "achieved" digitally for Se7en was a huge step backwards for me.

Thanks for your opinions on this dvdmike007. Not much love from anyone else on this so far though.

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post #4 of 94 Old 04-14-2012, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Question: Is this topic too close to the subject of FoxyMulders's original Film Reference and Analysis thread, and shall I ask a forum moderator to close this new thread down?

Please share your thoughts with me on this folks.

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post #5 of 94 Old 04-14-2012, 05:33 PM
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I think the other thread is all that's needed. The PQ tier thread covers how "pretty" blurays are, the other thread should cover the accuracy to their analog origins/transfer quality.
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post #6 of 94 Old 04-15-2012, 03:32 AM
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This thread seems redundant.

Maybe we can discuss how much processing is allowed and under which circumstances. I really like what Disney does with DNR and clean-up with their classic animated movies; I hope they one day do the same with the Ducktales cartoon as the DVDs have a very dirty look. Blade Runner also used DNR to good effect.
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post #7 of 94 Old 06-12-2012, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the add'l opinions on this. You both make good points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

I think the other thread is all that's needed. The PQ tier thread covers how "pretty" blurays are, the other thread should cover the accuracy to their analog origins/transfer quality.

I haven't had a chance to read Foxy's original thread all the way through yet, but as you mention above, his primary concern seems to be fidelity to the source, which is a bit different than what I'm looking for here.

In my experience, folks use the terms "film-like" and "filmic" a fair amount here, usually as a compliment or approbation. So I thought it would be interesting to hear what people actually mean by that.

To give a better idea what I mean by those terms, here's a list of what I would consider to be the most film-like Blu-rays I've seen so far...

  • Blazing Saddles - This has some high-frequency EE.
  • Excalibur
  • Eyes Wide Shut
  • Forbidden Planet
  • Heavy Metal
  • Jason & the Argonauts
  • Legend (Director's Cut) - IMO the Theatrical Version is a great example of how not to make a xfer appear film-like, with bad EE and lousy color, and I recommend avoiding it.
  • Logan's Run
  • Twister

What most of the above have in common is fairly noticeable grain and natural looking color/contrast, with little or no evidence of artificial tweaking/enhancement to either the color or detail.

It's probably also no coincidence that most of the above also made my most-watched list.

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post #8 of 94 Old 06-12-2012, 04:25 PM
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Saving Private Ryan gets my vote.

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post #9 of 94 Old 06-12-2012, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Thank you for the add'l opinions on this. You both make good points.
I haven't had a chance to read Foxy's original thread all the way through yet, but as you mention above, his primary concern seems to be fidelity to the source, which is a bit different than what I'm looking for here.
In my experience, folks use the terms "film-like" and "filmic" a fair amount here, usually as a compliment or approbation. So I thought it would be interesting to hear what people actually mean by that.
To give a better idea what I mean by those terms, here's a list of what I would consider to be the most film-like Blu-rays I've seen so far...
  • Blazing Saddles - This has some high-frequency EE.
  • Excalibur Just a mess
  • Eyes Wide Shut
  • Forbidden Planet
  • Heavy Metal
  • Jason & the Argonauts
  • Legend (Director's Cut) - IMO the Theatrical Version is a great example of how not to make a xfer appear film-like, with bad EE and lousy color, and I recommend avoiding it.
  • Logan's Run
  • Twister Huge DNR mess
What most of the above have in common is fairly noticeable grain and natural looking color/contrast, with little or no evidence of artificial tweaking/enhancement to either the color or detail.
It's probably also no coincidence that most of the above also made my most-watched list.
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post #10 of 94 Old 06-12-2012, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

  • Blazing Saddles - This has some high-frequency EE.
  • Excalibur
  • Eyes Wide Shut
  • Forbidden Planet
  • Heavy Metal
  • Jason & the Argonauts
  • Legend (Director's Cut) - IMO the Theatrical Version is a great example of how not to make a xfer appear film-like, with bad EE and lousy color, and I recommend avoiding it.
  • Logan's Run
  • Twister

Well at least you have excellent taste, not counting Legend that is.

As for other film-like transfers you might try (that I have):
Blade Runner Director's Cut, 2001(EE), Wizard of Oz, Midnight Cowboy, Secret of the NIMH, Seven Voyages of Sinbad, Road Warrior, Mad Max, James and the Giant Peach, African Queen, Bullet, Stargate (EE), Aliens, Dr No, Young Frankenstein, The Getaway (original), The Wrestler, Black Swan, Spaceballs, Nightmare on Elm Street, Kelly's Heroes, M, Tommy, Taxi, Night of the Hunter, Repulsion, Bigger then Life, Black Hawk Down (EE), Pale Rider, Rocky Horror Picture Show, Cool Hand Luke, Tron, Enemy at the Gate (EE), Poltergeist, Batman (1966), Day the Earth Stood Still (original), Fight Club, Christmas Vacation, Clockwork Orange, The Omen (original), Dirty Harry (first 4) and Omega Man.

I skipped over a lot I have that failed to be film-like or were shot on digital camera.
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post #11 of 94 Old 06-12-2012, 11:43 PM
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Twister is DNRed and lacks an authentic film look. Try instead "Taxi Driver" and most other new Sony catalogue titles. Many Criterion titles are film like. All discs from DI data where the DI was made to follow the film look closely are good examples as well. Digital restorations like "Ben Hur" are good examples.
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post #12 of 94 Old 06-13-2012, 03:43 AM
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If were are talking about authentic film look, Ben Hur suffers from orange & teal which is a digital look.
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post #13 of 94 Old 06-13-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

If were are talking about authentic film look, Ben Hur suffers from orange & teal which is a digital look.
oh, brother... rolleyes.gif
no, it isn't orange and teal.
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post #14 of 94 Old 06-13-2012, 09:37 AM
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Of the blu rays I own, Once Upon a Time in the West and Braveheart are two that stand out to me as having a very film-like appearance. Both of them have film grain, but not noise, at least to my eye.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R_STL View Post

Of the blu rays I own, Once Upon a Time in the West and Braveheart are two that stand out to me as having a very film-like appearance. Both of them have film grain, but not noise, at least to my eye.

Braveheart has been sharpened or so some claim
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post #16 of 94 Old 06-13-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

All discs from DI data where the DI was made to follow the film look closely are good examples as well.
lol, yes, the sad irony of home video is that digitally mastered films tend to look more like analog prints than the old video masters of movies that never entered the digital domain between filming and theaters... though perhaps more refined in terms of consistency.
For example, the recent Coen bros. films shot by Roger Deakins tend to have a nice filmy look, like True Grit, A Serious Man, NCFOM; a stark contrast to pre-digital efforts like Fargo and Big Lebowski, with their ugly sharpening/noise (cue the clueless reviewers heaping praise on how "gritty" Fargo looks), DNR, and the flat color tonality of old video.
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post #17 of 94 Old 06-13-2012, 01:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

lol, yes, the sad irony of home video is that digitally mastered films tend to look more like analog prints than the old video masters of movies that never entered the digital domain between filming and theaters... though perhaps more refined in terms of consistency.
For example, the recent Coen bros. films shot by Roger Deakins tend to have a nice filmy look, like True Grit, A Serious Man, NCFOM; a stark contrast to pre-digital efforts like Fargo and Big Lebowski, with their ugly sharpening/noise (cue the clueless reviewers heaping praise on how "gritty" Fargo looks), DNR, and the flat color tonality of old video.


Manipulation is manipulation, I for one hate this grain matching bs
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post #18 of 94 Old 06-13-2012, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

oh, brother... rolleyes.gif
no, it isn't orange and teal.

Easily shown:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/ben-hur.htm

Greenish skies, reds shift to orange and skin ranges from orange to peach and other sites show the same color scheme, it's orange & teal through and through if one bothers to look. The closest match to SD versions is the yellow tinted and brightness blasted one. And no it was not 'shot that way', the effect can only be achieved with digital color tools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

lol, yes, the sad irony of home video is that digitally mastered films tend to look more like analog prints than the old video masters of movies that never entered the digital domain between filming and theaters... though perhaps more refined in terms of consistency.
For example, the recent Coen bros. films shot by Roger Deakins tend to have a nice filmy look, like True Grit, A Serious Man, NCFOM; a stark contrast to pre-digital efforts like Fargo and Big Lebowski, with their ugly sharpening/noise (cue the clueless reviewers heaping praise on how "gritty" Fargo looks), DNR, and the flat color tonality of old video.

I assume you mean pre-DI, BL was 'fixed' with digial software not that your DI theory expalins Universal's Burn After Reading which has strong sharpening making eveyone's skin resemble sand paper, even with DI they still can manage to mess things up.
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post #19 of 94 Old 06-13-2012, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Easily shown:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/ben-hur.htm
Greenish skies, reds shift to orange and skin ranges from orange to peach and other sites show the same color scheme, it's orange & teal through and through if one bothers to look. The closest match to SD versions is the yellow tinted and brightness blasted one. And no it was not 'shot that way', the effect can only be achieved with digital color tools.
Thanks, I don't think I could ask for a finer example of the lunatic orange-and-teal paranoia that has gripped these forums in recent years. Yes, the colors are slightly different from past versions, as they usually are. There is absolutely no undue orange and teal there at all. If you think anything there looks like this http://images.static-bluray.com/reviews/4443_11_1080p.jpg you're on crack. I've seen the new Ben Hur restoration in 4K DCP as well, it wasn't orange and teal there either.
At any rate, considering the film is badly faded, digital color tools are required to get anything that looks acceptable from the OCN.
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post #20 of 94 Old 06-14-2012, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Thanks, I don't think I could ask for a finer example of the lunatic orange-and-teal paranoia that has gripped these forums in recent years. Yes, the colors are slightly different from past versions, as they usually are. There is absolutely no undue orange and teal there at all. If you think anything there looks like this http://images.static-bluray.com/reviews/4443_11_1080p.jpg you're on crack. I've seen the new Ben Hur restoration in 4K DCP as well, it wasn't orange and teal there either.
At any rate, considering the film is badly faded, digital color tools are required to get anything that looks acceptable from the OCN.

Indeed the fading is probably the main reason for Ben Hur looking like it does, which is a bit strange with regard to colorimetry.
While I do not think that the results achieved couldn't have been better I'd say there is no sign that anybody was going for a teal and orange look.
King of Kings from Warner is extremely good with regard to natural looking colors by the way and I suspect that Ben Hur might have looked very similar had the negative not faded.
I wonder if these were color timed in the same or in different facilities.

As you have seen both the Blu-ray and the 4k projection of Ben Hur please let us know your impressions - in which areas did you see improvements, was the presentation up to snuff etc...
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post #21 of 94 Old 06-14-2012, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

Indeed the fading is probably the main reason for Ben Hur looking like it does, which is a bit strange with regard to colorimetry.
While I do not think that the results achieved couldn't have been better I'd say there is no sign that anybody was going for a teal and orange look.

Oh yes the film has faded since the last master was done a few years ago. Now we know the reason any film has orange & teal, the film has 'faded'. Next up the pancake makeup excuse.
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post #22 of 94 Old 06-14-2012, 02:19 AM
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post #23 of 94 Old 06-14-2012, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Oh yes the film has faded since the last master was done a few years ago. Now we know the reason any film has orange & teal, the film has 'faded'. Next up the pancake makeup excuse.

Read back in my post history and you will find that I criticized the new version of Il Gattopardo for the look you apparently want to find in every title that has colors you don't like, but it isn't always that simple.

If you are really interested in the matter look up Eastman 5248 negative fading. My guess is that the negative due to a higher amount of fading (that might very well have gotten much worse in a few short years) might have benefitted from a different color correction than the one that has occured, but without any background info it is all speculation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Easily shown:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/ben-hur.htm
Greenish skies, reds shift to orange and skin ranges from orange to peach and other sites show the same color scheme, it's orange & teal through and through if one bothers to look. The closest match to SD versions is the yellow tinted and brightness blasted one. And no it was not 'shot that way', the effect can only be achieved with digital color tools.
I assume you mean pre-DI, BL was 'fixed' with digial software not that your DI theory expalins Universal's Burn After Reading which has strong shamaking eveyone's skin resemble sand paper, even with DI they still can manage to mess things up.

Even with Di? They are the worst thing to happen to modern movies, everything looks the same and the Dp is now pointless as they can change anything after the fact
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post #25 of 94 Old 06-14-2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Even with Di? They are the worst thing to happen to modern movies, everything looks the same and the Dp is now pointless as they can change anything after the fact
I don't see how more flexibility is ever a bad thing. That people choose to abuse the technology is not a problem with technology, but with hack filmmakers. Photochemical timing only precludes such abuse by its limitations, that's not a good thing IMO. And the DP is pointless? A fancy digital camera doesn't make you a photographer, a DI suite does not make you a cinematographer. What it does is take some technical burdens off the people who get paid to be creative, not deal with technical issues.
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post #26 of 94 Old 06-17-2012, 11:32 AM
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Star Trek (2009) to my eyes looks pretty film-like to me....

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post #28 of 94 Old 06-19-2012, 03:11 PM
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post #29 of 94 Old 06-19-2012, 06:45 PM
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This isn't definitive by any means but I certainly think Collateral has a very film-like look to it. Plus it's a great movie.
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post #30 of 94 Old 06-20-2012, 02:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

This isn't definitive by any means but I certainly think Collateral has a very film-like look to it. Plus it's a great movie.

Oddsas bar a few shots it was all digital
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