Blu-rays Will Now Have Two Unskippable Warnings - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 04:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

The discs are encrypted. This pretty much eliminates "casual" piracy, like copying a cassette for your friend or something. The people jumping through hoops to rip them are perfectly aware they're breaking copyright laws.

Maybe, maybe not. I doubt it's nearly as black and white as you seem to think it is. Hell, we can't even get everyone posting in this thread to agree that ripping a disc constitutes "breaking copyright laws."

Regardless, the point stands - the message is not just about downloading a pirated copy, it's also about trying to discourage others from ripping and posting the disc after they've made the purchase or rental.
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post #92 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Regardless, the point stands - the message is not just about downloading a pirated copy, it's also about trying to discourage others from ripping and posting the disc after they've made the purchase or rental.

Funny, I've been seeing those warnings for decades and yet I can still find just about any music, video game, or movie online. How many years does a strategy have to utterly fail until we can admit it doesn't work?
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post #93 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Funny, I've been seeing those warnings for decades and yet I can still find just about any music, video game, or movie online. How many years does a strategy have to utterly fail until we can admit it doesn't work?

I never said anything about the effectiveness of the message. My comment was about the point/purpose of the message. Was that not clear?
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post #94 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

I never said anything about the effectiveness of the message. My comment was about the point/purpose of the message. Was that not clear?

No one's arguing the point itself, they're arguing the message. There's a difference.

We all understand perfectly well why the message exists. We just don't understand the reason for it to be where it is, because there isn't one.

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post #95 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

No one's arguing the point itself, they're arguing the message. There's a difference.

This is what you said:
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Absolutely none of which changes the fact that the unskippable messages on the Blu-ray discs are only seen by the people who are not doing any of the things the messages are referring to.

I pointed out, clearly and concisely, why that is simpy false. The only way your claim would be true is if none of the people who purchased a BD ripped and posted the content online for others to download.
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We all understand perfectly well why the message exists. We just don't understand the reason for it to be where it is, because there isn't one.

It is where it is because few - if any - people in their right mind would choose to watch an anti-piracy message on their own from a disc menu. It's the same reason they put the FBI warning where they do.

I would think that would be pretty obvious...


Now, none of my posts should be taken as any sort of support for this move, as I certainly don't think it's a positive from my point of view as a consumer.
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post #96 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

No one's arguing the point itself, they're arguing the message. There's a difference.

We all understand perfectly well why the message exists. We just don't understand the reason for it to be where it is, because there isn't one.

Correct. It's pointless to lecture legitimate purchasers of the discs. It fact, it's counterproductive to do so. This is the point lost on the MPAA and the studios that comprise it.

As 42041 (now there's a memorable user name) pointed out, we've seen these warnings for three decades now. Just how effective are they? Consider the one group of persons the studios get revenues from outside of theater tickets. That's the legitimate purchasers (and renters) of retail discs. Of all the people they don't want to tick off, it's them. The only real effect of these unskippable warnings is to piss off those people. That's just dumb and it's bad business.

Congratulations, MPAA. You've just taken more money out of your own pockets in the form of actual lost sales, not the ridiculous "copyright math" that you use to extrapolate lost sales of discs that you would never sell to pirates anyway.
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post #97 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

The only way your claim would be true is if none of the people who purchased a BD ripped and posted the content online for others to download.

Okay, wait a second.. you think that the BD Rips available online actually come from store-bought discs? That someone BUYS them just to rip them? Out of touch much?

Even if such a thing were true (and it isn't), it still doesn't change the pointlessness of the "message" that they're sending. The people doing this don't care, period. They know it's illegal and they're doing it anyway. Telling them it's wrong isn't going to make them suddenly stop doing it.

In fact, it's worse than pointless.. pirates, even the ones who actually rip the discs, never see these messages because they never actually put the thing into a player of any kind. So, quite literally, the only the people who actually see the messages at all are the people that are paying money for the privilege.

Yeah, they're educating people, alright. The opposite of what they want. The more they rant about piracy, the more the ignorant masses are going to wake up to the fact that they really can get these things for free online. The end result is probably going to be more piracy, not less.

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post #98 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Okay, wait a second.. you think that the BD Rips available online actually come from store-bought discs? That someone BUYS them just to rip them? Out of touch much?

No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. While rips of screeners and other advance-release discs are a big percentage of bootlegs of legitimate titles, you only have to look in places like Hong Kong, Russia, etc to find (almost indistinguishable) knock-offs of consumer copies of titles to realize that's where the serious money is being lost to home entertainment and software piracy.

An example. While not a Blu-ray (or even home video), the Beatles Stereo Box set from a few years back is probably one of the most successfully pirated and profitable bootleg of a legitimate release in recent memory. It was (initially) pirated from a consumer copy.
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post #99 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 06:07 PM
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"Consumer copy" does not equal "store bought". Yes, they're final retail copies, but they're not purchased in store, they're stolen from the manufacturer or distributor.

I'm talking about someone walking into Best Buy, after the official release, spending money on a disc, ripping it, then putting it online. Those people don't exist.

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post #100 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Okay, wait a second.. you think that the BD Rips available online actually come from store-bought discs?

Some do. Absolutely.
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

That someone BUYS them just to rip them? Out of touch much?

That's an awfully big leap. I never claimed someone bought a title just to rip it, so how about laying off the weak strawmen, huh? I'm claiming that there are people who have purchased discs and have subsequently ripped and shared the data online. This has clearly happened, whether you're able to admit it or not.
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I'm talking about someone walking into Best Buy, after the official release, spending money on a disc, ripping it, then putting it online. Those people don't exist.

Yeah... they really do. You may not be aware of them, but they do exist. You stating definitively that they don't in no way changes that fact.
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post #101 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 07:00 PM
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And they would account for what... maybe 0.01% of available online downloads? Those are not the people the studios need to worry about, and it still doesn't change the overall point I'm trying to make. That the unskippable messages on the Blu-ray discs are worse than useless and serve only negative purposes toward the goal the studios claim to be trying to reach.

That is the point of the discussion, after all, not whether piracy is bad.

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post #102 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 07:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

And they would account for what... maybe 0.01% of available online downloads? Those are not the people the studios need to worry about, and it still doesn't change the overall point I'm trying to make.

That's weird. I'm reasonably certain I read somewhere that I was out of touch and those people didn't exist. Huh.


And now, back to the regularly scheduled bitching, moaning and blowing the situation way out of proportion over a ten second warning, already in progress...
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post #103 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

That's weird. I'm reasonably certain I read somewhere that I was out of touch and those people didn't exist. Huh.

Maybe a Twilight Time release will get uploaded by some guy who bought it. Those people are not the ones the MPAA desperately wants to nab. The Star Wars blus were online weeks before street date. Same for the Lord of the Rings, Avatar (which had fresh BD+ protection and was ripped before AnyDVD updated their software to deal with it... so much for amateur work), etc. The piracy groups have inside sources.
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post #104 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Funny, I've been seeing those warnings for decades and yet I can still find just about any music, video game, or movie online. How many years does a strategy have to utterly fail until we can admit it doesn't work?

Unfortunately, though, that applies to almost every law. I mean... people still get killed and robbed, but we have had laws against doing both for pretty much forever in modern society... so, you wouldn't argue that the laws are useless, right?

Laws serve multiple purposes... In part they are to deter people, but the other part is to permit agreed-upon punishment for people who break those laws.

As for the warnings on the discs... that serves the same purpose as publishing the laws. With the copyright law right there on the disc, it is difficult for any potential pirate to be able to make a claim that they "didn't know" it was against the law. Without that warning, you can bet someone somewhere would claim they didn't know.... much like some in this very thread didn't seem to know, for example.

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Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

Correct. It's pointless to lecture legitimate purchasers of the discs. It fact, it's counterproductive to do so. This is the point lost on the MPAA and the studios that comprise it.

Well... who would you lecture? Lecturing the criminal is even more useless, no? I mean... do you lecture the guy coming out of the bank with the sack of money and a ski mask about the illegality of robbing banks?

When is the best time to educate people on the dangers of drinking and driving... when they are sober and therefore not in violation of the law? OR when they are already drinking to the point where their comprehension skills are hindered?

Of course you lecture the people who and when they are not violating the law. That's the only people who will listen! Lecturing the guy who already decided to steal the movie does zero good.

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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Maybe a Twilight Time release will get uploaded by some guy who bought it. Those people are not the ones the MPAA desperately wants to nab. The Star Wars blus were online weeks before street date. Same for the Lord of the Rings, Avatar (which had fresh BD+ protection and was ripped before AnyDVD updated their software to deal with it... so much for amateur work), etc. The piracy groups have inside sources.

Exactly. Now, I'm sure Twilight Time would argue (and correctly I might add) that they absolutely care when someone steals one of their movies because they have small business model and many of their movies aren't selling out their limited run so it directly could affect their bottom line if someone steals a copy rather than pay $30 for a legitimate one!

But ultimately the "big boys" only get involved when something major is stolen. Also the point made where people get copies illegally before street date... which usually means there is an insider (either the movie company OR the disc-manufacturing plant) taking the "golden master" and copying it.

Some pirates are in it for bootlegging and making money... others use the "stick it to the man" approach when giving things away... and both do harm to the system.

It's really the same thing as those embedded devices in movies and CDs that the retail stores have to deactivate when you buy so the alarm doesn't beep...or those god-awful contraptions some stores lock their movies and CDs inside that have to be removed with a special key by the cashier. Those too are necessary evils because people were stealing physical copies from the stores.

IF we move to more and more online (especially digital copy) distribution... there will be less retail theft of movies and music and far more stolen copies.

I hear all the time about how stealing a digital copy doesn't harm a company because either: the person wasn't going to buy anyway, or it doesn't prevent sales to others because it isn't physical inventory... but that completely ignores the other aspect of theft, which is... if you don't pay, you aren't entitled.

If I sneak into a movie theater, it doesn't stop them from selling all the tickets (if I stand and don't take a paying customer seat)... but I'm getting to see a movie that I am NOT entitled to see because I didn't pay. Whether it affects the other sales or not is irrelevant.

And all of that leads back to... the forced non-skippable stuff on our Blu-rays... and yes, it means we pay and get annoyed by them... but the blame should be at the feet of all the people who have been ripping and stealing that is leaving the studios scrambling to figure out ways to deter and educate people about not stealing their product.

Another interesting thing about movie and music theft... Most of the theft is by people who could afford to buy them. Homeless and hungry and poor people tend to steal food and clothes and things they need to live... the movie and music thefts tend to be from middle and upper class thieves, so there's not any way to defend it really.

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post #105 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 08:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Maybe a Twilight Time release will get uploaded by some guy who bought it. Those people are not the ones the MPAA desperately wants to nab. The Star Wars blus were online weeks before street date. Same for the Lord of the Rings, Avatar (which had fresh BD+ protection and was ripped before AnyDVD updated their software to deal with it... so much for amateur work), etc. The piracy groups have inside sources.

Of course, but since when did it become about who the MPAA "desperately wants to nab?" The anti-piracy warning being discussed certainly isn't targeting "inside sources" or foreign pirates on the MPAA's Most Wanted list. Clearly they're also concerned about consumers sharing their movies online (and downloading movies from others,) otherwise, why would they have added this new warning screen?

Oh, and a +1 to much of HDMe2's post above this one...
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post #106 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 08:07 PM
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I used to download movies back when I was in the service. Regardless, ill admit downloading a movie is stealing. I wouldn't even try to define it as anything else.

Today I spend a lot of my paycheck at the theaters and on blurays + hard drives (makemkv ftw)

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #107 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Of course, but since when did it become about who the MPAA "desperately wants to nab?" The anti-piracy warning being discussed certainly isn't targeting "inside sources" or foreign pirates on the MPAA's Most Wanted list. Clearly they're also concerned about consumers sharing their movies online (and downloading movies from others,) otherwise, why would they have added this new warning screen?

I never said their behavior was rational or made a lick of sense. You really think people pirate stuff because they haven't seen the FBI warnings? It's a pointless kneejerk reaction to a problem that's too big for them to fight; it will accomplish nothing except annoy paying customers. The only effective way to reduce piracy is making it more trouble than it's worth, and for pirates FBI warning screens are no trouble at all.

I can't even imagine how many hours of my life I've spent clicking past all that trash at the beginning of every blu-ray and DVD I've seen.
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post #108 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 09:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

I never said their behavior was rational or made a lick of sense.

Just because it doesn't make any sense to you doesn't mean that their behavior is irrational or pointless. Perhaps you're not privy to the same data they are.

Clearly they're concerned about piracy on a consumer level. This isn't new. For several years now, there have been "PSA" type anti-piracy ads that have run on both TV and at the start of BD and DVDs, and they clearly show kids and young adults sharing and downloading videos on their computers.

Maybe they're trying to get through to the next generation of movie buyers before they get caught up in the whole "it's a victimless crime" rationalization/self-deception BS. Maybe they're trying to reach those who are on the fence about downloading/sharing movies - those who know people who do it (and could therefore be walked through it fairly simply) but are hesitant to do it for whatever reason. Hell, maybe they're hoping they'll guilt-trip a couple of people into resisting the urge to steal (and/or distribute) the movies they've worked so hard on. Or maybe you're right - maybe it's just a pointless kneejerk reaction to a problem they can't solve.

Whatever the reason, at the end of the day, it's an extra ten seconds. Ten. Seconds.

If that's really all you have to be outraged over, consider yourself lucky. And if you're really that upset, send the studios letters and vote with your wallet.

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I can't even imagine how many hours of my life I've spent clicking past all that trash at the beginning of every blu-ray and DVD I've seen.

You poor thing. If it makes you feel any better, I hear Lifetime's interested in purchasing the rights to your story for one of their upcoming original movies.
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post #109 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

I mean... people still get killed and robbed, but we have had laws against doing both for pretty much forever in modern society... so, you wouldn't argue that the laws are useless, right?

We're not talking about laws; we're talking about inappropriately-positioned notices about those laws. I don't think anyone here is arguing against anti-piracy laws.

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With the copyright law right there on the disc, it is difficult for any potential pirate to be able to make a claim that they "didn't know" it was against the law. Without that warning, you can bet someone somewhere would claim they didn't know...

It doesn't make a difference- ignorance of the law is not a legitimate defense. Try stealing an orange from a grocery store and see how far you get when you point out to the nice gentleman that you didn't see an FBI warning posted, so you assumed they were free.

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Well... who would you lecture? Lecturing the criminal is even more useless, no? I mean... do you lecture the guy coming out of the bank with the sack of money and a ski mask about the illegality of robbing banks?

The point is, lecturing anyone is useless.

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Lecturing the guy who already decided to steal the movie does zero good.

Lecturing the guy who already decided not to steal the movie does zero good, as well, so you may as well be lecturing the cat.

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It's really the same thing as those embedded devices in movies and CDs that the retail stores have to deactivate when you buy so the alarm doesn't beep...or those god-awful contraptions some stores lock their movies and CDs inside that have to be removed with a special key by the cashier. Those too are necessary evils because people were stealing physical copies from the stores.

It's not the same thing, as an actual measurable, practical benefit can be discerned with the use of those physical devices. If you can show me some indication that these video warnings have ever deterred or defeated any pirate, you can start comparing them to devices that actually have a chance in hell of producing any tangible result.

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IF we move to more and more online (especially digital copy) distribution... there will be less retail theft of movies and music and far more stolen copies.

... and yet, I can't remember the last time I saw an FBI warning precede a video legitimately downloaded from iTunes or Amazon.

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but the blame should be at the feet of all the people who have been ripping and stealing that is leaving the studios scrambling to figure out ways to deter and educate people about not stealing their product

Should we also blame the (perennial) pirates if the studios decide that the best defense against them is to encase every video disc in a 50lb. brick of concrete?

Should we raise a toast to the studios when they decide to gun down every man, woman and child on the planet because it would definitely 100% solve their piracy problem?

There's a point at which the studios need to recognize that a part of their strategy is counter-productive and harming their customers. Just because it's a reaction to piracy taken by the victims does not mean that it's the right reaction or one that doesn't create it's own negative consequences. Consumers shouldn't put up with any behavior enacted at their expense just because it's done in the honorable name of fighting piracy.

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post #110 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 09:34 PM
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If that's really all you have to be outraged over, consider yourself lucky. And if you're really that upset, send the studios letters and vote with your wallet.

I have! I've paid a good bit of money to Slysoft for anyDVD, funding their continual efforts in cracking BD copy protection, in order to deal with HDCP annoyances with older PC hardware (another laughably ineffective stab against piracy... cracked literally in no time, leaving only legit users dealing with compatibility issues. you're really trying to tell me these people know what they're doing?), region-locking, and all this nonsense, even though I have zero interest in ripping discs. I didn't want to pay them, that's for sure, but that's what happens when companies do everything they can to make their product obnoxious to use.
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post #111 of 128 Old 05-14-2012, 10:58 PM
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How about another approach for a minute...

For those in the "these unskippable things don't deter theft" camp... do you have a better idea?

I'm not being a smart-a$$ here... I'm being serious. If you were brainstorming and it was your product and you wanted to deter theft, what ideas would you bring to the table?

I honestly don't have answers either. I'm sure all the warnings and security devices and the encryption is the result of the manufacturers/movie studios throwing everything against the wall and hoping something sticks... and as most of us agree, it doesn't look like the deterrents are really deterring.

So... any thoughts on a better way?

I know people don't like DRM for their digital copies that they purchase... DRM that basically attempts to tie the file to you and possibly to a specific playback device (though iTunes at least will let you play on a limited number of multiple devices rather than tie you to just one).

DRM, at least, permits you to make legal backups since those backups would still be tied to you and you couldn't share them and you can make a backup without breaking any encryption so it is all perfectly legal, say, to backup your iTunes folder or burn to a CD to restore in case of computer hard drive failure.

But would we want to have to register all of our Blu-rays before we could play them back? Software has been going this route, and some companies even require live internet connections while you use the software so that it can verify your license any time you run it... but I don't always keep my Blu-ray player connected to the internet and would hate to not be able to play a movie if my internet connection was down.

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post #112 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 12:50 AM
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In the time it took me to read this whole thread, I could've watched 60 movies worth of unskippable warnings. Which is more of a waste of time?

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post #113 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

For those in the "these unskippable things don't deter theft" camp... do you have a better idea?

Yes, I do. Remove the anti-consumer warnings, remote control disabling and other annoyances (and maybe put a little more effort and budget into designing a more appealing product that will leave the consumer feeling good about their purchase, not irritated) to help offset the losses to piracy by encouraging more purchases. People don't want to rip you off if they think you give a crap about their satisfaction.

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post #114 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 06:32 AM
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How about another approach for a minute...

For those in the "these unskippable things don't deter theft" camp... do you have a better idea?

Yeah. A better idea would be to quit waging war on the consumer. Make things easy. Make the store-bought versions at least as good as downloaded versions. Make it easy to buy and download a movie or TV series without having to jump through a million hoops. Make it so that a movie most people will watch once or twice doesn't cost $25.

Make it so certain distributors get favored treatment and you create a situation where it's difficult to impossible to legally obtain something that is easily obtained illegally. Make it so that you can buy and download (or easily stream) TV shows shortly after they air.
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post #115 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 06:35 AM
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Make it so that a movie most people will watch once or twice doesn't cost $25.

Well if you rent it twice it's less than $25...
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post #116 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 07:23 AM
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Yeah. A better idea would be to quit waging war on the consumer..... Make it so that a movie most people will watch once or twice doesn't cost $25.

+1
If a new BD release was $9.99- why would anyone go through the time and trouble of downloading it? But at $25 per title- it's worth taking the 1.5-2hrs to DL and another 30min to burn to BD.

One common misconception I believe the studios would like us to blindly accept is the idea that every pirated download or copy is a lost sale to the studio- that's just not being realistic.

"If we ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space."
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post #117 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 07:31 AM
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If a new Blu-ray was $9.99 and was actually less annoying than the "free" copy they would sell three times as many.
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post #118 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 07:43 AM
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One common misconception I believe the studios would like us to blindly accept is the idea that every pirated download or copy is a lost sale to the studio- that's just not being realistic.

If you go into a theater without a ticket and watch a movie "for free" is that a lost ticket sale? Yes. If you don't want to buy it in the first place then don't (and so yes it's not a lost sale), but the moment you have access to the film, it becomes a lost sale, because watching this film, whether it's on a dvd Blu-ray or at the theater or via iTunes etc, is not supposed to be free.
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post #119 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

If you go into a theater without a ticket and watch a movie "for free" is that a lost ticket sale? Yes. If you don't want to buy it in the first place then don't (and so yes it's not a lost sale), but the moment you have access to the film, it becomes a lost sale, because watching this film, whether it's on a dvd Blu-ray or at the theater or via iTunes etc, is not supposed to be free.

It's not a lost ticket sale unless the person would have otherwise spent the cash to go in.
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post #120 of 128 Old 05-15-2012, 08:09 AM
 
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It's not a lost ticket sale unless the person would have otherwise spent the cash to go in.

The "person" (aka the criminal) in that scenario has still received a good or service that they were not entitled to. The criminal has still stolen, just as those who download music, movies, and tv shows for free are stealing. Obtaining goods or services that cost money, without paying said money, is called stealing. No amount of justification from kids/young adults with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement will change that.


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