The Terminator New Release - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 09:40 AM
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Whatever. I've had my hybrid with the mono mix for nearly two months now. The teal sucks, but is not horrific to the point of eyeball bleeding (hello LOTR FOTR!). I find that a a few clicks (well, seven, actually) in the color menu on my DLP results in a more accurate look compared to the original.

By the way, I did not even include the 5.1 remix on my hybrid disc. What the hell for? biggrin.gif

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post #452 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 09:44 AM
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I've been bothered by color changes on Blu-Ray releases before (usually the shift to Teal) but in the case of the Terminator, I do not have a problem with what I am seeing. The image clarity is so vastly improved, the teal-ish appearance does not bother me.

Strangely, I am also not bothered by the changes from the mono mix. The surround mix is quite immersive and the instances of sound effects changes do not take me out of the film.

What I am bothered with? The trend in dumbing-down the BD menus found on mgm/fox discs. This particular release should have also included a complete set of extras.
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post #453 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Vertigo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

I want the movie, as it was made, not a revision.
So buy a 35 mm print, is that a problem? smile.gif

I laughed at this, but actually it would be fantastic if someone could make scans from an original release print.

Every single person on here who's outraged about how the latest master looks "nothing" like the original film has no real idea of how the original film looked. I mean, seriously, it's a 29 year old movie. Yeah, I saw it in the theaters during the original release, but even by the time I got the special edition LaserDisc, circa 1989, I had no idea how close that representation was to what I saw projected. All I knew at the time was having it in widescreen was so innovative and cool, and those colors! Especially the flashing police lights. What an NTSC revelation that was.
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Movies look their best when they look like movies. More Patton-esque remasters!

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post #454 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamie E View Post

Every single person on here who's outraged about how the latest master looks "nothing" like the original film has no real idea of how the original film looked.

It didn't look teal. Teal color grading is a recent fad introduced with the Digital Intermediate process.

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post #455 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

It didn't look teal. Teal color grading is a recent fad introduced with the Digital Intermediate process.
[citation needed] wink.gif

(and not that dumb blog, I beg you)
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post #456 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

It didn't look teal. Teal color grading is a recent fad introduced with the Digital Intermediate process.
\

That, IMHO, needs to stop! Every movie is beginning to look like each other visually. Now, even the catalog titles! ARGHH!!!!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #457 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 02:09 PM
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When was this mythical time when every movie was a visually unique snowflake, slave to no visual trends or conventions?
Certainly not any era of film I'm familiar with...
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post #458 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Whatever. I've had my hybrid with the mono mix for nearly two months now. The teal sucks, but is not horrific to the point of eyeball bleeding (hello LOTR FOTR!). I find that a a few clicks (well, seven, actually) in the color menu on my DLP results in a more accurate look compared to the original.

By the way, I did not even include the 5.1 remix on my hybrid disc. What the hell for? biggrin.gif

I included the 5.1 mix on my version, seeing as I was having to use a dual-layer disc for the untouched video & PCM mono audio anyway. Hell, I put the MGM SE DVD mono track on there too. I partnered it with disc 2 from the definitive edition DVD and that's pretty much the best package that's available at the moment.
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post #459 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 10:51 PM
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I have stills from a print and it all turned green over time, so no one can't tell (but I can see this is the original movie, only with better color reproduction allowed by current technology, as I saw it like 8 times upon release and it was teal already).

http://www.hdvision-mag.com/2012/03/was-the-terminator-shown-in-two-different-formats.html

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post #460 of 640 Old 02-27-2013, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

When was this mythical time when every movie was a visually unique snowflake, slave to no visual trends or conventions?
Certainly not any era of film I'm familiar with...

... nor anything that anyone in here (but you) is talking about. Please curb your straw-men.

I don't feel special...
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post #461 of 640 Old 02-28-2013, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

Please curb your straw-men.
If it'll get someone to actually substantiate their claims that the new disc's color is more "revisionist" than the old disc... (preferably without making a similarly baseless claim that "movies never combined blue and green (ie, teal) before DIs", which I find very, very silly; especially when half the time that older movies were shooting at night, there would be mercury vapor streetlights everywhere, which a film print would render as a nice, unambiguous teal)
Unfortunately, few people seem content with merely saying "i don't like the new color", and have to bring that slippery issue of accuracy into it.
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post #462 of 640 Old 02-28-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

If it'll get someone to actually substantiate their claims that the new disc's color is more "revisionist" than the old disc... (preferably without making a similarly baseless claim that "movies never combined blue and green (ie, teal) before DIs", which I find very, very silly; especially when half the time that older movies were shooting at night, there would be mercury vapor streetlights everywhere, which a film print would render as a nice, unambiguous teal)
Unfortunately, few people seem content with merely saying "i don't like the new color", and have to bring that slippery issue of accuracy into it.

Blue, green, and teal are three separate colors. The streetlights you mention would appear green if photographed on film that wasn't timed for them.

I have no illusions that previous video transfers were totally accurate in terms of color (they certainly had their share of issues all around), but at least you can see that most scenes were photographed with a range of colors - some blue, some red, some this or that - whereas the new disc just slathers everything over with teal. Furthermore, it's always the exact same shade of teal, from scene to scene to scene. It looks digital, with no natural gradations or variations. That's just not the way that movies ever looked prior to Digital Intermediates.

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post #463 of 640 Old 02-28-2013, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Furthermore, it's always the exact same shade of teal, from scene to scene to scene. It looks digital, with no natural gradations or variations. That's just not the way that movies ever looked prior to Digital Intermediates.

Well, to be fair, the same monochromatic look could also be achieved with a filter on the camera or a one-light analog timing pass. Just set it up one way and run the whole dang thing through it. Voila- one shade of teal all the way through.

You are correct, however, that even though it could have been done, it just wasn't.

I don't feel special...
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post #464 of 640 Old 02-28-2013, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Blue, green, and teal are three separate colors. The streetlights you mention would appear green if photographed on film that wasn't timed for them.

I have no illusions that previous video transfers were totally accurate in terms of color (they certainly had their share of issues all around), but at least you can see that most scenes were photographed with a range of colors - some blue, some red, some this or that - whereas the new disc just slathers everything over with teal. Furthermore, it's always the exact same shade of teal, from scene to scene to scene. It looks digital, with no natural gradations or variations. That's just not the way that movies ever looked prior to Digital Intermediates.
Teal is a mixture. The color spectrum of those lamps contains plenty of both constituent colors: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/HG-Spektrum_crop.jpg and the precise color balance would tend vary from shot-to-shot in older films, since analog color timing doesn't seem to be a particularly precise art. Sometimes it would lean more towards blue, sometimes more towards green, resulting in various tealish shades, generally something like this: http://images.static-bluray.com/reviews/5772_4_1080p.jpg . There's a scene in The Deer Hunter where De Niro is in a phone booth at night, and on 35mm the ambient street lighting is very much the color of that image, and his face is lit with a warm orange light and it looks like something straight out of that teal-and-orange guy's blog, 100% analog.

Even The Terminator 2, which I've seen on 35mm very recently, while tending towards very blue lighting in the night material, the green component often pops up in various shots, and the Cyberdyne facility sequence looks like something out of the Aliens blu-ray... and the current master really doesn't do a great job of rendering the color.

And regarding the Terminator blu-ray, to my eyes a lot of the material in this new transfer looks quite neutral and varied on its own. If you compare it to the old transfer, it's cooler/marginally greener overall, but most of the glaringly teal stuff is what's lit up by fluorescent lighting. I'm not saying that's how it looked, since I don't know, but it's within the range of analog possibilities.
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post #465 of 640 Old 03-01-2013, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Teal is a mixture.

All colors are a mixture of red, green and blue. You wouldn't say that yellow is the same color as green, would you?
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The color spectrum of those lamps contains plenty of both constituent colors: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/HG-Spektrum_crop.jpg and the precise color balance would tend vary from shot-to-shot in older films, since analog color timing doesn't seem to be a particularly precise art. Sometimes it would lean more towards blue, sometimes more towards green, resulting in various tealish shades, generally something like this: http://images.static-bluray.com/reviews/5772_4_1080p.jpg . There's a scene in The Deer Hunter where De Niro is in a phone booth at night, and on 35mm the ambient street lighting is very much the color of that image, and his face is lit with a warm orange light and it looks like something straight out of that teal-and-orange guy's blog, 100% analog.

I'm not saying that teal was never seen in movies prior to Digital Intermediates. However, the persistent presence of it in scene after scene after scene, such that most whites are tinged with teal in any given scene regardless of context, is a digital grading issue and a modern coloring fad.
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Even The Terminator 2, which I've seen on 35mm very recently, while tending towards very blue lighting in the night material, the green component often pops up in various shots,

Viewing old 35mm prints in modern theaters is not necessarily instructive, because the print's colors may have shifted or faded, and current xenon projection lamps may have a different color temperature than what that the prints were timed for.

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post #466 of 640 Old 03-01-2013, 04:38 PM
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Maybe they tealed it up a bit too much, maybe not. It's certainly not a horrible teal mess like some stuff these days. I'm just glad that we finally have a new remaster after all of these years! And it's not a waxworks DNR mess, it has the grain and crisp surface details and it also lacks halos so about time and awesome!!!!
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post #467 of 640 Old 03-01-2013, 08:49 PM
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It only looks like certain scenes are teal - based on the screenshots I am looking at on the BD site. I don't see an issue.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Terminator-Blu-ray/61372/#Screenshots

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post #468 of 640 Old 03-01-2013, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

It only looks like certain scenes are teal - based on the screenshots I am looking at on the BD site. I don't see an issue.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Terminator-Blu-ray/61372/#Screenshots
I agree. Unless you're watching it side-by-side with the old disc, the colors look more or less neutral (with respect to an overall teal cast, not the colors the scene is lit with) in much of the film. The "problem", if there is one, is blown well out of proportion (as is usual with the screenshot colorimetry silliness).

Honestly I have a bigger problem with the rather visible Lowry-ing going on in many scenes, occasionally manifesting as a static grain pattern that follows moving objects underneath the layer of fake grain, more often making textures look subtly plasticky.
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post #469 of 640 Old 03-02-2013, 09:32 AM
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I agree. Unless you're watching it side-by-side with the old disc, the colors look more or less neutral (with respect to an overall teal cast, not the colors the scene is lit with) in much of the film. The "problem", if there is one, is blown well out of proportion (as is usual with the screenshot colorimetry silliness).

Honestly I have a bigger problem with the rather visible Lowry-ing going on in many scenes, occasionally manifesting as a static grain pattern that follows moving objects underneath the layer of fake grain, more often making textures look subtly plasticky.

I cannot believe Lowry is still doing that kind of crap. Too bad.

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post #470 of 640 Old 03-02-2013, 10:07 AM
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I cannot believe Lowry is still doing that kind of crap. Too bad.
Don't get me wrong, it's done quite well compared to some of their earlier efforts. But there's definitely something going bump in the night with the grain and underlying texture, the image takes on this vague digital edge sometimes.
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post #471 of 640 Old 03-03-2013, 09:10 AM
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So, not as evident as the A New Hope scenes on Tatooine? Looked pretty bad there in a few spots.

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post #472 of 640 Old 03-03-2013, 11:38 AM
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occasionally manifesting as a static grain pattern that follows moving objects underneath the layer of fake grain
Could you give us an example? Specific moment in the movie (hh:mm:ss)?

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post #473 of 640 Old 03-03-2013, 12:38 PM
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Could you give us an example? Specific moment in the movie (hh:mm:ss)?
I'll have to skim the film.
Definitely less artifacty than Lowry's work on Star Wars though.
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post #474 of 640 Old 03-03-2013, 12:46 PM
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I haven't seen Star Wars on BD (and I won't, at least until I can't watch the ORIGINAL ones), but I've seen Terminator three times and haven't noticed anything like this.

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post #475 of 640 Old 03-04-2013, 08:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

I agree. Unless you're watching it side-by-side with the old disc, the colors look more or less neutral (with respect to an overall teal cast, not the colors the scene is lit with) in much of the film. The "problem", if there is one, is blown well out of proportion (as is usual with the screenshot colorimetry silliness).

Honestly I have a bigger problem with the rather visible Lowry-ing going on in many scenes, occasionally manifesting as a static grain pattern that follows moving objects underneath the layer of fake grain, more often making textures look subtly plasticky.

I noticed the color timing immediately into the "present" day scenes. Flesh tones make it all too obvious that they have been skewed digitally.

And in motion, especially during close-ups, there is some very slight smearing evident. Tried getting screens but it was too subtle to come across in stills. The grain leaves a haze of sorts. It's quite noticeable when Sarah and Kyle are in the hotel. Those scenes are really afflicted.
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post #476 of 640 Old 03-04-2013, 12:32 PM
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Lowry removes grain and replaces it with fake grain, it's what they do.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #477 of 640 Old 03-04-2013, 01:34 PM
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Lowry removes grain and replaces it with fake grain, it's what they do.
Okeedoke, I see this mentioned from time to time, but do we have any proof of this? Actual, real concrete proof. I fail to see how James Cameron would allow his film to have a full restoration, the grain removed, then new grain added and then a new negative printed from that digital master. That to me sounds not only implausible, but laughable. Lowry has cleaned up numerous films in full on restorations and new negatives were printed from those restorations. At least that is what I have read. The internet is ripe with bull***t so who the frick knows...???

I've seen fake grain on Blu-Rays before (hello Blue Underground) but as much as I dislike the teal on this Terminator release, it looks sensational even on the largest screens. It does not have a fake appearance.

I'm not saying I am right, but I cannot fir the life of me see why grain should be removed only to have new grain added. i have personally watched a colorist work on a transfer in regards to grain and use DNR to reduce grain from shot to shot to match. It can be done, easily, with superb results.

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post #478 of 640 Old 03-04-2013, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Okeedoke, I see this mentioned from time to time, but do we have any proof of this? Actual, real concrete proof. I fail to see how James Cameron would allow his film to have a full restoration, the grain removed, then new grain added and then a new negative printed from that digital master. That to me sounds not only implausible, but laughable. Lowry has cleaned up numerous films in full on restorations and new negatives were printed from those restorations. At least that is what I have read. The internet is ripe with bull***t so who the frick knows...???

I've seen fake grain on Blu-Rays before (hello Blue Underground) but as much as I dislike the teal on this Terminator release, it looks sensational even on the largest screens. It does not have a fake appearance.

I'm not saying I am right, but I cannot fir the life of me see why grain should be removed only to have new grain added. i have personally watched a colorist work on a transfer in regards to grain and use DNR to reduce grain from shot to shot to match. It can be done, easily, with superb results.
So they get too DNR it & then tell the pro-film crowd: 'lOOk grain!'.
So they can have their fakesugar cake & eat it too.
I was anti-fakegrain even B4 Blu. Can't think of a reason for fakegrain on a HD release [including "300"].


Didn't you follow the "Aliens" thread??? Were JC bragged bout what a great job was done.
It's a classic well worth checking out for yourself.

"T" doesn't lOOk nor sound as originally release; what has Blu brought?
I wouldn't mind the old-as-dirt MPEG 2 transfer sooooo much if it had only includED the OST in lossless.

"I wonder if any of the releases had slipcovers though."
"Are these comfirmed to have slipcovers?"
"They look nice in those slips."
"This slipcover looks too good to pass up."
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post #479 of 640 Old 03-04-2013, 04:56 PM
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Robert Harris has said time and time again that it's Lowry/Reliance's SOP to de-grain movies and then add "period appropriate grain" back in.
It's what they do.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #480 of 640 Old 03-04-2013, 05:36 PM
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Yep. From what I know, their patented process is designed to pretty much clean up everything on the image including grain. As a result, to avoid the harsh video look, they add 'film grain' to make the image look authentic once again. It sounds as if they've improved quite a bit over time with it.

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