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post #541 of 640 Old 03-15-2013, 10:08 PM
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It's a tragedy that all films weren't duped to technicolour, for archival purposes, as part of the process of generating release prints: we may not be having quite such heated discussions if there were more accurate frames from the original sources than simply video conversions of those sources available now for reference.

I am disappointed with the lack of interest by the studios in releasing versions as close to the original, as an option, if not as a matter of course. I really don't care if they release revisionist versions as long as original versions are still available too.

This whole situation reminds me vaguely of the BBC Doctor Who debacle, so we are not learning from our mistakes as much as we should (ie preserving original material for posterity).
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post #542 of 640 Old 03-15-2013, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Heck, I've seen IB Tech prints from the 50s with what would undoubtedly be called "revisionist teal" in them.

I don't think anyone is arguing against any particular artistic intent in the original theatrical releases (including teal): what we become heated about is revision of those original artistic intents and presentations in subsequent consumer releases, because very few of us will ever have the resources to access an uncorrupted 35mm film version.
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post #543 of 640 Old 03-15-2013, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

It's a tragedy that all films weren't duped to technicolour, for archival purposes, as part of the process of generating release prints: we may not be having quite such heated discussions if there were more accurate frames from the original sources than simply video conversions of those sources available now for reference.

I am disappointed with the lack of interest by the studios in releasing versions as close to the original, as an option, if not as a matter of course. I really don't care if they release revisionist versions as long as original versions are still available too.

This whole situation reminds me vaguely of the BBC Doctor Who debacle, so we are not learning from our mistakes as much as we should (ie preserving original material for posterity).
I'm not sure that would really help. Even when great-looking IB Tech prints or non-faded Eastman prints are readily available, the people in charge of video mastering rarely seem interested in replicating or even checking that look.
I remember reading an interview with the Universal restoration people where they even talked about how they use their existing video material as reference for new film transfers. Having compared my share of Universal blu-rays with nice-looking older prints, I find that a bit frightening eek.gif
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post #544 of 640 Old 03-16-2013, 04:37 AM
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The mono LD track synced to the new version is kicking around in the dark recesses of the web. I muxed it with the Blu-ray and even tried a 2.1 version by blending the mono track with the .1 of the remix, to give it some kicks. It doesn't mesh with the pristine picture. In fact, it sounds worlds apart. I always advocated the mono mix, but now, with the possibility of seeing the remaster with the mono mix, I prefer the 5.1. The mono is just too grunge and limping.

Sure, in 10% of the mix, the 5.1 lacks the mono mix impact and style. But in the other 90%, it annihiliates it.
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post #545 of 640 Old 03-16-2013, 01:55 PM
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Your opinion. Which I disagree with 100%.

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post #546 of 640 Old 03-16-2013, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

I'm not sure that would really help. Even when great-looking IB Tech prints or non-faded Eastman prints are readily available, the people in charge of video mastering rarely seem interested in replicating or even checking that look.
I remember reading an interview with the Universal restoration people where they even talked about how they use their existing video material as reference for new film transfers. Having compared my share of Universal blu-rays with nice-looking older prints, I find that a bit frightening eek.gif

Universal has screwed up so many titles it's unbelievable.

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post #547 of 640 Old 03-16-2013, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Heck, I've seen IB Tech prints from the 50s with what would undoubtedly be called "revisionist teal" in them.

Did you project those prints with the carbon arc lamps that they were originally timed for, or modern xenon lamps?

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post #548 of 640 Old 03-16-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdvision View Post

The mono LD track synced to the new version is kicking around in the dark recesses of the web. I muxed it with the Blu-ray and even tried a 2.1 version by blending the mono track with the .1 of the remix, to give it some kicks. It doesn't mesh with the pristine picture. In fact, it sounds worlds apart. I always advocated the mono mix, but now, with the possibility of seeing the remaster with the mono mix, I prefer the 5.1. The mono is just too grunge and limping.

Sure, in 10% of the mix, the 5.1 lacks the mono mix impact and style. But in the other 90%, it annihiliates it.

You know, if Jim Cameron wanted to do a new 5.1 remix that retained the original effects and flavor of the track, but gave it a little more dimensionality and power, I'd probably be OK with that. There are a number of perfectly good 5.1 remixes from mono sources available on Blu-ray now. However, the existing 5.1 track for The Terminator is an amateurish mess. It's total rubbish.

Jaws and Vertigo are two more movies that were poorly remixed to 5.1 for previous video editions. Both have brand new 5.1 tracks on Blu-ray that are substantially improved over the crummy DVD soundtracks.

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post #549 of 640 Old 03-16-2013, 04:20 PM
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Yep. It's not the fact that Terminator's been remixed into 5.1 that's the issue (a lot of people are making that mistake), it's the cack-handed way that they've done it. I could happily live with something that preserved the brute strength of the original mix whilst adding a moderate amount of contemporary finesse, but it's been rebuilt from top to bottom with scant regard for the original. One particular aspect wouldn't be enough to throw me, but the combination of the unbalanced new effects, the mis-timed/missing music, the missing effects and the horrid T2 retrofit means that I can't stand more than a few minutes of the 5.1 at a time.

Blade Runner's Final Cut remix is the gold standard for me. Sure, it helped that they had existing multichannel mixes for reference, but they still could've fallen prey to the same temptations as Cameron and Rydstrom did with Terminator. But instead of gimmicky dimensionality they added a palpable layer of depth and vitality; it was like hearing the movie with cloth taken out of my ears. Whereas with Terminator, I just wanna stuff the cloth back in as far as it can go.
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post #550 of 640 Old 03-18-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonAB View Post

Threads like this are the reason that a thread like "This Blu-Ray Forum is not as active as it used to be...." exist.

Seriously. Do people enjoy anything anymore?
Actually, I'd argue that a large part of the reason this forum isn't as active anymore is because there's such a vocal group of people that jump on you with comments like that whenever you find anything that might be less than perfect with a release. The 'shut up and enjoy the film' crowd has been pretty loud on here for the last year on a fora that's was previously populated by people looking for things that are actually done right.
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post #551 of 640 Old 03-18-2013, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

And it's obvious what is being done here. I thought the whole film was going to be a mass of teal from the giant hyperbole on this site. I watched it and was surprised at how damn fine it looked. Never once did the teal bother me because in reality it isn't really teal. It's a very marginal change to a bluish/greenish shade, honestly would not call it teal, which gives the film an aesthetic where before it looked like random 80s film shot on ****** camera. It also mixes well with the future sections.

I never thought skin tones were out of whack on this one. Also paid close attention to the whites as well when they appear. A tiny bit of difference. And one I think this film sorely needed in the end.... One the old 'purists' are never going to like for various reasons mostly nostalgic. They want their 80s back and someone is stealing it from them or something. That is their complaint and it can remain a valid one but in end I feel retiming these films is the right thing to do when it comes out like this. I still have yet to see the Alien films where it could look a bit different but again I never liked the old color timing on those films either. I just cannot stand a red-tinted image and that is about that in my opinion.

Maybe if it were in between the present two timings people would not be so angry IDK. I'm not saying they could not have done better I'm saying I think they did a great job here for what it is. Honestly, I watch this film like once a year. It's not going to affect my everyday life.

This wimpy gun sounds BS is ridiculous. Maybe you guys need to recalibrate your sound systems because I never heard many wimpy gun sounds. This is a 1984 film done on a small budget. No 1984 film to my knowledge ever had that great of gun sounds compared to today's sound design. Everything but a few shots here and there sounded fine to me. None of this hilarious pew pew crap on this site anyway. Maybe turn the volume knob up grandpa.
"because in reality it isn't really teal. It's a very marginal change to a bluish/greenish shade, honestly would not call it teal"

If "teal" isn't "a bluish/greenish shade" what color (shade) is it?

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post #552 of 640 Old 03-18-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Deviation View Post

Actually, I'd argue that a large part of the reason this forum isn't as active anymore is because there's such a vocal group of people that jump on you with comments like that whenever you find anything that might be less than perfect with a release. The 'shut up and enjoy the film' crowd has been pretty loud on here for the last year on a fora that's was previously populated by people looking for things that are actually done right.

I would argue that many got tired of some users just ripping any high profile title they could find with any perceived fault.

Not saying there wasn't some truth to some issues like the DNR'd Patton, but a grand majority of it can be viewed as nitpicking. And a lot of those users that were the most vocal usually were the biggest cheerleaders for HD DVD. IOW it could be viewed as having an ax to grind against the format. There were plenty of HD DVD titles that Universal just shoveled out to meet contractual obligations but I don't remember seeing a lot of out cry about those releases, but you can be sure when the BD was released some cherry picked images from each format and pretty much always concluded the HD DVD release was superior.

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post #553 of 640 Old 03-18-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

I would argue that many got tired of some users just ripping any high profile title they could find with any perceived fault.

Not saying there wasn't some truth to some issues like the DNR'd Patton, but a grand majority of it can be viewed as nitpicking. And a lot of those users that were the most vocal usually were the biggest cheerleaders for HD DVD. IOW it could be viewed as having an ax to grind against the format. There were plenty of HD DVD titles that Universal just shoveled out to meet contractual obligations but I don't remember seeing a lot of out cry about those releases, but you can be sure when the BD was released some cherry picked images from each format and pretty much always concluded the HD DVD release was superior.

That's absurd. The number of members here that would fall under your label of pro HDDVD / BR haters = Whiney Nitpickers might number... 2 or 3 tops. The vast majority of people who tear apart substandard releases do so because the Blu-ray format is fully capable of offering glorious results even for older catalog films and between studio revisionism, botched transfers and over compressed encoding, a significant number of Blu-rays especially catalog releases *demand* to be called out as flawed and unworthy of consumer's interest or money. You can thank these "nitpickers" for Blu-rays like The French Connection, Gladiator and Patton for getting vastly better releases the second time around.
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post #554 of 640 Old 03-18-2013, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

That's absurd. The number of members here that would fall under your label of pro HDDVD / BR haters = Whiney Nitpickers might number... 2 or 3 tops. The vast majority of people who tear apart substandard releases do so because the Blu-ray format is fully capable of offering glorious results even for older catalog films and between studio revisionism, botched transfers and over compressed encoding, a significant number of Blu-rays especially catalog releases *demand* to be called out as flawed and unworthy of consumer's interest or money. You can thank these "nitpickers" for Blu-rays like The French Connection, Gladiator and Patton for getting vastly better releases the second time around.

I never said that some didn't have valid points. But don't kid yourself there was a lot of negativism aimed at BD by some after HD DVD folded. This forum's membership swayed very pro HD DVD and that's why Blu-ray.com got started.

Those examples were pretty extreme and I agree that that should have been re-done. The problem is now that some studios are being cheap or they are intentionally holding back in the initial releases so they can sell new and improve versions in the future.

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post #555 of 640 Old 03-18-2013, 11:30 PM
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Here is a screenshot from the Image Entrainment DVD release which I believe was sourced from the Laserdisc.



You might notice that it has a slight teal shift to it which looks close to the newly remastered Blu-Ray. Take from that what you will....
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post #556 of 640 Old 03-19-2013, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Blu-21 View Post

Take from that what you will....

OK, it looks closer (less teal) to old Blu-ray.

I've got both discs and I've got to say that while I love the clarity of the new disc, I love the colors of the old disc. Neither is perfect, IMO.
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post #557 of 640 Old 03-19-2013, 09:37 AM
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Just watched the new transfer last night!

I've FINALLY felt like being in the theater watching this release of Terminator. The detail was a significant leap from the first Blu-ray, and many scenes were really sharp. Not sure if this is just psychological, but it seemed that the sound encapsulated me and hit harder than ever before, too.

Great Blu-ray for $10. Sure, it may have some teal (I didn't notice anything different). And sure, it may not have the original mono track (rarely ever does this happen for other titles, though). I didn't even think or notice these things one bit.

Definitely recommended. The original release was almost as good as an upscaled DVD. This is an actual HD release.
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post #558 of 640 Old 03-19-2013, 07:35 PM
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Where is this BR being sold? I'm in Toronto which is a pretty big city, and I have yet to find it anywhere. And things like the Patton reissue and other older titles have always been readily available the first week of release but the Terminator is MIA in any store I've checked.
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post #559 of 640 Old 03-19-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Yosemite Dan View Post

Where is this BR being sold? I'm in Toronto which is a pretty big city, and I have yet to find it anywhere. And things like the Patton reissue and other older titles have always been readily available the first week of release but the Terminator is MIA in any store I've checked.

That's weird, I see it everywhere here in Montreal - HMV, Futureshop, BestBuy... fwiw, amazon.ca has it for $13.97...
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post #560 of 640 Old 03-19-2013, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Yosemite Dan View Post

Where is this BR being sold? I'm in Toronto which is a pretty big city, and I have yet to find it anywhere. And things like the Patton reissue and other older titles have always been readily available the first week of release but the Terminator is MIA in any store I've checked.

Mine wasn't in my Best Buy store. I had to ask for them to ship it to me, though.
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post #561 of 640 Old 03-19-2013, 10:23 PM
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Got mine at Walmart for $9.99
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post #562 of 640 Old 03-20-2013, 02:16 PM
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You can get it for $7.99 in the Walmart bin.

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post #563 of 640 Old 03-22-2013, 07:25 AM
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I spent some time yesterday playing the two discs in sync side by side on my PC. Paying special attention to instances of white - or perceived white, if you want to be technical - I found the new transfer to align to a very light olive green and the original to be a very light teal. Whether it's the perceived white of a spotlight, flashlight, fabric, paper, etc, the same color skew persists across the whole disc. What kept bothering me about the new disc was the fact that everyone looks like they have a sickly tan, the skies were brown instead of blue, and all the police cars have red and bold teal lights instead of red and blue. I'm gonna regrade this sucker.
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post #564 of 640 Old 03-23-2013, 07:48 PM
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You can get it for $7.99 in the Walmart bin.

Thanks for the heads up, found it tonight for $7.99.

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post #565 of 640 Old 03-24-2013, 07:54 AM
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It's now down to $8.99 on Amazon.
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post #566 of 640 Old 03-27-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-21 View Post

Here is a screenshot from the Image Entrainment DVD release which I believe was sourced from the Laserdisc.



You might notice that it has a slight teal shift to it which looks close to the newly remastered Blu-Ray. Take from that what you will....
Way too go!!
You choose/pick a pic w/a neon light as "a" light source.
"A type of cold cathode gas-discharge light".
That doesn't effect the cap at all... rolleyes.gif

EDitEDbyED:
Let's see a cap of this frame from the new Blu!

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post #567 of 640 Old 03-27-2013, 11:15 AM
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I don't usually do the trailer thing, but it's worth noting that some of the original trailers also have similarities to the new disc, somewhere between the two color-wise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Jo8QoOTQ4
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post #568 of 640 Old 03-27-2013, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BIG ED View Post

Way too go!!
You choose/pick a pic w/a neon light as "a" light source.
"A type of cold cathode gas-discharge light".
That doesn't effect the cap at all... rolleyes.gif
If you want to play that card then here is the exact same screenshot from the MGM special edition DVD which has the same reddish push in the colour timing that all subsequent DVD releases later followed, including the orignal 2006 Blu-Ray.



The new remastered Blu-Ray looks much closer to the Image Entrainment DVD from the late 90's then anything else....
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post #569 of 640 Old 04-01-2013, 03:53 AM
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The red haze cancelled the green hence the mutant aspect. The movie always looked like the old Image disc, or the new Master.
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post #570 of 640 Old 04-01-2013, 05:30 AM
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Yep, the warm red push has obviously come from every re-timed DVD release from the MGM 2001 special edition onwards to the 2006 Blu-Ray, I'm betting it never looked that way originally on the negative or in theaters. The Image Entertainment DVD from the late 90's (which was sourced from the Laserdisc) quite clearly had shades of green and looks a lot closer to the new Blu-Ray remaster from a visual sense. Here is yet another example with screencaps that indicate how much closer the new remastered Blu-Ray looks to the old Image Entertainment DVD.

*click the images for full-sized versions which are needed.*

Image Entertainment DVD:






Remastered Blu-Ray:




And here are some of the many versions of the DVD with slight variations in terms of the transfer quality, but overall all include the same warm red push:







and here is the 2006 Blu-Ray which was obviously sourced from the warm red tinted DVD version:



No the Image Entertainment DVD and the new remastered Blu-Ray don't look exactly the same, but its pretty clear that BEFORE the 2001 regrading of the warm red colours, the Image Entertainment DVD looks closer to the remastered Blu-Ray. Also note that both eyes through the glasses are most visible in the Image Entertainment DVD & the new remastered Blu-Ray which is yet another similarity they both have in common compared to the other darkened versions.
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