The Terminator New Release - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Does megaupload handle 30gb files?
Plus no sound at all!
I thought you had muxed in the LD audio... I can wait for it to be completed. I don't know about MU, but a direct connection would do the trick.
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post #182 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 03:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It keeps drifting I need to sync it frame by frame
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post #183 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

It keeps drifting I need to sync it frame by frame

Never had that problem when doing the US release, it would sync up fine except at reel change points. The new BD isn't encoded at 24.000fps instead of 23.976 like Total Recall, is it? When you take out the side flip silence, etc. from the LD, is the length still approximately the same as the audio from the new BD?

Another thing to look at is the recording hardware/software for the LD PCM. It's possible you've overlooked something.
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post #184 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 04:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I will get it just will take a little while longer
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post #185 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

First encode, not 100% happy yet
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/148709
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/148710

So instead of a teal tint it has a red tint?
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post #186 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

So instead of a teal tint it has a red tint?
I can't get the images to load right now (specifically the 'on mouseover' second image) but there was a red push in the original photography - it's common in many films of that era. If a true color regrading was done to remove the red push without just bathing the image in teal, there probably wouldn't be many complaints around here about the video, but they went with the heavy handed approach instead.
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

There's no dout the Cameron/Lowry color grading is severely more accurate to the original than any old video releases, or fan edits.
This is patently false. The photography had a red push, and they overcompensated with teal to get rid of it.
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post #187 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

First encode, not 100% happy yet
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/148709
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/148710
Looks closer to the 35mm prints than the Tealinated transfer, by far. There was no teal in theaters. Anyone saying there was pretty much needs to be placed on the Ignore list because it's just not worth arguing with them.
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Originally Posted by Deviation View Post

This is patently false. The photography had a red push, and they overcompensated with teal to get rid of it.
Of course it's false. In fact, it's ridiculous to say the film looked teal. But no sense in attempting to reason with him. Just like "there is no edge enhancement on the Phantom menace DVD" and "there was absolutely a green push on FOTR" and "Gladiator looks spectacular and is director approved", you are not going to convince these people of what should be obvious.

Let them go watch GHOSTBUSTERS, with its completely bloomed out garbage transfer. Or perhaps they can enjoy CONAN THE BARBARIAN, minus much of the music score.

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post #188 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 08:15 AM
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Look, kids- it's another meeting of the Let's All Speak In Absolutes Club!
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post #189 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

The new transfer is for Europe only. The UK is the disc to get because it has English DTS-HD. The German, Italian, French, etc. discs only have English DTS-HR tracks. The transfers are all identical. All discs are region free. Go ahead and import this spectacular release! You can get it from Amazon UK for cheap. The US/Canada does not have the new transfer and there are no plans on bringing it here, as of now.

I don't know about being cheap. It's around $20 US with shipping. I figured this was less than my BD purchase in 2006. But I just checked and I ordered the Terminator on BD from Amazon on June 17th, 2006 for only $10.62.(I received a 10% discount on all my Amazon HD DVD and BD purchases back then)

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post #190 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviation View Post

I can't get the images to load right now (specifically the 'on mouseover' second image) but there was a red push in the original photography - it's common in many films of that era. If a true color regrading was done to remove the red push without just bathing the image in teal, there probably wouldn't be many complaints around here about the video, but they went with the heavy handed approach instead.
This is patently false. The photography had a red push, and they overcompensated with teal to get rid of it.

I didn't notice a red push on the print I saw not too long ago. It actually looked pretty natural with the night scenes having a nice cold tone to them. It was part of a double feature with Aliens (tealed up version). Had the redone 5.1 soundtrack which actually sounded quite good by itself.
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post #191 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

So instead of a teal tint it has a red tint?


Actually closer to pink, but that was there Under the teal.
Blues still look blue i will take more shots later.
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post #192 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

The dynamic range has been severely compressed. Obviously LPCM is lossless, but it doesn't help much since the final master had barely any dynamic range at all.

This is a matter of perspective. The dynamic range in the 5.1 remix has been grossly inflated. The bass is very boomy with poor definition, and low-end droning frequently drowns out other important audio elements. (The sound of Reese pumping his shotgun in the car when he wakes up from his nightmare is barely audible at all now.) I suppose if your definition of "good dynamic range" is "My subwoofer shook the foundation of my house," then this track must seem awesome to you. Personally, when that bass is so poorly integrated into the sound design, it just sounds obnoxious to me.

In addition to this, and the countless replaced sound effects, you've failed to acknowledge just how gimmicky the directional steering in the 5.1 mix is. Audio elements shift around the soundstage in a very artificial manner. There are numerous instances where the ambience in a scene will move from speaker to speaker with the sound effects, completely leaving one side ot the room to go to the other. In several scenes, the musical score has been taken out of the front channels and moved to the surrounds for no reason at all.

Rocking bass and ping-ponging directional effects do not in and of themselves make for a quality 5.1 mix. This one is very bad, and doesn't suit the movie at all.

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post #193 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 11:59 AM
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Film restoration/preservation expert Torsten Kaiser weighed in on the colour issue over at Blu-ray.com. Interesting reading:

Those who "unequivocally" state that the color tones referred to were not possible or not made in the 1980s would very likely hear their respective jaws drop to the floor loudly if they held an actual (and accurately minted) 35mm print, where this was actually done in their hands. I have worked with such materials over the course of decades and have seen some beautiful, striking work and some of it - unfortunately - also deteriorated and faded over the many years, in urgent need of (a true) restoration. Many here and elsewhere have disputed that THE TERMINATOR and other films looked ever like they do now on Blu-ray after a new master, often approved by the makers, was made. Many also dispute that such a color range and tonality could even be achieved photochemically.

The truth is, the latter was most certainly possible and as for the former, while not perfect in every shot and the methodology not the right one applied (global instead of color specific emphasis, see below) the new master of THE TERMINATOR, also in color representation and registration, is a VAST IMPROVEMENT over the old, completely skewed masters that successively hit the shelves and TV airwaves. In some shots the "distance" to the original is not great at all, if fact, it is pretty close, in others the differences are more visible, but hardly a reason to call for somebodies head. So, to answer one question right away: is it possible and even likely that these old masters were all wrong and nobody bothered to change it ? Yes. The reason: personal p(references) by colorists back then and lack of (proper, accurate) references (on 35mm). The old masters, especially the first ones of the respective films, were derived on very limited equipment re: color spectrum and range, let alone resolution and detail. Another truth: few cared in those days about what the original truely looked like. Most often the references on 35mm were not available or followed. What makes matters worse: the old masters were most often used AS REFERENCE every time a new master was being made/ordered. Even now clients offer older masters as "reference", hoping they would do us a favour. But, the reality is: the master is, if not exaclty done to the original's "spex" a matter of interpretation both personal on behalf of the colorist doing the work and the one(s) who ordered/supervised it.

To the colors:
Historically and photochemically speaking, the colors - also the amber tones, by the way - were more or less in intensity part of color processing since Technicolor experimented with color photography and successive dye transfer printing processes early on - even Laurence Of Arabia has some of these shades in the original palette, emphasized in that color shade alone. So, YES, it WAS photochemically possible (especially in the 1980s) to achieve the color range of "teal" (actually cyan and cobalt blue). You need to look no further than BLUE THUNDER or BLADE RUNNER, the latter having been re-emphasized for that look in the final cut since the re-release prints were FAR off the original and incorrect.

I do not know who the cinematographer reffered to is and what experience he's got, but he is very mistaken. One has to understand that the process works on two lines of basis - in BOTH fields, photochemical only and digital (DI).
One is GLOBALLY, where the shades (for instance: cyan/cobalt blue) are attributed over a wider range of colours thus appearing like a layer spread over the whole frame and all colors rather than accentuating specific colours only). THIS is the method used on THE TERMINATOR (in this case via digital color correction). This method was rarely used in photochemics, and is more tied to the DI process - but both can handle this with some precision, photochemical processing havimg the advantage of a much wider color range and thus potentially being able to look far more "lush".

The other method is accentuating the colors specifically - i.e. picking them and all the "connected, aligning" shades are transformed by either/and/or saturation, color shift, changes in luminance etc. This was often the case in Technicolor, of course, and another color process just as famous to those who know and remember it well, with its various changes down the years: DeLuxe.
The tonalities of Blue/Cyan and golden Amber were very much possible and part of the DeLuxe color process and later also others, partially seen already in the 1950s an 60s. It has to be strongly noted though that the extreme extend found of the MM Blu-ray Collection on such films as HOW TO MARRY A MILLIONAIRE or RIVER OF NO RETURN is - in emphasis and in the way it was attributed (color range, tonality and depth) - very incorrect. DeLuxe never looked like this and snow, of course, is not (in shades of deep) blue unless painted or sprayed on. Digitally, on a DI, LUTs - L(ook) U(p) T(ables) - are being used to achieve this effect. However, these LUTs can be very nasty, if the person handling it is not VERY careful. "Touches" and even downright overblown saturations and shifts can affect the intended range, affecting also unintended colors and shades - such as was the case on HTMAM or RONR with the Marilyn Monroe BD Edition and some BONDs as well as the master of the U.S. version of ASSAULT ON PRECINCT 13.

To be specific on THE TERMINATOR the cyan / bluish tones WERE very much part of the color palette, which was - on the original prints - in the DeLuxe process. But as opposed to the BD - on 35mm these were mostly COLOR / SHADE SPECIFIC and not as global as seen in many shots. However: note that the color re-timing, ideally, is done shot by shot and a simple setting of that LUT is not just applied to all shots with a single touch of a button.

In some shots of the new BD, the emphasis (saturation) on cyanish tones is a bit too much (but specifically night scenes were lit in cyan[!] so it has to be there), while in most, though not perfect for the reasons I stated the timing made are still pretty darn good, and on yet on few others again photochemical effects such as in the discotheque are (yet again) are, unfortunately, not fully realized to the original portential (see below).

Bottom line: DIs can be made cheaper, different, more precise in many ways, yes. Specific photochemical attributes, however, can still not be achieved digitally on many levels. That beauty is tied only to film. Note also that color processing on both analogue and digital fronts is also a matter of choice by the colorist and/or the people who ordered/supervised it. Before finalizing production - and after. The latter being the more complicated. A lot of people here would not believe how many films they have seen and grown to love in this specific "color palette" that are - in truth and reality - ABSOLUTELY WRONG in color representation/registration. Welcome to my world.

http://www.tle-films.com/TEST/T1_BDcom_2.jpg
http://www.tle-films.com/TEST/T1_BDcom_1.jpg
http://www.tle-films.com/TEST/T1_BDcom_3.jpg


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=198940&page=44
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post #194 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

False, the original 35mm presentation was not bathed in pink. Maybe not as teal (although close enough), but definitely zero pink.

I watched a 35MM print last spring, an original print from 1984 and it was far more balanced in the colors than I've seen on video. Less saturated (maybe due to it being an old print) and not nasty-red or teal. But it had a "cooler" feel to it.

It looked really, really good. I was surprised at the quality being used to a VHS of it and that first DVD.
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post #195 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Not the same frame but I went somewhere between the full red and the pink of the old transfer, again this is my first encode not the final

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/148796
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post #196 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 02:27 PM
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I know I can't remember how The Terminator looked in the theater. I saw it 28 years ago in college. At a small theater in Blacksburg, VA.
I'm glad film projector days are over. All of the AMC theaters we go to have replaced all of their film projectors with digital.

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post #197 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 04:02 PM
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The new Terminator transfer looks terrific to me. The grain is a little smudgy at times, but that's no surprise if it's a Lowry product, as has been assumed. The colour has a pleasing range, it's not just teal teal teal. Factor in the PCM laserdisc audio (remuxed with the untouched BD video encode) and I've got the best darned edition of Terminator that I'll be needing for quite some time.
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post #198 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 05:32 PM
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red push is disgusting

so is teal puke like Season of the Witch and Underworld.

but the transfer is none of the above.
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post #199 of 640 Old 10-02-2012, 05:55 PM
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James Cameron was found unconscious at his home today and hospitalized. Doctors said James had OD on teal again, police have confided 'there's some real bad teal going around'. Charlie Sheen has been quoted as saying 'I told Cameron to stay away from that teal sh*t but he would'nt listen'. Authorities caution people that Cameron may recover and teal again.
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Originally Posted by Spiritual_Chaos View Post

I watched a 35MM print last spring, an original print from 1984 and it was far more balanced in the colors than I've seen on video. Less saturated (maybe due to it being an old print) and not nasty-red or teal. But it had a "cooler" feel to it.
It looked really, really good. I was surprised at the quality being used to a VHS of it and that first DVD.

Ignore him, that poster lives in his own world of fantasy.
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post #200 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Didn't we have a cinematographer correct it to what it should look like? and was that rather teal free but keeping the component colours? Just on the previous page?
But never mind hey.
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post #201 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

James Cameron was found unconscious at his home today and hospitalized. Doctors said James had OD on teal again, police have confided 'there's some real bad teal going around'. Charlie Sheen has been quoted as saying 'I told Cameron to stay away from that teal sh*t but he would'nt listen'. Authorities caution people that Cameron may recover and teal again.
I just laughed so hard I ache.
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Ignore him, that poster lives in his own world of fantasy.
Should I be ignored? As I mentioned, I was able to view a 35mm print after the release of the DVD. There is no question in my mind this tealinated release doesn't look anything like it originally did. It's revisionist color timing, something that now happens constantly. We all know it happens. many DP's and directors admit to it, proudly.
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post #202 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

It's revisionist color timing, something that now happens constantly. We all know it happens. many DP's and directors admit to it, proudly.

You're just not with it, man. The DPs and directors are obviously the final word on what these films should look like on home video, right? Right?
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post #203 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 09:40 AM
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You're just not with it, man. The DPs and directors are obviously the final word on what these films should look like on home video, right? Right?
The final state of the theatrical release is the final word on what these films should look like on home video.

Any after the fact tinkering should be restricted to *optional* cuts.
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post #204 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R_STL View Post

You're just not with it, man. The DPs and directors are obviously the final word on what these films should look like on home video, right? Right?
As 'Deviation' stated above. The theatrical prints are the final version. Anything beyond that is revisionist tinkering, something now done constantly due to the new tools at these filmmaker's disposal.

Look at French Connection. The Blu Ray was a disaster. So much so that the DP on it went ballistic and the studio quietly set upon releasing a 'remastered' edition.

The Terminator's new scan is impressive. The detail is astonishing. But the colors are not what were show in theaters.

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post #205 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

The case is most definitely closed and some of you need to stop living in complete denial.

Well, that's it, people- definitive word.

Some guy on the internet has now said it.


Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

I don't feel special...
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post #206 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Not the same frame but I went somewhere between the full red and the pink of the old transfer, again this is my first encode not the final
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/148796

Is it supposed to look contrast boosted?
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post #207 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Again, not finished was just purely colour timing and nothing else first run.
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post #208 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 10:41 AM
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Doesn't really look so impressive to me:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/148673


Looks like they just did a lot of filtering to the same old transfer. Look at the smoke and see the white bloom in the new transfer ^ Looks like contrast boosted sharpened and grained in those screen caps, but that's about it. I can't see any more real detail.

Anyway, just an opinion based on a quick peek.
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post #209 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

The colors on this new transfer may not be 100% exact, but they are VERY, VERY close to the way The Terminator looked originally. As close as an automated digital process can produce. Way closer than any old dusty, faded, inaccurate 35mm presentations anyone on this board had seen. Or the pathetic previous home video releases. This is according to a third party film preservationist and historian, the director of the film, the DP of the film, and the studio. The case is most definitely closed and some of you need to stop living in complete denial. The new transfer is breathtaking.

MMmmm, too many verys there. Reinforces further Cameron's trademark cool palette, yes but not accurate to its original color timing.
You really need to keep your narratives straight; is it Cameron supervised frame by frame and color corrected this transfer or is it an automated digital process?

What Torsten Kaiser described was not whether it was automated but whether the grading was done globally or shot-by-shot. He further addresses many variables to why results for transfers and masters can vary so widely.

His tweaking of a few caps of the transfer to conform closer to a Deluxe print is most likely what is 'VERY, VERY close to the way The Terminator looked originally."

Do you have any references for the DP directly addressing the new transfer?

No one is debating the transfer's merits in significantly improved detail, solely the changes in the color timing. Some do not care for it while others are content.

Although I have not watched the film in years and do not have the mono track ingrained into my memory as others, there seems to be quite a few people who disagree agree with you in the disparity between the mono and 5.1 mixes. Who is correct and who is in denial?

Best Regards
KvE

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post #210 of 640 Old 10-03-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

The colors on this new transfer may not be 100% exact, but they are VERY, VERY close to the way The Terminator looked originally. As close as an automated digital process can produce. Way closer than any old dusty, faded, inaccurate 35mm presentations anyone on this board had seen. Or the pathetic previous home video releases. This is according to a third party film preservationist and historian, the director of the film, the DP of the film, and the studio. The case is most definitely closed and some of you need to stop living in complete denial. The new transfer is breathtaking.

Quoted for truth.

UK Blu is simply amazing.
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