NetFlix RedBox BD's Without DTS-HD Master Audio / DD 5.1 Instead - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by laststop311 View Post

honestly I don't hear that huge of a difference between dd 5.1 and dts-hd ma. Guess you need super expensive audio setups to really hear a difference so it doesn't matter to me. I prefer illegally obtaining movies for free than paying anything anyways though.

That's a fairly bold statement to make on a public forum ..

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post #272 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

That's a fairly bold statement to make on a public forum ..

LOL - it's been made more times than I can count.
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post #273 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by padnfain View Post

But your choosing to not own and only keep it for a viewing or 2. This thread makes me laugh quite a bit and nobody here has brought up the real issue why this is going on and think its being done to slight them which is laughable. The studios have had their movie sales decline due to redbox and are doing what they can to give them an inferior product(yet still a nearly comparable product that 95-99% of the viewers will never notice). If the people in this thread so crave the features not on the disks nothing is holding them back from purchasing them or going to a b&m rental location that will have normal copies. If a few dollars is to much to ask then enjoy nearly identical redbox copy even though some claim its very important to them the quality of the audio.. If it was the copy so no money is lost by the studios. so important pony up the extra cash do something about it. . If that money is to much to ask for those features you were never going to purchase and just choose to want to cry that even though they are getting a fantastic deal on the movie for a rental its not perfect so boo hoo. . And now some here are saying those greedy studios.. Like those movies make themselves.. It is a business that is designed to make money and many times their product does not turn a profit. I wonder if some here can only think of themselves like where they work and produce something trying to get a profit on what their company sells.. Ever think that who is buying that product thinks they are being gouged even though it pays the employees who works there's bills and not a whole lot more?
Again nobody is forcing you to rent from redbox and take a chance at getting a slightly leser quality audio.. That is your choice and you are saving money by renting there. By the way do some due diligence between the studios and redbox and you will see how well they get along.

A large percentage of those of us that take the time to both post on AVS as well as piece together a quality system have a strong, and in my case, a very long term interest in the gear as well as the source .. I've been in this "hobby" for about 45 years ..

Thus, we do like to maximize the enjoyment we get based on our investment .. and, not all media is a buy .. some is simply only worth a rent ..

The idea here is, as Lee has said, what's next .. ??

I don't need a lesson in the economics of running a company .. I do that every day, 6 days a week .. and I don't think anyone begrudges the studios a profit .. that's what keeps bringing us the entertainment in the first place ..

There really is no right and wrong answer, and at this point, we can't even say that it will be a trend .. but I think we can count on more experimentation by the studios in an effort to beef up sales .. It's highly likely that the actual physical medium will continue to fall flatter in sales than the studios would like, BD has not even come close to the DVD sales curve within the same timeframe of CE release, PPV, VOD remain higher priced by far than a RB or NF rental and have a much higher profit margin for the studios as well .. and that's where they would like to see a good portion of the business go ..

So, we continue to see business enter the streaming market .. and with streaming growth, we, as consumers, are proving that convienience trumps quality .. just like we did with the music business .. so, is it any wonder that rental copes encoded with a lesser audio quality begin to crop up .. ?? NF / RB are the working mans rental these days .. and with B&M slowly going down, they will be a larger and larger portion of the market .. and the studios know that ..

Lastly .. if the cost of a new release stream dropped to under $2.00 on VOD / PPV how much growth would that segment then see .. ??

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post #274 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

LOL - it's been made more times than I can count.

I know .. I'm just always amazed when I see it ..

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post #275 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

That's a fairly bold statement to make on a public forum ..

This has been discussed a lot... For many titles, once level matched, experts with very expensive systems cannot tell the difference. Personally, I am more bummed about having two less channels vs lossy. But like I said, Redbox is so cheap that I will rent the title in DD 5.1 then decide if it is worth owning and buy a version that has a lossless track either used or on a sale.
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post #276 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

A large percentage of those of us that take the time to both post on AVS as well as piece together a quality system have a strong, and in my case, a very long term interest in the gear as well as the source .. I've been in this "hobby" for about 45 years ..
Thus, we do like to maximize the enjoyment we get based on our investment .. and, not all media is a buy .. some is simply only worth a rent ..
The idea here is, as Lee has said, what's next .. ??
I don't need a lesson in the economics of running a company .. I do that every day, 6 days a week .. and I don't think anyone begrudges the studios a profit .. that's what keeps bringing us the entertainment in the first place ..
There really is no right and wrong answer, and at this point, we can't even say that it will be a trend .. but I think we can count on more experimentation by the studios in an effort to beef up sales .. It's highly likely that the actual physical medium will continue to fall flatter in sales than the studios would like, BD has not even come close to the DVD sales curve within the same timeframe of CE release, PPV, VOD remain higher priced by far than a RB or NF rental and have a much higher profit margin for the studios as well .. and that's where they would like to see a good portion of the business go ..
So, we continue to see business enter the streaming market .. and with streaming growth, we, as consumers, are proving that convienience trumps quality .. just like we did with the music business .. so, is it any wonder that rental copes encoded with a lesser audio quality begin to crop up .. ?? NF / RB are the working mans rental these days .. and with B&M slowly going down, they will be a larger and larger portion of the market .. and the studios know that ..
Lastly .. if the cost of a new release stream dropped to under $2.00 on VOD / PPV how much growth would that segment then see .. ??

Great post. My 2 cents.. Very few people are going to lose sleep over a lossy 5.1 track vs a 7.1 lossless track, and I don't see many people rushing out and buying the title for $20 or so vs paying $1.50-3 to rent it cheap just to get the lossless 7.1 track. Some might, but very few I suspect and that means the studio really might find it not worth the effort in the future to keep doing this.

I don't really know what the studio was expecting from this experiment... I doubt it will have any meaningful impact on renting vs buying..
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post #277 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

This has been discussed a lot... For many titles, once level matched, experts with very expensive systems cannot tell the difference. Personally, I am more bummed about having two less channels vs lossy. But like I said, Redbox is so cheap that I will rent the title in DD 5.1 then decide if it is worth owning and buy a version that has a lossless track either used or on a sale.

I am verry much aware of the blind listening scenarios and what not .. and I don't really think that's the issue up for debate ..

Even assuming on a level matched system / running two exact same playback decks / with a silent AB switch actvated at random / if no consistent conclusion is reached .. that's not the point ..

The point here is perception / value added / consumer expectations / will it be a trend and, ultimately, will it do what the studios want it to do .. beef up sales on retail BD's ..

If Jack Daniels decided to offer a lower grade whiskey made from filtered tap water and it was only available at low end liquor stores, yet no one could really taste the difference .. you get the picture ..

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post #278 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Great post. My 2 cents.. Very few people are going to lose sleep over a lossy 5.1 track vs a 7.1 lossless track, and I don't see many people rushing out and buying the title for $20 or so vs paying $1.50-3 to rent it cheap just to get the lossless 7.1 track. Some might, but very few I suspect and that means the studio really might find it not worth the effort in the future to keep doing this.
I don't really know what the studio was expecting from this experiment... I doubt it will have any meaningful impact on renting vs buying..

I fully agree .. if there is, in fact, any impact on purchase numbers, it will not be measureable .. I would like to see some numbers on what the 28 / 56 day windows have done, which I also believe has been minimal if anything ..

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post #279 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I fully agree .. if there is, in fact, any impact on purchase numbers, it will not be measureable .. I would like to see some numbers on what the 28 / 56 day windows have done, which I also believe has been minimal if anything ..

Well the rental delays certainly have not prevented Redbox growth.... They have had very solid growth since the introduction of the delays. It did not really affect me. I just wait for the titles that I don't want to blind buy, or get sketchy reviews. There is so much content out there between my sat channels, and on demand, Redbox, Amazon Prime streaming, and my 300+ BD library that waiting even 56 days has little to no impact on me. I suspect most people feel the same way.
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post #280 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Well the rental delays certainly have not prevented Redbox growth.... They have had very solid growth since the introduction of the delays. It did not really affect me. I just wait for the titles that I don't want to blind buy, or get sketchy reviews. There is so much content out there between my sat channels, and on demand, Redbox, Amazon Prime streaming, and my 300+ BD library that waiting even 56 days has little to no impact on me. I suspect most people feel the same way.

Absolutely .. there is never any lack of content .. although I still get that "Gotta have it on Tuesday" urge, especially if it's a big release, I don't buy into the urge anymore ..

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post #281 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I thought in order for Dbox to work the title had to be encoded for it? My guess is Lionsgate stripped out lossless and Dbox motion code from Redbox, etc rental releases.
Netflix has a Blu-Ray surcharge because it costs more for them to buy a Blu-Ray disc vs a DVD. There is an added expense there and they are passing the expense on to Blu-Ray consumers how rent the movies. It seems fair to me. I agree it would be nice if they offered 3D, but I suspect that would be an additional expense since 3D BD's cost more on average than 2D.

The title is encoded, but it is done by D-BOX and has nothing to do with what's on the disc (well it can, but that's irrelevant to this complaint).

When they started the surcharge, there was a large retail price diff between DVDs and BluRays, and it was more of a niche market. Now it is a small or non-existent difference and not a niche market (of course they have made it niche with the surcharge, I'm sure many people with BluRay players still rent only DVDs). So I don't buy the excuse.

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post #282 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I am verry much aware of the blind listening scenarios and what not .. and I don't really think that's the issue up for debate ..
Even assuming on a level matched system / running two exact same playback decks / with a silent AB switch actvated at random / if no consistent conclusion is reached .. that's not the point ..
The point here is perception / value added / consumer expectations / will it be a trend and, ultimately, will it do what the studios want it to do .. beef up sales on retail BD's ..
If Jack Daniels decided to offer a lower grade whiskey made from filtered tap water and it was only available at low end liquor stores, yet no one could really taste the difference .. you get the picture ..

Personally, I don't think it will have any tangible impact for the cheap rental companies like Redbox and Netflix. Most people rent from them for two main reasons. Price and convenience. I know people don't want to deal with the reality, but Netflix and Redbox have 100% impacted the studios bottom-line. Many of the studios would most likely wish that they would just go away so they could dictate prices and implement revenue sharing, but it is not happening.

If Redbox offerered two versions:
- Lossy audio 5.1 BD version for $1.50
- Lossless audio 7.1 BD version for $2.00

Which do you think most people would pick? Which is what happened to Hollywood Video, Blockbuster, etc near me, even with the rental delays that hit Redbox/Netflix but not Blockbuster. It had zero impact on Redbox and Netflix, and Blockbuster still was forced into being sold and closing the majority of their stores.
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post #283 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:27 PM
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I don't really know what the studio was expecting from this experiment... I doubt it will have any meaningful impact on renting vs buying..

This is what has me scratching my head. The only people that are going to notice it and get angry about it are the enthusiasts (like me). The 'average' consumer won't even notice it. The people 'stealing' it are usually downloading (or ripping) re-compressed audio and video versions that only take up a few GB and not the full quality BR version. The Hunger Games movie was my first experience with this. We had watched it in the theater initially and it didn't strike me or my wife as a 'keeper' movie that we would watch from time to time. After reading the books, I wanted to re-watch to see if I thought any different about owning the movie - only to immediately notice (and be disappointed by) the lower quality audio. Out of curiosity, I looked around the back alleys of the interwebs and pretty quickly found full quality blu ray rips of the retail disk. I would also bet that if I asked around I could find at least one friend or family member that owns the retail version that I could 'borrow' - so I don't see how this move could have any real impact on stopping theft by those determined not to pay.

Given the volume of disappointing junk being released these days, and the poor state of the movie-going experience (at least at the theaters around me), I have severely cut back on visits to the movie theater and rent almost 100% of the movies that I watch on blu ray before I decide if they are worth purchasing. Almost all of my purchases are of movies that I have either seen in theaters or rented first. We watched the dumbed down version of the movie, and I made my disappointment with the experience known to Blockbuster. All Lionsgate accomplished with me was angering me, and making the decision NOT to buy a very easy one.
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post #284 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I would like to see some numbers on what the 28 / 56 day windows have done, which I also believe has been minimal if anything ..

Odds are, if I am renting it first I haven't seen it yet. If I could wait for the BR release (vs. theater release) in the first place, I am not going to lose any sleep over waiting another month or two to rent the movie. Unless I've timed my rental returns right, I am going to have to wait that long after the rental is out anyway.
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post #285 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:38 PM
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Obviously the rental delay made very little impact. That's why studios keep try new things...
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post #286 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 01:45 PM
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Obviously the rental delay made very little impact. That's why studios keep try new things...

Yes, and I know I seem to come across as defending this, but providing lossy 5.1 tracks vs lossless 7.1 tracks is going to have even less impact than a rental delay. The studios, as usual, just don't get it. At this point Redbox and Netflix won and the more expensive rental options for optical disc did not, and they should embrace it and partner with Redbox and Netflix as much as possible. As the above poster mentioned, if they want me to buy more, they need to make more movies that are worth owning that higher replay value. The majority of movies have little replay value, hence why most of us don't mind waiting even with a rental delay.
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post #287 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 02:20 PM
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If past history has any indication, Studios never get it. The bottom line, they want to you pay a fee EVERYTIME you watch the movie which directly contradicts with the model of retail discs. If anything, they should work with rental companies to jack up the rental prices instead of forcing us to buy retail copies. In conclusion, Studios are run by bounch of idiots.
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post #288 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Personally, I don't think it will have any tangible impact for the cheap rental companies like Redbox and Netflix. Most people rent from them for two main reasons. Price and convenience. I know people don't want to deal with the reality, but Netflix and Redbox have 100% impacted the studios bottom-line. Many of the studios would most likely wish that they would just go away so they could dictate prices and implement revenue sharing, but it is not happening.
If Redbox offerered two versions:
- Lossy audio 5.1 BD version for $1.50
- Lossless audio 7.1 BD version for $2.00
Which do you think most people would pick? Which is what happened to Hollywood Video, Blockbuster, etc near me, even with the rental delays that hit Redbox/Netflix but not Blockbuster. It had zero impact on Redbox and Netflix, and Blockbuster still was forced into being sold and closing the majority of their stores.

Earlier in the thread, I suggested a "Super Premium Netflix Subscription" Level .. which would, essentially, get you the full retail version as well as any extras that would have come with the retail version .. for an additional fee, of course .. if such a service were offered, even in my case, I don't think it would mean that much to me unless it was maybe just a buck a month extra .. although I consider myself an audio and videophile (I use a 110" projection system with a 7.2 (2 subs)) .. I am also somewhat frugal when it comes to things that, to me anyway, provide little incremental benefit .. smile.gif .. sorry, I know that sounds against the grain of many on the thread, but the key word is "little incremental benefit" ..

And your BB comparisson is correct .. BB was in so deep with the studios that they really did do everything humanly possible to make it viable, all for naught ..

And as has been mentioned as well, rental has been the enemy of Holyywood from the get go .. instead of embracing it, they have always tried ways to minimize it .. remember "self destruct DVD's .. ?? eek.gif

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post #289 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 02:42 PM
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Don't forget DIVX discs before that. I hope those who poneyed up to pay for a Gold disc still can play it today smile.gif
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post #290 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 02:42 PM
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Rented Hunger Games, good flick, but, I just bought an Oppo 93 and want all I paid for!! These idiots are shooting them selves in the foot if you ask me.
Is there a difference in the audio? It's LOSSLESS!! If you can't note a difference then sell the bose and sony stuff you have. With out compression, it's day and nite! I will not be renting any thing that they choose to deny me lossless audio. The whole reason behind buying an Oppo.
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post #291 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Yes, and I know I seem to come across as defending this, but providing lossy 5.1 tracks vs lossless 7.1 tracks is going to have even less impact than a rental delay. The studios, as usual, just don't get it. At this point Redbox and Netflix won and the more expensive rental options for optical disc did not, and they should embrace it and partner with Redbox and Netflix as much as possible. As the above poster mentioned, if they want me to buy more, they need to make more movies that are worth owning that higher replay value. The majority of movies have little replay value, hence why most of us don't mind waiting even with a rental delay.

I would venture to guess that quality content is not as important as you would think .. to many, "Jackass" is quality content .. smile.gif

It's the sheer volume of availability that hurts retail sales .. as well, during the initial growth phase of the DVD, it was supplanting VHS .. and many, including me, bought into the upgrade hype .. and, it was not just hype .. there was a substantial quality improvement ..

Fast forward to now when you can about watch whatever is out after the theatrical run as long as you have even a marginally fast Web connection .. and the requirements to get what will be considered an HD stream will be going down ..

VUDU is commonly offering new content ahead of DVD/BD release .. in some cases, while the film is still at the local Mega Plex .. you can bet Walmart talks and the studios listen ..

Theater tickets have escalated .. if a family of 4 can watch a new film / unreleased on disk / for 15 bucks on the fly .. well, why not .. ??

HDNet, Mark Cubans network, routinely offers a film or two each month that has not yet come out .. and some are pretty good films ..

3-D was supposed to be the next big cash cow for the studios .. and what happened to that for at home viewers .. ??

So, is replay value that valuable .. ?? When you can watch it about anytime and you really don't have to own it .. or go anywhere to get it ..

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post #292 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 08:56 PM
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I guess I am part of the problem in the eyes of the studios.

I have over 1000 DVDs, and one Blu-Ray set (Star Wars box). When BluRay and HD-DVD came out I knew that it was going to be another intermediary step (cash grab) and that I wasn't going to start buying disks, only to want to replace them all when 4K comes out on 100GB BDs - which could have started three years ago if the studios wanted to. I rent BDs frequently. Perhaps next time I see DD or DTS light up on my receiver while playing a BluRay I will call-up Redbox and request my money back for distributing a BluRay movie that does not meet BluRay specifications. Maybe 10-20k phone calls will motivate some of the suits.
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post #293 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

Perhaps next time I see DD or DTS light up on my receiver while playing a BluRay I will call-up Redbox and request my money back for distributing a BluRay movie that does not meet BluRay specifications.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that having a lossless audio track has ever been part of the official specifications for Blu-ray...
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post #294 of 992 Old 10-01-2012, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by svenge View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that having a lossless audio track has ever been part of the official specifications for Blu-ray...

Correct.

As long as a BD has DD, DTS or PCM it meets BD spec.

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post #295 of 992 Old 10-02-2012, 07:03 AM
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The way I see it, we have 4 options.

1. Make a class action lawsuit

2. Illegally obtain all of our favorite movies

3. Stop renting or buying movies

4. Do nothing
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post #296 of 992 Old 10-02-2012, 07:33 AM
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I wish I would get a Blu Ray rental from block buster that I don't have to constantly wash with rest of my dirty dish before tossing it in my Oppo rolleyes.gif 3ot 5 disc usually are horribly scratched were I miss the point of a few flicks, just horrible...I wonder what the heck are people doing with these disc using them as ash trays? mad.gif


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post #297 of 992 Old 10-02-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337P337 View Post

The way I see it, we have 4 options.
1. Make a class action lawsuit
2. Illegally obtain all of our favorite movies
3. Stop renting or buying movies
4. Do nothing

I'm not down with 2, but generall we're great at doing option 4 smile.gif

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post #298 of 992 Old 10-02-2012, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337P337 View Post

The way I see it, we have 4 options.
1. Make a class action lawsuit
2. Illegally obtain all of our favorite movies
3. Stop renting or buying movies
4. Do nothing

5. Rent from another source other than Redbox or Netflix.
6. If lossless is that important to you, you can buy the title either new or wait for a used copy.
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post #299 of 992 Old 10-02-2012, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

I wish I would get a Blu Ray rental from block buster that I don't have to constantly wash with rest of my dirty dish before tossing it in my Oppo rolleyes.gif 3ot 5 disc usually are horribly scratched were I miss the point of a few flicks, just horrible...I wonder what the heck are people doing with these disc using them as ash trays? mad.gif
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We'll consider that additional added value .. wink.gif

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post #300 of 992 Old 10-02-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337P337 View Post

The way I see it, we have 4 options.
1. Make a class action lawsuit
2. Illegally obtain all of our favorite movies
3. Stop renting or buying movies
4. Do nothing
Calling to complain doesn't seem like a reasonable option to you, huh?

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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