NetFlix RedBox BD's Without DTS-HD Master Audio / DD 5.1 Instead - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by northreign View Post

Thank you for pointing out what I also must be hearing. I'll leave you to it.

Just how many names do you post under here anyway?

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post #362 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Can you tell me how exactly a BOSE audio system, or MONSTER HDMI cable worth the extra pennies smile.gif

They do what they do. There's a market for them that works for them.
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Disc rental, just like every other rentals, is a different business model. It doesn't mean rental = cheap. Do you really think your rental car only comes 3 wheels and none of the safe features vs the car you buy yourself.

No, your rental car no longer comes with heated seats or other optional luxury "features". It still runs the same way.

Your rental discs are still 1080p video with HD audio. They aren't defective in any way.
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The fact is you have nothing to back up your claim.

Pot, kettle, etc.

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post #363 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 05:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

For the first years of BD's existence several studios didn't even DO lossless at all (or did it erratically). LionsGate's titles had no lossless at all.
How about them apples?

Totally irrelevant to the discussion. I am surprised you even brought it up.
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Again, you're paying little to nothing and expecting full retail privileges. The gravy train has ended.

We are paying what the Rentailer is asking us to pay. They have set the price, be a daily fee or a monthly subscription fee.

At this time it is just Lionsgate doing this and not on all BD rental releases. Their output is tiny compared to the major studios. The studios have not put up a united front on anything negative when it comes to rentals. Each is doing it's own thing. And i don't see this changing in the foreseeable future either.

I am sure that most will be able to stand listening to DD5.1 for a single viewing because that is all they feel that movie is worth . . . a single viewing.
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post #364 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Totally irrelevant to the discussion. I am surprised you even brought it up.

The implication was that all BDs have had lossless since the beginning. As you and I know, that isn't the case.

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post #365 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

They do what they do. There's a market for them that works for them.

Exactly, you belong to the market that like to buy BDs. Others belong to the market that like to rent them. Two different markets and the costs are not directly comparable.
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No, your rental car no longer comes with heated seats or other optional luxury "features". It still runs the same way.
Last time I rented, they come with all the bells and whistles (Blurtooth et al). In fact, if I'm going to buy the same exact model, it comes with the same exact equipments.
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Your rental discs are still 1080p video with HD audio. They aren't defective in any way.

We are billed and charged for BD disc, not some half ass BD disc. So we expect nothing less. If rental companies and studios clearly marked them as such before we rent them, I have to problem with that.
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post #366 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 07:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

The implication was that all BDs have had lossless since the beginning. As you and I know, that isn't the case.

That was NOT the implication. He said "years" and that is a factual statement. All you keep doing is moving the goalposts to fit your own arguments. rolleyes.gif
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post #367 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

You're hearing a volume difference. Raise your volume 4dB for DD or lower it by that much for DTS and the "immediate" difference will disappear.
Pro Logic is a surround mode. Dolby Digital is a codec. It can be 1.0 mono all the way to 5.1

It's more than just a volume difference. It just doesn't sound the same. Maybe it is a different mix or maybe something in the equipment, but even at the slightly higher than DVD bit rate the dd track isn't as full and dynamic. It is not a case of me switching back and forth, but a case of having the Dolby digital track being the initial (or only) track, and just not sounding right.

About the 'crank it up 4db' comment, if the two tracks are identical (just one is compressed) how can one be at a different db level? Maybe what I am hearing is different dynamic range or a mix difference inherent in droping the nominal volume by 4 db.

As to pro logic vs dd, you are either missing my point or intentionally obfuscating. I can tell the difference between lossless and plain old Dolby digital, just like I can hear the difference between a matrixed pro logic track and true discreet surround.
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post #368 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

That was NOT the implication. He said "years" and that is a factual statement. All you keep doing is moving the goalposts to fit your own arguments. rolleyes.gif

I don't even know what you're trying to argue. rolleyes.gif

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post #369 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Last time I rented, they come with all the bells and whistles (Blurtooth et al). In fact, if I'm going to buy the same exact model, it comes with the same exact equipments

What is "Blurtooth" exactly anyway? Jaws in 240p?

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We are billed and charged for BD disc, not some half ass BD disc. So we expect nothing less. If rental companies and studios clearly marked them as such before we rent them, I have to problem with that.

No, you are paying a rental fee. You are not paying for a BD.

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post #370 of 992 Old 10-04-2012, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BartMan01 View Post

It's more than just a volume difference. It just doesn't sound the same. Maybe it is a different mix or maybe something in the equipment, but even at the slightly higher than DVD bit rate the dd track isn't as full and dynamic. It is not a case of me switching back and forth, but a case of having the Dolby digital track being the initial (or only) track, and just not sounding right.

Unless you're making an apples to apples comparison, at the same exact volume, the comparisons are skewed and rendered void. You would need to compare a lossless track to a 640k DD track at the same exact levels and reliably tell the difference without knowing what the source is.
In compression codecs, a difference of an additional 192kbps of information (DVD 448 to BD 640) is very large.
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About the 'crank it up 4db' comment, if the two tracks are identical (just one is compressed) how can one be at a different db level? Maybe what I am hearing is different dynamic range or a mix difference inherent in droping the nominal volume by 4 db.
As to pro logic vs dd, you are either missing my point or intentionally obfuscating. I can tell the difference between lossless and plain old Dolby digital, just like I can hear the difference between a matrixed pro logic track and true discreet surround.

DialNorm lowers the overall volume by an average of -4dB. A 3dB difference requires double the power. I your receiver is outputting 50 watts peak with one source and 100 watts peak with another you're going to hear the difference, even if the tracks are identical (except in level).

The dynamic range is the same, unless you have DRC (Night Mode) engaged.

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post #371 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

No, you are paying a rental fee. You are not paying for a BD.

It makes no difference. Consider me and 10 of my friends co-owned the BD. That's called rental. Buy retail is called private copy. Do you actually send studio addition $ if you lend your private copy to your family or friends since you are so concerns about Studios?
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post #372 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn

Really .. ?? A big difference .. ?? I'll concede that some may hear a difference .. but I'd like to know what defines big .. ??
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Originally Posted by BartMan01 View Post

It's big enough on my system that I can tell when I am getting the Dolby digital vs MA-HD track. Dont know if I can say the same about dd plus. To me the difference compares to that between pro-logic and Dolby digital.

I'm not trying to take you to task here and add to the pile on .. however ..

Is it more nuanced .. ?? Is the soundstage deeper .. ?? Is there more transparency .. ?? Tighter and deeper bass .. ?? More enveloping .. ??

I'd just like to know what you are hearing that makes a big difference .. and, unless you are running A / B concurrent feeds a humans sonic memory is very short ..

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post #373 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Originally Posted by mgkdragn
Really .. ?? A big difference .. ?? I'll concede that some may hear a difference .. but I'd like to know what defines big .. ??
I'm not trying to take you to task here and add to the pile on .. however ..
Is it more nuanced .. ?? Is the soundstage deeper .. ?? Is there more transparency .. ?? Tighter and deeper bass .. ?? More enveloping .. ??
I'd just like to know what you are hearing that makes a big difference .. and, unless you are running A / B concurrent feeds a humans sonic memory is very short ..

There are people that can claim they can hear the difference with lossless tracks regarding bitstream vs PCM. I think what most people are really hearing is the higher volume level and are not level matching. I have seen people swear up and down that a lossless DTS-HD-MA track was superior to a lossless TrueHD or PCM track...

I have also have had people tell me that there is a huge difference between a $5 Monoprice HDMI cable and a $120 Monster HDMI cable...

Maybe I am doing something wrong.. When I level match I am not hearing these dramatic difference between lossy and lossless with my setup. So somebody give me a scene where this huge difference can be heard between lossy and lossless. I mean this is AVS, we should be able to prove one is drastically superior over the other and we have tools to measure and graph this.
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post #374 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 07:49 AM
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The problem is everybody has different setup and equipements (AVRs and speakers and even rooms as well as different hearing capabilities). There is really no way to claim one way or another that universally applies to everyone. A lot acustic stuff really isn't scientific measurement but subjective judgements. For example, a lot of audiophiles prefer the slighly distorted output from a tube amp vs a virtually distortionless modem amp. There is no scientific explanations to it.

For example, LPCM vs DTS HD-MA, some early players are not designed properly that poorly matches what receivers are anticipating. Typically receivers will automatically apply 10db boost to .1 LFE channel if it decodes them but will not do so if it receives LPCM. As a result, players are suppose to boost 10db on LFE channel if it decodes into LPCM before send out to receivers because typically LFE channe is lowered by 10db on disc audio track for added dynamic range. This mismatch can't be resolved by simply raise your receiver volumn.
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post #375 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

There are people that can claim they can hear the difference with lossless tracks regarding bitstream vs PCM. I think what most people are really hearing is the higher volume level and are not level matching. I have seen people swear up and down that a lossless DTS-HD-MA track was superior to a lossless TrueHD or PCM track...
I have also have had people tell me that there is a huge difference between a $5 Monoprice HDMI cable and a $120 Monster HDMI cable...
Maybe I am doing something wrong.. When I level match I am not hearing these dramatic difference between lossy and lossless with my setup. So somebody give me a scene where this huge difference can be heard between lossy and lossless. I mean this is AVS, we should be able to prove one is drastically superior over the other and we have tools to measure and graph this.

But louder is always better, no .. ?? wink.gif

I run a Marantz AV7005 7.2 preamp thru 4 Klipsch Cornwall Twos, a Klipsch RC-64 II Center and 2 Klipsch KS-525-THX Surround Speakers .. and two Def Tech SuperCube 6000 subs .. and two Carvin 4 Channel Amps .. all meticulously set up .. 2 PS3 Slims as sources .. I consider my system to be very revealing .. and in my own informal listening tests, I cannot detect substantial differences between DD and HD audio .. granted, at 65, I don't have the hearing anymore of a teenager, but I just can't buy into the idea that the difference is big enough to warrant outrage and the feeling of being insulted .. which have all been expressed on the thread ..

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post #376 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

But louder is always better, no .. ?? wink.gif
I run a Marantz AV7005 7.2 preamp thru 4 Klipsch Cornwall Twos, a Klipsch RC-64 II Center and 2 Klipsch KS-525-THX Surround Speakers .. and two Def Tech SuperCube 6000 subs .. and two Carvin 4 Channel Amps .. all meticulously set up .. 2 PS3 Slims as sources .. I consider my system to be very revealing .. and in my own informal listening tests, I cannot detect substantial differences between DD and HD audio .. granted, at 65, I don't have the hearing anymore of a teenager, but I just can't buy into the idea that the difference is big enough to warrant outrage and the feeling of being insulted .. which have all been expressed on the thread ..

My system is similar to yours. I have the AV7005, Outlaw 7700 amp, 6 Klipsch RB75s, RC-64 center and an HSU sub. Might not be the best system out there but it works really, really well. I have to admit that I do hear a subtle difference between the DTS MA and the DD5.1 on the Hunger Games (taking into account one is 7.1 and one is 5.1). Using Oppo 83 HDMI connection.
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post #377 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by badboi View Post

My system is similar to yours. I have the AV7005, Outlaw 7700 amp, 6 Klipsch RB75s, RC-64 center and an HSU sub. Might not be the best system out there but it works really, really well. I have to admit that I do hear a subtle difference between the DTS MA and the DD5.1 on the Hunger Games (taking into account one is 7.1 and one is 5.1). Using Oppo 83 HDMI connection.

I can't say that I don't hear subtle differences .. I just don't hear the big differences that cause some to post outrage / rip off / insulted commentary .. and I think much of this assumes a discrete mix as well .. IOW, if the HD mix just splits the DD mix and sends the split to the rear channels .. or is it a true, discrete mix .. ?? Either way, the rears never get a huge amount of activity and on a 5.1 mix, you're still getting what would have been sent to the rears on a 7.1 system ..

As well, I tend to attribute my hearing of slight differences as simply a slightly more open / enveloping quality .. not a substantial difference in actual SQ .. and only when those last two rear speakers actually have some activity ..

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post #378 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

If it's that important to you, you'd buy it. When you go to the movie theater, do you demand a lower ticket price because you're only going to watch it once? I buy all my BD movies for quite a few reasons, and believe we should have perks over someone that just rents. I don't go to movie theaters so I look at the price of a BD as 2 tickets to a movie theater. Seems fair to me.

I have very little interest in buying a movie that I will likely only watch once but when I watch a movie I want and expect the best quality picture and sound that movie was produced in if it's a Blu Ray.. If this becomes a common practice then I will rent very few Blu Ray movies and just rent the regular dvd.
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post #379 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by HTguru3 View Post

I have very little interest in buying a movie that I will likely only watch once but when I watch a movie I want and expect the best quality picture and sound that movie was produced in if it's a Blu Ray.. If this becomes a common practice then I will rent very few Blu Ray movies and just rent the regular dvd.

You might want to try alternate rental services like CineGreen. I seriously doubt they are getting the gimped rental versions Redbox and Netflix get.

Aside from that I cannot understand why in the world you would want the drastically inferior DVD version vs the Blu-Ray version for a savings of 30 cents per day. Especially when you factor that lossy Blu-Ray is a higher bitrate than lossy DVD. They are not the same quality for audio and clearly you get a big upgrade on video. It just seems kinda drastic for something you may or may not even be able to hear the difference on.
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post #380 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

snip . . .
As well, I tend to attribute my hearing of slight differences as simply a slightly more open / enveloping quality .. not a substantial difference in actual SQ .. and only when those last two rear speakers actually have some activity ..

The biggest difference I noticed on The Hunger Games between the two versions was the "boom" when the cannons went off. The rental version was definitely flat and hollow sounding, while the retail version had the sub "making some noise."

All in all though I can't really say that I'm in favor of what Lionsgate (and maybe other studios) are doing with rentals, but in the grand scheme of things, it's low on my list of things to get bothered with.
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post #381 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by badboi View Post

The biggest difference I noticed on The Hunger Games between the two versions was the "boom" when the cannons went off. The rental version was definitely flat and hollow sounding, while the retail version had the sub "making some noise."
All in all though I can't really say that I'm in favor of what Lionsgate (and maybe other studios) are doing with rentals, but in the grand scheme of things, it's low on my list of things to get bothered with.

I run a dual sub setup and that tends to compensate some LFE .. and, yes, I'd prefer to see the full meal deal on all disks, who wouldn't .. ?? All I'm saying is the substantial differences some have noted, to me anyway, are no real cause for the hate speak we see on some posts ..

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post #382 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I run a dual sub setup and that tends to compensate some LFE .. and, yes, I'd prefer to see the full meal deal on all disks, who wouldn't .. ?? All I'm saying is the substantial differences some have noted, to me anyway, are no real cause for the hate speak we see on some posts ..

I tried running dual subs but I could never get it "right" with my room setup and dimensions with it's odd layout and high ceilings. Spent almost a week pfaffing about with moving things about and finally called it a day and returned the extra HSU. Next house will definitely have the right room for my setup.

As for what Lionsgate is doing, not really liking it, but like I said, in the grand scheme of it all, it's not high on my list of things that really cheese me off. It's not going to make me go out and buy a movie just to get the HD audio either (unless it's a movie I must have). BTW, I got Hunger Games free after I rented the crippled version.
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post #383 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by badboi View Post

I tried running dual subs but I could never get it "right" with my room setup and dimensions with it's odd layout and high ceilings. Spent almost a week pfaffing about with moving things about and finally called it a day and returned the extra HSU. Next house will definitely have the right room for my setup.
As for what Lionsgate is doing, not really liking it, but like I said, in the grand scheme of it all, it's not high on my list of things that really cheese me off. It's not going to make me go out and buy a movie just to get the HD audio either (unless it's a movie I must have). BTW, I got Hunger Games free after I rented the crippled version.

My wife dragged me to the theater for HG .. I thought it was alright .. after I rented the NF version, (which clearly shows on the website as Dolby Digital 5.1) .. I bought her the retail BD .. yes, she liked it that much ..

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post #384 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 09:09 AM
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To prove that Netflix web site information can not be trusted (or worthless), my rental of Battleship arrived and it is DTS-HD MA 5.1 where NF site shows only DD 5.1.
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post #385 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn
Really .. ?? A big difference .. ?? I'll concede that some may hear a difference .. but I'd like to know what defines big .. ??
I'm not trying to take you to task here and add to the pile on .. however ..
Is it more nuanced .. ?? Is the soundstage deeper .. ?? Is there more transparency .. ?? Tighter and deeper bass .. ?? More enveloping .. ??
I'd just like to know what you are hearing that makes a big difference .. and, unless you are running A / B concurrent feeds a humans sonic memory is very short ..

I'm not doing any type of A/B comparison, or even looking for differences between tracks. The software that I use for playback auto selects the .mpls, the 'highest quality' audio track, and the correct subtitle track to use. It occasionally picks the wrong audio track and presents the plain Dolby Digital track as opposed to the uncompressed track (HD or LPCM). Without knowing that it failed to grab the uncompressed track, it just doesn't 'sound right' to me which leads me to double check which audio track is selected and find that it is not the uncompressed one. I would describe the sound as fuller/more detailed and more enveloping between uncompressed and regular Dolby Digital. It could be differences in the mix (maybe the HD track was DTS and the mix for that was 'better' than the Dolby Digital track), it could be the way my equipment processes the different formats. It could just be that Dolby Digital (even at 640) has problems with some types of sounds and my brain is picking up on those.

I also don't always set the volume to the exact same level, I start somewhere between -14db and -7db on my receiver and adjust if it is too quiet or too loud for my mood or the time of day, so I don't think it is just the 4db difference in volume that is making it 'not sound right' to the point I double check the selections.

Best way I can describe it is to compare it to the sonic difference between the old matrixed pro-logic vs. discreet dolby digital we used to get on LaserDisk and then DVD. When the DVD defaulted to pro-logic, it just didn't 'sound right' to me based on what I was expecting and I could almost always tell it had done so without looking at anything. There is not usually an 'in your face' difference between the two. My wife would probably never notice the difference unless I talked her in to hearing something.

The most recent example I ran in to was the Hunger Games BluRay from BlockBuster. I put the movie in, and from the start it just didn't sound right (based on what I remembered from seeing it in the theater and based on the glowing praise the audio was receiving in the reviews). I went to double check the audio track and found it was on Dolby Digital with no uncompressed track to be found. Stopped playback and threw it in my PS3 to get the full menus only to find out there was no uncompressed track at all.
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post #386 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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To prove that Netflix web site information can not be trusted (or worthless), my rental of Battleship arrived and it is DTS-HD MA 5.1 where NF site shows only DD 5.1.

That would then be a good thing .. ?? No .. ?? Always nice to get more than you thought you'd get ..

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post #387 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 09:57 AM
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That would then be a good thing .. ?? No .. ?? Always nice to get more than you thought you'd get ..

Not really. It only means I should never look at what NF site says. Because currently, half the titles in my queue is listed as DD 5.1 only and now I can be sure that's not accurate. So basically you still have no idea what audio tacks it comes until you received it. My point to you is that pointing to NF site info is useless because it is not correct in a lot of cases.
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post #388 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Not really. It only means I should never look at what NF site says. Because currently, half the titles in my queue is listed as DD 5.1 only and now I can be sure that's not accurate. So basically you still have no idea what audio tacks it comes until you received it. My point to you is that pointing to NF site info is useless because it is not correct in a lot of cases.

I guess I'm just a glass is half full guy .. wink.gif

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post #389 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 10:08 AM
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The problem is everybody has different setup and equipements (AVRs and speakers and even rooms as well as different hearing capabilities). There is really no way to claim one way or another that universally applies to everyone. A lot acustic stuff really isn't scientific measurement but subjective judgements. For example, a lot of audiophiles prefer the slighly distorted output from a tube amp vs a virtually distortionless modem amp. There is no scientific explanations to it.
For example, LPCM vs DTS HD-MA, some early players are not designed properly that poorly matches what receivers are anticipating. Typically receivers will automatically apply 10db boost to .1 LFE channel if it decodes them but will not do so if it receives LPCM. As a result, players are suppose to boost 10db on LFE channel if it decodes into LPCM before send out to receivers because typically LFE channe is lowered by 10db on disc audio track for added dynamic range. This mismatch can't be resolved by simply raise your receiver volumn.

Right but if there are drastic audible differences between tracks I don't see why this could not be measured and graphed on something like a waterfall chart. You are talking about one track having more dynamics than the other, after level matching, you should be able to measure and graph them, no?

I do agree with you that there are many dynamics, and hearing is certainly one of them. I have great hearding, but my father abused his hearing in the constuction industry and has to wear hearing aids to hear anything. He could careless between lossy and lossless obviously smile.gif

I think much of what people think they are hearing is either level matching issues, or placebo effect. I am not joking. There are people that will swear up and down that a $5K Kimber cable makes all the difference in an audio setup and claim there are massive differences in sound vs using a higher quality cable that costs less than $50...

I have done double blind cable tests, and double blind amplifier tests, and it saved me a ton of cash as I was not able to distinguish between amp A ($300), B ($600) and C ($1500) . Three of us did the testing and all three of us failed to pick the most expensive amp.. Power is power. If the amps have similar power, impedance, and distortion levels, you would be hard pressed to hear a difference.

Now if you stuck a 4ohm rated speaker on a 50 watt 8ohm rated amp and drove it hard vs a 4ohm speaker on a 300 watt 4 ohm rated amp and drove it hard, then yes, spend the money and get the amp that is rated for your speakers.
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post #390 of 992 Old 10-05-2012, 10:20 AM
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All in all though I can't really say that I'm in favor of what Lionsgate (and maybe other studios) are doing with rentals, but in the grand scheme of things, it's low on my list of things to get bothered with.

First world problems.


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