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post #541 of 992 Old 10-16-2012, 02:58 PM
 
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You'll note that I haven't disagreed with what you are saying...just saying what I think their strategy is. They should have created an industry streaming company similar to epix but on a bigger scale years ago to handle just one more channel of their distriution. But that would have required them to invest their own money (something their model usually prohibits) and they were probably advised against it on AA grounds. But they don't want the Comcasts and TW's to be the front-ends on their content; there is too much leverage and deep pockets there. While I agree with your view on NF and RB in the short term, I think the studios are working what they perceive to be an endgame that will deal with the rental houses and the cable front-ends. They have been wrong quite a few times before but for the first time technology is there to allow things to go their way if they don't mess it up too badly and too soon.

You have to have consumers embrace your "new technology" for what you are suggesting to work. And consumers are not embracing it. Here we are in 2012 and if you looked at the DEG's 1/2 of 2012 report, OD (rental and sales) was $5.988B out of a total spending of $8.405B . . . 71%. And that's with a 26+% drop in OD rental revenue.

Consumers are embracing SVOD - like NF, Hulu + or Amazon Prime because it's cheap. They sure aren't buying their movies electronically and as far as renting them (VOD) - keep in mind that the VOD category also includes all those wrestling and boxing PPV events.

The only thing Hollywood has in it's favor is that EST (Electronic Sell Thru) is not covered by the First Sale Doctrine . . . today. And EST is a very small portion of the total home video revenue market - first half of 2012 . . . 4%
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post #542 of 992 Old 10-16-2012, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

You'll note that I haven't disagreed with what you are saying...just saying what I think their strategy is. They should have created an industry streaming company similar to epix but on a bigger scale years ago to handle just one more channel of their distriution. But that would have required them to invest their own money (something their model usually prohibits) and they were probably advised against it on AT grounds. But they don't want the Comcasts and TW's to be the front-ends on their content; there is too much leverage and deep pockets there. While I agree with your view on NF and RB in the short term, I think the studios are working what they perceive to be an endgame that will deal with the rental houses and the cable front-ends. They have been wrong quite a few times before but for the first time technology is there to allow things to go their way if they don't mess it up too badly and too soon.

While I can't disagree with the crux of what you're saying (remember self destruct DVD's.. ??) .. if any of that comes to pass, it's going to take a consolidated effort by all studios .. and even at that, it would be a very long range attempt time wise .. exclusivity is a nice concept and perhaps possible ..

The example I have used in the past is this .. if VUDU or any other provider would offer $1.00 - $1.50 24 hour streaming rental on the highest quality feed, for new releases as well as catalog titles, I'd likely use them consistently .. and that's where the market would move as well, IMO .. at least for those of us that have enough bandwidth to do it ..

And that scenario could hurt NF / RB and B&M ..

I just don't see it happening any time in the forseeable future ..

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post #543 of 992 Old 10-16-2012, 05:54 PM
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I am not sure why you (Lee) are on OD sales. I think all would agree that in total, at present, they are on the decline and could continue to go that way. I also said I am not sure why their long term strategy would be to even do OD sales, particularly down the road getting to 4k encodes. (Talk about piracy!) The question this thread posed was why would LG or other studios not put DTSMA or DTD on rental discs. Other than the "because some bonehead pulled the wrong files for encode" answer or the studio was license restricted for some strange reason from doing so the question was why would they do that. The answer is we really don't know. Maybe because the NF or BB contract allows them to buy down, maybe because the studio gave priority to another channel, whatever. To me, the interesting long-term question is that maybe they have figured out or are trying as a test case the creation of encodes for VOD/streaming channels as a lower quality tier than full out BD discs they sell (not rent). This is just speculation on my part. If their model is create, distribute, sell, lease (and that is how I see it based on what they say, you may see what they do differently) then it makes sense that they create a "master" for VOD/streaming channels that is uniformly base and then if a channel of distribution or a given competitor in a given channel wants to pay more for the audio or video encode they provide it. Kind of like other business models we see. "You want the up audio, up video, extras, etc. then here is the rate sheet for that feature above the base product." We see this in s/w, cars, music, etc. I see them saying why don't we do that. Now maybe I am giving them too much credit but this gives them channel control, margin enhancement opportunities, piracy protection (to a limited degree), etc. Whether is actually works or is really what they want is another thing altogether.
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post #544 of 992 Old 10-16-2012, 07:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

I am not sure why you (Lee) are on OD sales. I think all would agree that in total, at present, they are on the decline and could continue to go that way. I also said I am not sure why their long term strategy would be to even do OD sales, particularly down the road getting to 4k encodes. (Talk about piracy!) The question this thread posed was why would LG or other studios not put DTSMA or DTD on rental discs. Other than the "because some bonehead pulled the wrong files for encode" answer or the studio was license restricted for some strange reason from doing so the question was why would they do that. The answer is we really don't know. Maybe because the NF or BB contract allows them to buy down, maybe because the studio gave priority to another channel, whatever. To me, the interesting long-term question is that maybe they have figured out or are trying as a test case the creation of encodes for VOD/streaming channels as a lower quality tier than full out BD discs they sell (not rent). This is just speculation on my part. If their model is create, distribute, sell, lease (and that is how I see it based on what they say, you may see what they do differently) then it makes sense that they create a "master" for VOD/streaming channels that is uniformly base and then if a channel of distribution or a given competitor in a given channel wants to pay more for the audio or video encode they provide it. Kind of like other business models we see. "You want the up audio, up video, extras, etc. then here is the rate sheet for that feature above the base product." We see this in s/w, cars, music, etc. I see them saying why don't we do that. Now maybe I am giving them too much credit but this gives them channel control, margin enhancement opportunities, piracy protection (to a limited degree), etc. Whether is actually works or is really what they want is another thing altogether.

LOL - why . . . are you discusssing VOD/streaming? It has nothing to do with what Lionsgate is doing. We ALL know why they are doing what they are doing, by not including HD Audio on some of their high profile BD rental titles . . . they want YOU to buy them . . . not rent them.

Try the KISS principal. When you hear hoofbeats, you don't think of zebras do you? biggrin.gif
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post #545 of 992 Old 10-16-2012, 08:43 PM
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19 pages later, I'm sure this has been beaten to the ground, but my two cents:

Yes the studios/distributors make money from big firms like Redbox or Netflix for buying their discs - but then Redbox/Netflix turn around and make even more money off that single investment than the distributor. Kind of like the used video game analogy. The studios are in the business of selling a product to direct consumers, and being the end result of "where the money goes." Since they've realized that they can 'do something about' the fact that people are okay with renting discs rather than buying them, it opens them up to printing "crippled" versions including any combination of:

Lossy audio
Lower bitrate video encode (e.g. rental BD25 vs. retail BD50)
Limited special features
Forced advertisements
Only one cut of a film while others exist (e.g. rental with a theatrical cut, retail with extended cut)

With cases like this, the studio/distributor is banking on you to like the film well enough that you go out and buy it, to regain whatever might have been lost on the rental version. It's a business. Netflix is not the company in charge of printing these discs, they simply adhere to whatever the studio dictates ("You want this movie? You're only authorized to send this version of the disc"). As many have said - the general public probably doesn't care about lossless audio tracks, unless they're used to seeing their AVR light up differently. That said, I'm upset that this has become "A thing," but I will probably just deal with it or buy the retail disc.
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post #546 of 992 Old 10-25-2012, 09:39 PM
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I got my copy of Battleship tonight from Netflix. Seems this disc did not get the front 3 channels recorded, it's like the surround channels are mixed in there instead. No dialog except that coming usually from the surrounds. Lovely. Tried reloading nothing. Setup is correct. Although I wonder if the dialog is actually worth it smile.gif Unfortunately except for certain scenes the sound is very limited...so back it goes.

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post #547 of 992 Old 10-25-2012, 10:54 PM
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I got my copy of Battleship tonight from Netflix. Seems this disc did not get the front 3 channels recorded, it's like the surround channels are mixed in there instead. No dialog except that coming usually from the surrounds. Lovely. Tried reloading nothing. Setup is correct. Although I wonder if the dialog is actually worth it smile.gif Unfortunately except for certain scenes the sound is very limited...so back it goes.

Strange. I watched a Netflix Battleship Blu-ray last week, and the sound seemed fine.

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post #548 of 992 Old 10-25-2012, 10:58 PM
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I got my copy of Battleship tonight from Netflix. Seems this disc did not get the front 3 channels recorded, it's like the surround channels are mixed in there instead. No dialog except that coming usually from the surrounds. Lovely. Tried reloading nothing. Setup is correct. Although I wonder if the dialog is actually worth it smile.gif Unfortunately except for certain scenes the sound is very limited...so back it goes.

Strange. I watched a Netflix Battleship Blu-ray last week, and the sound seemed fine.

Who knows if they were from the same manufacturer? Probably just a defective disc but weird that it was such a specific defect. Doesn't seem new either. I popped in the other that came, Wrath of the Titans, and it's fine...very nice soundtrack.

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post #549 of 992 Old 10-26-2012, 12:00 AM
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Update. Even though I tried twice, and the disc appeared fine, I tried a third time (after reporting it to Netflix of course) but cleaned what looked to be a clean disc....now the sound is fine. Anyone ever have a disc that was dirty and would play the video just fine, and only part of the audio? First for me altho I'm relatively new to BluRay compared to some....only have used BluRays for about 1.5 years now.

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post #550 of 992 Old 10-26-2012, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Update. Even though I tried twice, and the disc appeared fine, I tried a third time (after reporting it to Netflix of course) but cleaned what looked to be a clean disc....now the sound is fine. Anyone ever have a disc that was dirty and would play the video just fine, and only part of the audio? First for me altho I'm relatively new to BluRay compared to some....only have used BluRays for about 1.5 years now.

I've never heard of or experienced .. my only guess would be some glitch in the player and / or the AVR that was caused by some strategically placed residue on the disk and caused a read or decode error ..

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post #551 of 992 Old 10-27-2012, 06:27 AM
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Update. Even though I tried twice, and the disc appeared fine, I tried a third time (after reporting it to Netflix of course) but cleaned what looked to be a clean disc....now the sound is fine. Anyone ever have a disc that was dirty and would play the video just fine, and only part of the audio? First for me altho I'm relatively new to BluRay compared to some....only have used BluRays for about 1.5 years now.

I've never heard of or experienced .. my only guess would be some glitch in the player and / or the AVR that was caused by some strategically placed residue on the disk and caused a read or decode error ..

I gotta lean towards something I didn't see on the disc....the weird part was the surround/rear content was coming through the fronts, too....video was just fine and the sound that came out was fine. Using a PS3 and no problems playing discs with that at all since I've got it...

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post #552 of 992 Old 10-27-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I gotta lean towards something I didn't see on the disc....the weird part was the surround/rear content was coming through the fronts, too....video was just fine and the sound that came out was fine. Using a PS3 and no problems playing discs with that at all since I've got it...

The good news is it ended up working OK ..

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post #553 of 992 Old 10-27-2012, 06:11 PM
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I gotta lean towards something I didn't see on the disc....the weird part was the surround/rear content was coming through the fronts, too....video was just fine and the sound that came out was fine. Using a PS3 and no problems playing discs with that at all since I've got it...

The good news is it ended up working OK ..

And two copies of Battleship now 'cuz I reported it before I figured it out (and did try and stop the replacement the same night, but they're too fast)...I did enjoy that, too, much more than I thought I would.

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post #554 of 992 Old 11-03-2012, 02:55 PM
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Received Avengers from Netflix today. Only Dolby Digital frown.gif
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post #555 of 992 Old 11-03-2012, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Received Avengers from Netflix today. Only Dolby Digital frown.gif

Avengers does indeed have a DTS HD MA 7.1 audio track, however, they never stamped the logo on the disc, only the Dolby...

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post #556 of 992 Old 11-21-2012, 12:40 PM
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I rented The Expendables 2 from redbox yesterday and it is missing the DTS-HD MA 7.1 track.
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post #557 of 992 Old 11-21-2012, 02:57 PM
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I rented The Expendables 2 from redbox yesterday and it is missing the DTS-HD MA 7.1 track.

I just received Expendables 2 from Netflix today. I'll see what track it has.

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post #558 of 992 Old 11-21-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Expendables 2 was a so so film .. Norris looked like he had bad plastic surgery .. as far as the audio, it's a LionsGate release and the rental BD copies do not have the HD 7.1 .. as well, I thought I read somewhere that the retail version has DTS-HD Neo X 11.1 .. I guess that's supposed to be a first and may play into what LionsGate is doing to try and beef up added value on retail copies ..

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post #559 of 992 Old 11-22-2012, 09:37 AM
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it's a LionsGate release and the rental BD copies do not have the HD 7.1 .. as well, I thought I read somewhere that the retail version has DTS-HD Neo X 11.1 .. I guess that's supposed to be a first and may play into what LionsGate is doing to try and beef up added value on retail copies ..
It's good you have a glass half full attitude on this.

To me, it smacks of something more like if Ford decide to only put those little spare tire donuts on the vehicles they sell to rental companies in order to give the retail cars better value with real tires.

It's not real value if they take something away from the alternative to make it appear worse by comparison.

Further, who cares besides us, anyway? Are there really enough of us hopping to buy a disc just for the audio? I don't see this helping them. In fact, this has a greater likelihood of generating backlash from people that know what's going on, causing fewer sales from angry people who will refuse to buy.

I don't see the upside here.
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post #560 of 992 Old 11-23-2012, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure the folks at the LionsGate management team think they know what they are doing .. the concept of various editions of an item is nothing new .. as well, my take on the whole thing is pretty neutral .. no glass half full or half empty ..

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post #561 of 992 Old 11-23-2012, 02:04 PM
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I'm sure the folks at the LionsGate management team think they know what they are doing .. the concept of various editions of an item is nothing new .. as well, my take on the whole thing is pretty neutral .. no glass half full or half empty ..
Except it isn't the same thing at all.

Various editions, aside from extended or unrated editions, have the same base movie content be it the single disc edition or the BD/DVD/Digital Copy edition.

One of the big selling points of BD was both better picture and sound. This takes away a fundamental feature of the format.

Just about as bad are the Universal discs that essentially allow the studio to thumb its nose at renters by flashing a message that "this content is not available on the rental version" when you click on the special features. It's childish, like Lucy pulling the ball out from in front of Charlie Brown. I know myself, I have never bought a disc based on the special features, so it's not something that will ever get me to buy a particular movie. I buy a movie because I plan to watch the movie again, not because of some featurette. The featurette may add some value to an already good movie, but it won't ever make a bad one good enough to pay for a retail disc.

I just really think the studios are throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks, the way the music industry was with trying to put out CDs with DRM, then suing people for downloading before finally settling into bed with Apple and, later, Amazon to offer paid downloads.

It's another symptom of using the whip istead of the carrot to drive people to buy. It's never worked, yet they keep trying. They don't understand that repeating the same failed experiment isn't going to produce a different result.
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post #562 of 992 Old 11-23-2012, 02:51 PM
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Except it isn't the same thing at all.
Various editions, aside from extended or unrated editions, have the same base movie content be it the single disc edition or the BD/DVD/Digital Copy edition.
One of the big selling points of BD was both better picture and sound. This takes away a fundamental feature of the format.
Just about as bad are the Universal discs that essentially allow the studio to thumb its nose at renters by flashing a message that "this content is not available on the rental version" when you click on the special features. It's childish, like Lucy pulling the ball out from in front of Charlie Brown. I know myself, I have never bought a disc based on the special features, so it's not something that will ever get me to buy a particular movie. I buy a movie because I plan to watch the movie again, not because of some featurette. The featurette may add some value to an already good movie, but it won't ever make a bad one good enough to pay for a retail disc.
I just really think the studios are throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks, the way the music industry was with trying to put out CDs with DRM, then suing people for downloading before finally settling into bed with Apple and, later, Amazon to offer paid downloads.
It's another symptom of using the whip istead of the carrot to drive people to buy. It's never worked, yet they keep trying. They don't understand that repeating the same failed experiment isn't going to produce a different result.

The obvious response is that Netflix is a way of checking out a movie before actually buying it. Hence, it is no big deal not to have 7.1 or whatever is on the "real" BR disc. There seems to be this pervasive idea that the renter is entitled to something and when it isn't there, they get excited and complain. Once I see a movie at the theater, I usually know whether or not I am going to buy it on BR. The other way to check out a film is via Netflix streaming which is certainly never going to be in 7.1 audio. The best that can be hoped for is usually 5.1 audio which is certainly never going to be in DTS-HD or Dolby HD. Or one can wait for some super sale where said BR drops to something dramatically less than $10. But one will be waiting a long time from the initial release date.
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post #563 of 992 Old 11-24-2012, 05:54 AM
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The obvious response is that Netflix is a way of checking out a movie before actually buying it. Hence, it is no big deal not to have 7.1 or whatever is on the "real" BR disc. There seems to be this persuasive idea that the renter is entitled to something and when it isn't there, they get excited and complain. Once I see a movie at the theater, I usually know whether or not I am going to buy it on BR. The other way to check out a film is via Netflix streaming which is certainly never going to be in 7.1 audio. The best that can be hoped for is usually 5.1 audio which is certainly never going to be in DTS-HD or Dolby HD. Or one can wait for some super sale where said BR drops to something dramatically less than $10. But one will be waiting a long time from the initial release date.
Then why offer it on Blu-ray at all? You can check out the movie just as well on DVD or via streaming, which is what the majority of the customer base is.

If the studios were really in a tizzy to break the rental market, why give Netflix a discount on Blu-ray's at all? Why not just make them buy them full retail and then figure out how to price it so they can make money?

It seems to me, the studios have picked the wrong fight here.
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post #564 of 992 Old 11-24-2012, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Except it isn't the same thing at all.
Various editions, aside from extended or unrated editions, have the same base movie content be it the single disc edition or the BD/DVD/Digital Copy edition.
One of the big selling points of BD was both better picture and sound. This takes away a fundamental feature of the format.
Just about as bad are the Universal discs that essentially allow the studio to thumb its nose at renters by flashing a message that "this content is not available on the rental version" when you click on the special features. It's childish, like Lucy pulling the ball out from in front of Charlie Brown. I know myself, I have never bought a disc based on the special features, so it's not something that will ever get me to buy a particular movie. I buy a movie because I plan to watch the movie again, not because of some featurette. The featurette may add some value to an already good movie, but it won't ever make a bad one good enough to pay for a retail disc.
I just really think the studios are throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks, the way the music industry was with trying to put out CDs with DRM, then suing people for downloading before finally settling into bed with Apple and, later, Amazon to offer paid downloads.
It's another symptom of using the whip istead of the carrot to drive people to buy. It's never worked, yet they keep trying. They don't understand that repeating the same failed experiment isn't going to produce a different result.

There are plenty of BD's without HD Audio .. stating that it's fundamental feature implies all BD's should have it, and that's just not so ..

I, as a business person, do understand what LionsGate is doing .. and I also know that all the studios have harbored a wish for control of the rental market since the first VHS went out the door ..

Most all of this has been discussed here or in other threads .. essentially, NF / RB needs the cheapest cost possible in order to offer cheap rentals .. they don't need a fancy box and the vast majority of their customers really don't know or care what the audio encode is .. thus, in order to add value to the retail version, Lionsgate offers a disc that is not quite fully the retail version .. the PQ is still there but the mostly ignored SQ is maybe an older tech .. voila, rental version ..

With sales in a slump, 3D not the cash cow they hoped it would be, streaming still in a growth curve, it's not outrageous to see a public company try to do things to maximize shareholder satisfaction ..

Point being, NF / RB agreed to the terms, knowing full well it would not impact their rentals .. they could have flexed and said no, we want the full meal deal .. and they have a huge amount of leverage based on their percentage of the rental market .. however, the NF / RB business model runs on the lowest cost / highest churn they can eek out .. and a savings of even 2 cents per disk makes a difference ..

Making a business decision is a convoluted process that highly paid folks agonize over and examine at all angles ..

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post #565 of 992 Old 11-24-2012, 08:07 AM
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I rented The Expendables 2 from redbox yesterday and it is missing the DTS-HD MA 7.1 track.

Now watching this from Netflix, but I must say, even at DD 640 this is one awesome soundtrack, with thunderous bass and clear dialog. If they think by omitting the DTS-HD codec they will force me to purchase this, or any other title, they are sadly mistaken.

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post #566 of 992 Old 11-24-2012, 09:42 AM
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Now watching this from Netflix, but I must say, even at DD 640 this is one awesome soundtrack, with thunderous bass and clear dialog. If they think by omitting the DTS-HD codec they will force me to purchase this, or any other title, they are sadly mistaken.

I suspect its more of a case of rental discs more often being the source of pirated ISOs being shared by torrent. Eliminating features makes this less likely.
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post #567 of 992 Old 11-24-2012, 10:19 AM
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Then why offer it on Blu-ray at all? You can check out the movie just as well on DVD or via streaming, which is what the majority of the customer base is.

Let's see. Netflix offers both BR and SD and there is no difference in price to pick either. So why would anyone pick SD? BR is going to look a lot better than SD on a high definition display and usually sound a lot better in a dedicated home theater system. As to what the majority do, I don't care. So, if you are arguing about conformity and want to come down on that side, that is your perogative.
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If the studios were really in a tizzy to break the rental market, why give Netflix a discount on Blu-ray's at all? Why not just make them buy them full retail and then figure out how to price it so they can make money?
It seems to me, the studios have picked the wrong fight here.

It is apparent that some users are willing to pay for it and you aren't. Hence, the explosion of BR sales. It is quite amusing to see SD priced higher than BRs, during some ultra sales like Amazon's Black Friday. The rental market is a fact of today's life and companies have to deal with it the best that they can. Sometimes, they make the wrong decision from your perspective.
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post #568 of 992 Old 11-24-2012, 09:19 PM
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I, too, noticed only DD available on Expendables 2 rental disc from a walk-in BlockBuster.

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post #569 of 992 Old 11-25-2012, 11:39 AM
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Let's see. Netflix offers both BR and SD and there is no difference in price to pick either. So why would anyone pick SD? BR is going to look a lot better than SD on a high definition display and usually sound a lot better in a dedicated home theater system. As to what the majority do, I don't care. So, if you are arguing about conformity and want to come down on that side, that is your perogative.
What do you mean there's no price difference? You have to pay extra for BD access with Netflix. It's a premium service.

Further, it matters a lot what the majority do since that's what drives profits. A few of us home theater geeks with equipment that can actually take advantage of the audio aren't going to drive sales. They're barking up the wrong tree if they're looking to drive sales on any real level.
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I suspect its more of a case of rental discs more often being the source of pirated ISOs being shared by torrent. Eliminating features makes this less likely.
Except the movie alone was likely out there online before it hit the theaters - without all the crap that comes on the disc. Further, someone looking to post an ISO online could just pirate the retail version from another rental source or by buying and reselling a copy.

The idea this will stop piracy of the best possible copies is silly.


What this really amounts to is the camel's nose being in the tent on removing features and reducing functionality while locking out shortcuts. I guarantee Lionsgate is already preparing to shift to either more compressed or lower rez rental copies in the future as the next phase of trying to mess with the rental market. It's not that they want to kill Netflix so much as drive them completely toward streaming so they can demand more money every time the contract comes up for renewal.
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post #570 of 992 Old 11-25-2012, 12:29 PM
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What do you mean there's no price difference? You have to pay extra for BD access with Netflix. It's a premium service.

My mistake, I thought that you had the BR service package out of Netflix.
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Further, it matters a lot what the majority do since that's what drives profits. A few of us home theater geeks with equipment that can actually take advantage of the audio aren't going to drive sales. They're barking up the wrong tree if they're looking to drive sales on any real level. Except the movie alone was likely out there online before it hit the theaters - without all the crap that comes on the disc. Further, someone looking to post an ISO online could just pirate the retail version from another rental source or by buying and reselling a copy.

Again, I don't care what the majority do or want. I am going to pick and choose what I want and am willing to pay for. At this rate, one shouldn't be totally surprised if low res stuff becomes the choice of those who love to watch stuff on their tablets or smart phones and your semi videophile options disappear.
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The idea this will stop piracy of the best possible copies is silly.

This is one thing that you are correct about. Many ways to get around copy protection, even for BR.

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What this really amounts to is the camel's nose being in the tent on removing features and reducing functionality while locking out shortcuts. I guarantee Lionsgate is already preparing to shift to either more compressed or lower rez rental copies in the future as the next phase of trying to mess with the rental market. It's not that they want to kill Netflix so much as drive them completely toward streaming so they can demand more money every time the contract comes up for renewal.

Then don't pay for it, if that is how you feel. You simply have a different expectation from Netflix and Lionsgate and when it isn't met you aren't satisfied.
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