(Horror Of) Dracula UK Blu-ray - Epic Fail! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 85 Old 03-20-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

perhaps more problematic than any revisionist color grading (and it is, there's no denying that fact) is the significantly darker quality of the transfer than any previous home video release. Obviously, the decade old Warner Bros dvd release is a bit to bright and on the warm side but I think the BFI went too far in the other direction. In some scenes, detail is unacceptably lost in murky blacks and subtracting the fact this is the film's first home video presentation in HD, it's not a huge step up in fine detail over the previous WB dvd release.

The way you describe it sounds almost exactly like what happened to Coppola's "Bram Stoker's Dracula" on Blu-ray.

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post #62 of 85 Old 03-21-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The way you describe it sounds almost exactly like what happened to Coppola's "Bram Stoker's Dracula" on Blu-ray.

Yes, very much the same result vs any previous home video (or film) release. Doing an A/B comparioson with the Coppolla films US superbit dvd vs Blu-ray against the (Horror) of Dracula US dvd vs the UK Blu-ray, I'd say the Coppola film suffers more under it's Blu-ray release.
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post #63 of 85 Old 03-21-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

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Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

perhaps more problematic than any revisionist color grading (and it is, there's no denying that fact) is the significantly darker quality of the transfer than any previous home video release. Obviously, the decade old Warner Bros dvd release is a bit to bright and on the warm side but I think the BFI went too far in the other direction. In some scenes, detail is unacceptably lost in murky blacks and subtracting the fact this is the film's first home video presentation in HD, it's not a huge step up in fine detail over the previous WB dvd release.

The way you describe it sounds almost exactly like what happened to Coppola's "Bram Stoker's Dracula" on Blu-ray.
As he described it, that is exactly what I was also thinking.

So is there any hope Warner gets around now to finally releasing their Blu-ray edition? Do the Hammers simply not sell anymore in America? I would have thought gothic Vampire stories would be experiencing a resurgence with the success of Twilight. They should have made Dracula sparkle in the light with the revised color grading, that would have helped sales.tongue.gif
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post #64 of 85 Old 03-21-2013, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Phantom Stranger View Post

As he described it, that is exactly what I was also thinking.

So is there any hope Warner gets around now to finally releasing their Blu-ray edition? Do the Hammers simply not sell anymore in America? I would have thought gothic Vampire stories would be experiencing a resurgence with the success of Twilight. They should have made Dracula sparkle in the light with the revised color grading, that would have helped sales.tongue.gif

On a couple other Hammer-related forums, it's been mentioned via various people that have contacted Warner Bros the past couple years that the studio has responded that Horror Of Dracula is "on the radar" and the work on a new reference source was done about a decade ago at their Burbank studio which is what was given to the BFI in '07. It's unclear whether that was the source used for the incorrectly framed WB dvd release(s) or if the work was done a few years after the dvd release. It's also unclear if the new color grading was done by Warner Bros during the restoration or by the BFI for the 2007 theatrical release although in the bonus feature about the restoration on the new UK Blu-ray, it does sound like the BFI took the WB print and re-did the color timing per Ben Thompson's comments.

It's a mystery why Warner Bros has sat on this film to this date especially considering they apparently have already put serious work into archiving the film for future release or any of their Hammer titles for that matter as WB has the US release rights to some of Hammer's best films. I would think the last few years worth of economic issues has and may still play a big part but then one looks at some of the catalog titles Warner Bros *has* released the last couple years that pale in every aspect to the owrst of their Hammer titles along with the fact WB has become the King of re-releasing repacked titles in multiple configurations and the questions remains a head scratcher.
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post #65 of 85 Old 03-21-2013, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

On a couple other Hammer-related forums, it's been mentioned via various people that have contacted Warner Bros the past couple years that the studio has responded that Horror Of Dracula is "on the radar" and the work on a new reference source was done about a decade ago at their Burbank studio which is what was given to the BFI in '07.

I remember contact Warners back in the laserdisc days, inquiring about CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN. They said the same thing, basically...that is was on the radar. Roughly a year later, the laserdisc was released. Hopefully the same will happen for HORROR on Blu.

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post #66 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 04:18 AM
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I have watched the BD yesterday and there is no blue tint. Some night scenes are A LITTLE BIT blueish, but it is not a real tint. In fact I am very happy with the release. I have watched recently the old WB DVD and the image looked very washed out with pale colors.

Here are some more screenshots:

00007.m2ts_snapshot_02.12_2013.03.22.png 00013.m2ts_snapshot_03.05_2013.03.22.png 00009.m2ts_snapshot_00.31_2013.03.22.png 00011.m2ts_snapshot_04.48_2013.03.22.png 00009.m2ts_snapshot_01.10_2013.03.22.png 00008.m2ts_snapshot_00.20.35_2013.03.png 00008.m2ts_snapshot_00.00.45_2013.03.png 00010.m2ts_snapshot_01.27_2013.03.22.png 00013.m2ts_snapshot_02.54_2013.03.22.png 00009.m2ts_snapshot_00.34_2013.03.22.png 00008.m2ts_snapshot_00.45.24_2013.03.png 00007.m2ts_snapshot_00.23_2013.03.22.png 00013.m2ts_snapshot_02.18_2013.03.22.png 00013.m2ts_snapshot_02.16_2013.03.22.png
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post #67 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 08:09 AM
 
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Night scenes being a little bit bluish would be correct. I'll watch tomorrow night and weigh in then, but between Rathbone here and Reed Gale at the HTF it appears that all this screen shot bitching and moaning has been the usual malarky. It was obvious from even the caps that it wasn't "tinted" blue - how ridiculous. Looking forward to seeing it.
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post #68 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rathbone View Post

I have watched the BD yesterday and there is no blue tint. Some night scenes are A LITTLE BIT blueish, but it is not a real tint. In fact I am very happy with the release. I have watched recently the old WB DVD and the image looked very washed out with pale colors.

Here are some more screenshots:

00008.m2ts_snapshot_00.20.35_2013.03.png
00008.m2ts_snapshot_00.00.45_2013.03.png

DVD caps

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post #69 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by haineshisway View Post

Night scenes being a little bit bluish would be correct. I'll watch tomorrow night and weigh in then, but between Rathbone here and Reed Gale at the HTF it appears that all this screen shot bitching and moaning has been the usual malarky. It was obvious from even the caps that it wasn't "tinted" blue - how ridiculous. Looking forward to seeing it.

"Bluish" and significantly darker. The original screen caps despite your whining were fairly accurate as to the basic differences in the old vs new transfers.

The more I watch the UK Bl;u-ray, the more acceptable the overall image becomes, but as I stated, the BFI's newer color grading still went too far in the opposite direction from the older Warner Bros dvd. Taking into account the outstanding extra features and the newly inserted Japanese footage (and especially the presentation of the unrestored Japanese reels), it's still a worthwhile release. It just could have been better.
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post #70 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 08:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

"Bluish" and significantly darker. The original screen caps despite your whining were fairly accurate as to the basic differences in the old vs new transfers.

The more I watch the UK Bl;u-ray, the more acceptable the overall image becomes, but as I stated, the BFI's newer color grading still went too far in the opposite direction from the older Warner Bros dvd. Taking into account the outstanding extra features and the newly inserted Japanese footage (and especially the presentation of the unrestored Japanese reels), it's still a worthwhile release. It just could have been better.

I'll let you know what I think, and my "whining" about screen caps is absolutely correct. "Significantly" darker is in the eye of the beholder, since the Warners DVD was about ten notches too bright. Screen caps can never be accurate to anything but one still frame being captured heaven knows how. It has no relevance to anything and people should avoid them like the plague, and, more importantly, avoid rushing to judgment based on them, as happened - right in this very thread. What was an Epic Fail has turned into a worthwhile release, one based on screen caps, one based on viewing.

I'm looking forward to seeing it.
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post #71 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking forward to seeing it.

That's super.
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post #72 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 11:34 AM
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How's the audio? The DD mono available on VUDU streaming sounds pretty terrible.

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post #73 of 85 Old 03-22-2013, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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How's the audio? The DD mono available on VUDU streaming sounds pretty terrible.

The audio is imo, the best this movie has ever sounded on home video. It's a mono DTS-MA 2 channel track and may be a little massaged to give it a fuller sound but not objectionably so.

For the 2012 version with the Japanese footage, there's a few instances especially in the climax where the soundtrack music doesn't quite fit elegantly as in the standard cut due to slight differences in length of footage vs audio but considering what they had to work with, it is what it is. I suspect that's why a few frames of a previously unseen reaction shot by Lee/Dracula (seen below) present in the unrestored Japanese footage was not integrated into the 2012 cut because it would have thrown off the timing even more....

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post #74 of 85 Old 03-23-2013, 11:14 PM
 
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Okie doke, I've run the first thirty minutes of it - there is not ONE shot that has what the wags here and elsewhere who have only looked at screen caps or who are somehow assuming that a DVD transfer off a low-contrast internegative many generations away from the camera negative, and faded to boot, is somehow the correct look - not ONE shot that has a blue "tint" - what does that mean anyway? If this transfer had been washed in blue, as the posts here suggested based on those inane caps, EVERYTHING would be blue, but, guess what - it isn't. Ever. In the night scenes, of course there is blue, but the faces are not blue, the things that should be blue are blue. The caps on this film are ludicrous, especially next to the terrible DVD transfer caps. The film now looks as it should - with moody lighting that it always had - you know, MOVIE lighting, not a low-contrast element that is ten stops too bright. There is not one shot in the first thirty minutes that is anywhere near too dark - they're all correctly timed. I am often called a whiner, but the whining is coming from those who do this lousy game with the caps, cause their trouble, then walk away or sheepishly admit that it's a worthwhile transfer, while somehow never backing off the trouble they caused and still saying the caps are accurate. Caps are still frames - I can pick a still frame from any movie ever made and it will look dark or weird out of context - but movies are MOTION pictures not screen caps, and this is a very pleasing transfer. I would have wished it to be a little sharper than it is, but it's a trillion times better than the travesty transfer of Curse of Frankenstein.

Order without fear. Enjoy without referencing inane screen caps, and know this is what the film should look like. I skimmed the rest of it, but will watch in its entirety this evening.
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post #75 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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The film now looks as it should - with moody lighting that it always had - you know, MOVIE lighting, not a low-contrast element that is ten stops too bright. There is not one shot in the first thirty minutes that is anywhere near too dark - they're all correctly timed..

How would you know if it's too dark or too bright or if the new color timing is correct? You couldn't even recognize a pair of images from the movie earlier in this thread! LOL!
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post #76 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 04:18 PM
 
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How would you know if it's too dark or too bright or if the new color timing is correct? You couldn't even recognize a pair of images from the movie earlier in this thread! LOL!

Do you actually have the ability to behave like a human being, or are you just a typical Internet type? Really. You began a thread that said EPIC FAIL - you haven't changed that title, but you have said it's a worthwhile release. And I'm happy to answer your belligerent and belittling questions, even though I've answered them repeatedly and others who are in the same position as I am have also answered - so pay attention and maybe this will sink into your head - I have owned both 16mm and 35mm dye transfer prints of this film. You have not. That gives me an edge. Oh, well. I saw one of them just two years ago. I've seen this film projected about thirty times. That gives me an edge. Oh, well. Someone else in this very thread has spoken of recently seeing a dye transfer print. The one person we KNOW who HASN'T seen one EVER is - wait for it - you. That gives you no edge and you have behaved like a little mewling child from the beginning of this thread to the end. So, I know if it's too dark or too bright because I know what this film looks like. I know the new color timing, while not perfect, is in the ballpark and well in the ballpark because I know what this film looks like. And yes, I couldn't recognize whatever of your postage stamp-sized idiotic caps and I take the blame there because you, being who you are, sucked me into something I should never have allowed myself to be sucked into. Point for you. But, then again, you thought Mr. Asher won an Academy Award or was nominated. Point taken away. We're even.

So, let me boil it down to its essence for you: The EPIC FAIL is yours. You can't even apologize for it. And you continue to base things on screen caps even though you've seen the damn thing. There is NO SHOT in this transfer that is too dark. Period. That is the way those particular sequences were lit and it is obvious or should be to anyone who has seen any Hammer film projected. Do you even know what a low-con element is and what it was designed for (partyslammer quickly runs to Google to find out) - if you did, you would know exactly why the Warners DVD is so grotesquely wrong in every way. And, for the last time, even though you and others kept on with the "blue tint" - no, there is no "blue tint." There is blue where there should be blue. The End.

Give it up, pal. You were wrong when you began and you are doing yourself no favors by continuing your attempts to belittle someone who knows what he's talking about. I know you Internet trolls and types love to do it - you live for it - it makes you think you're special, but you end up looking really silly, especially when you do have to backtrack on your EPIC FAIL and say it's a worthwhile disc. It IS a worthwhile disc - not perfect - but as good as we've had on home video and a gazillion times better than the Warners DVD travesty.

I'm sure you'll carry on because you Internet types live to carry on long past the due date. Yours expired the day you made this sorry thread.
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post #77 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 06:18 PM
 
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Having now finished it, I am very pleased with the transfer - the color, at long last, is just about right, with deep reds and greens and blues and thankfully the brownness and over bright awful looking Warners DVD is nowhere in sight. Some shots are breathtakingly good. Again, no blue wash EVER. No revisionist color timing EVER. No overly dark scenes EVER. Using the Warners DVD as comparison is stupid as it is completely wrong in every way. Scenes where Dracula and company's caskets are are of course darker than the Warners DVD, which was like daylight - I do think we know that vampires would not put their coffins anywhere near bright light - I think we know that. And the light source would dictate that blue is the order of the day down there. It's just so stupid even having to defend this stuff that's finally correct.

Again, buy without fear and for all the brickbats that Hammer had to endure for their heinous disc of The Curse of Frankenstein, they deserve major kudos for this, as do the BFI. Sorry if that's not what people want to hear, but fans of this film who actually KNOW the film and its look will be VERY pleased. It's a wonderful transfer of an absolutely terrific Hammer film.
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post #78 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I have owned both 16mm and 35mm dye transfer prints of this film. You have not. That gives me an edge.

So going by your logic, owning or seeing a 35mm print of unknown quality makes that particular source the be-all and end-all of how the films color looks:

IB Tech print scans from a recent eBay auction:





Look, I'm glad you like the Blu-ray release and the color grading of the transfer. Plenty of others appear to as well and I and a few others are clearly in the minority regarding our opinions. Whatever. By all means, continue banging your head against the wall in this and other threads on this forum if that's what makes you happy. As it's been said earlier in this thread and in a few others where you've gone off on your rants, you simply need to be ignored. As of now, that's what I'm doing. As of now, you're blocked. Have a nice day.
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post #79 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 08:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

So going by your logic, owning or seeing a 35mm print of unknown quality makes that particular source the be-all and end-all of how the films color looks:

IB Tech print scans from a recent eBay auction:





Look, I'm glad you like the Blu-ray release and the color grading of the transfer. Plenty of others appear to as well and I and a few others are clearly in the minority regarding our opinions. Whatever. By all means, continue banging your head against the wall in this and other threads on this forum if that's what makes you happy. As it's been said earlier in this thread and in a few others where you've gone off on your rants, you simply need to be ignored. As of now, that's what I'm doing. As of now, you're blocked. Have a nice day.

I don't know what "unknown quality" means. And yes, it's not the be all and end all but it's a hell of a lot more accurate than a DVD off a low-con element with faded color. But I'm blocked and that's a good thing.

And of course you can't stop with the scans - you have no idea how those scans were achieved and they look pretty crappy to my eye so I'd say they were achieved poorly.
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post #80 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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post #81 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 10:04 PM
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Seems to look pretty nice actually. No clue about the color timing thing, but it seems like a pretty good looking presentation in terms of objective qualities.
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post #82 of 85 Old 03-24-2013, 10:22 PM
 
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Seems to look pretty nice actually. No clue about the color timing thing, but it seems like a pretty good looking presentation in terms of objective qualities.

He thinks these endless caps mean something. All it means is that the DVD had bad color and was overtly bright, and the new disc puts that right - with mostly accurate color and density and contrast. Dracula was not a brightly-lit Universal TV show from 1973. It was a HORROR film - with moody lighting, occasionally garish splashes of lighting and color (see the REDS in this new transfer - they are - I know it's radical - RED), shadows, and blue in the underground scenes as it should be and blue in the night scenes as it should be - it's not a blue wash or tint, it's the lighting - these people are so ridiculous - look at the faces in those scenes - look at the other colors - no blue there, just in the shadows and the night. The skin tones are not blue. But the assumption here automatically is when these caps are presented together that somehow the DVD was right and the new version isn't like that. Thank the LORD because the new version gets it right.

Same thing happened with Westworld - people posted comparisons of the new Warners Blu, which is terrific, and the awful French version, which is off the same old transfer used for the DVD, which was fading, low-con, and on top of that, artificially sharpened. But these guys "preferred" the French version - not that they'd actually seen it OR the Warners, mind you. And so it goes.
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post #83 of 85 Old 03-25-2013, 01:56 AM
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so Harker was on Amiodarone?
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post #84 of 85 Old 03-25-2013, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by haineshisway View Post

He thinks these endless caps mean something. All it means is that the DVD had bad color and was overtly bright, and the new disc puts that right - with mostly accurate color and density and contrast. Dracula was not a brightly-lit Universal TV show from 1973. It was a HORROR film - with moody lighting, occasionally garish splashes of lighting and color (see the REDS in this new transfer - they are - I know it's radical - RED), shadows, and blue in the underground scenes as it should be and blue in the night scenes as it should be - it's not a blue wash or tint, it's the lighting - these people are so ridiculous - look at the faces in those scenes - look at the other colors - no blue there, just in the shadows and the night. The skin tones are not blue. But the assumption here automatically is when these caps are presented together that somehow the DVD was right and the new version isn't like that. Thank the LORD because the new version gets it right.

100% agreed, Bruce! Not only the reds are actually red, the greens are also actually green now:

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=20409&cap2=20419&art=full&image=6&cID=1596&action=1&lossless=1#vergleich

Somebody would honestly say the DVD is superior to the BD? Come on, you can't be serious!
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post #85 of 85 Old 03-26-2013, 07:57 AM
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So then everyone is in complete agreement? tongue.gif

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