10Bit VS 8bit - Need help understanding! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I see some 10Bit files floating around out there - and while reading an older forum post here - I saw someone who said that bluray only outputs at 8bit while studios have 10bit.

Have studios released 10bit blurays? Or have these 10bit files come from a digital studio copy?

So if I have a bluray of a movie - and I see that same movie out there in a 10bit encode - is that 10bit better than my current untouched bluray?
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post #2 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 02:18 PM
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The Blu-ray spec only supports 8-bit/channel color. I'm not sure what those 10bit encodes are but it's probably BS.
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post #3 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 03:28 PM
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10bit is more efficient in compression than 8bit, so it's used for better compression, not because the source has more bits.
You can read about it here: http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_02-ateme-why_does_10bit_save_bandwidth.pdf

It can also be used to encode directly from 10bit processing without going via dithering if processing is used.
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post #4 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

The Blu-ray spec only supports 8-bit/channel color. I'm not sure what those 10bit encodes are but it's probably BS.
I don't think that's entirely correct.

The times I've checked my BD video signal on AVR Information overlay screen, it has always indicated:
1080P 24Hz 12 bit

BTW, my player is configured for original resolution and Y'CbCr 4:4:4 colour space, AVR is set for video signal pass-through without modification and display is configured for 1080P Pure Direct.
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post #5 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 06:25 PM
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My understanding:

DVD and BD: 8-bit per channel 4:2:0 YCbCr is 12 bits total (8+4).

BD player outputs min. 4:2:2 at 16-bits (8+4+4) or 20-bits (10+5+5).

It can also upsample further to 4:4:4 at 24-bits (8+8+8) without Deep Color.

With Deep Color, it goes up to 30-bits (10*3), or 36-bits (12*3) or 48-bits (16*3).

RGB is 24-bit (8*3).

I suspect the 1080P 24Hz 12 bit mentioned above indicates 12-bit per channel with Deep Color, not 12-bit total.

10-bit file? 10-bit total or 10-bit PC? Not the same thing...

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #6 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it is 10bit per channel??? Hell I dont know - which is why I was asking smile.gif

So would it be possible for a studio to release a digital download with super high bit rate - and super high frame rate? I would assume so - if the source was shot in those higher specs. (Anyone here remember Terminator 2 special edition DVD? It had a digital copy on the bonus disk that was 1080p! Way before Bluray hit the market!)

Can digital containers like MKV handle a high bit rate of 10+ and high FPS of 48+ @ 1080p?


PS - you guys do bring up a good point about the super deep colors at the 30bit range - 10 bits per channel - so it seems that hdmi 1.3a+ is capable of transmitting those colors - just that the bluray spec may not handle them - so it would have to be a digital computer video file..


PPS - Anyone know of any digital 1080p files at super high frame rates like 60fps? I would love to see my 1080p projector firing on all cylinders @ 60fps!
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post #7 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 08:48 PM
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Blu-ray, ATSC (Broadcast TV), DVB-S (most, not all satellite), cable, etc. use 8 bit, 4:2:0 (H.262, H.264 and SMPTE 421M).

H.265 will start with 8 bit, 4:2:0 but I believe there are plans for extensions that will accommodate up to 10 or 12 bit, 4:4:4. It will be interesting to see what Hollywood does with UHDTV Blu-ray when it arrives. Some of the suits were not overly thrilled with consumers having access to 1080p, 8 bit, 4:2:0 so I would expect 2160P, 10 bit, 4:2:2 to cause them many sleepless nights.


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post #8 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordx2 View Post

I think it is 10bit per channel??? Hell I dont know - which is why I was asking smile.gif

You haven't told us where you came across those files so we can't tell either. There might be software on the PC to tell you and my standalone video processor can also show the info.
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Originally Posted by lordx2 View Post

Anyone know of any digital 1080p files at super high frame rates like 60fps?

AVCHD can do that and someone made some test files in the BDP forum.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #9 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordx2 View Post

Have studios released 10bit blurays? Or have these 10bit files come from a digital studio copy? So if I have a bluray of a movie - and I see that same movie out there in a 10bit encode - is that 10bit better than my current untouched bluray?

Are you talking about 10-bit color or a 10Mbit stream? That would need clarification.

Blu-ray is limited (per spec) to 8 bits per color channel (RGB) which equates to 24bpp (24 bits per pixel, i.e.: selecting 24-bit true color mode on your computer). 10 bits per channel and higher bits per pixel would require the right software for encoding/decoding (which is easy to come by) but would then require hardware capable of displaying native 10-bit+ content. Otherwise, the 10/12/16-bit per channel content will just be dithered down to 8-bit (or 6-bit) when it hits your TV/display.
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

The Blu-ray spec only supports 8-bit/channel color. I'm not sure what those 10bit encodes are but it's probably BS.

The 10-bit encodes could be real, but without context as to what those files are or where they came from, we can't say for certain. Like most things involving "Deep Color", it's mostly marketing at this point.
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Originally Posted by Iain- View Post

I don't think that's entirely correct. The times I've checked my BD video signal on AVR Information overlay screen, it has always indicated:
1080P 24Hz 12 bit. BTW, my player is configured for original resolution and Y'CbCr 4:4:4 colour space, AVR is set for video signal pass-through without modification and display is configured for 1080P Pure Direct.

If you have disabled ALL processing, then your AVR is simply describing the connection and not the content (subtle difference). Your equipment is all Deep Color-compatible, so the connection is 12-bit (36bpp), but your disc still only holds 8-bit (24bpp) content. If you activate Deep Color processing, then takes your standard 8-bit (24bpp) stream and resamples it to 10-bit (30bpp), 12-bit (36bpp), or 16-bit (48bpp), whatever your equipment is capable of. Of course, most people only have 6-bit or 8-bit LCDs, so everything just gets dithered back down anyway. LOL
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Originally Posted by lordx2 View Post

I think it is 10bit per channel??? Hell I dont know - which is why I was asking smile.gif So would it be possible for a studio to release a digital download with super high bit rate - and super high frame rate? I would assume so - if the source was shot in those higher specs. (Anyone here remember Terminator 2 special edition DVD? It had a digital copy on the bonus disk that was 1080p! Way before Bluray hit the market!) Can digital containers like MKV handle a high bit rate of 10+ and high FPS of 48+ @ 1080p? PS - you guys do bring up a good point about the super deep colors at the 30bit range - 10 bits per channel - so it seems that hdmi 1.3a+ is capable of transmitting those colors - just that the bluray spec may not handle them - so it would have to be a digital computer video file.. PPS - Anyone know of any digital 1080p files at super high frame rates like 60fps? I would love to see my 1080p projector firing on all cylinders @ 60fps!

Yes, videos of any frame rate, color depth, and resolution are available in nearly any container and many codecs (containers are generally agnostic to the A/V within). With the right codec, you can play anything on a computer. But what good is it if you don't have a display that can natively view it? I have some 48fps, 60fps, and 120fps videos on my computer, but my laptop screen is only good for 60Hz, but my CRT can do 120Hz (it can go as high as 260Hz, but not HD resolution). So you have to figure out what makes sense.

Also, I still have my T2 Extreme Edition 1080p DVD. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

You haven't told us where you came across those files so we can't tell either. There might be software on the PC to tell you and my standalone video processor can also show the info.
AVCHD can do that and someone made some test files in the BDP forum.

Yeah, that's still the real question. For all we know it's something he found on TPB. LOL
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post #10 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 04:03 AM
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He is talking about 10bit per channel, and as I said it's mostly for more compression.
It's widely used to recompress or compress animated material, where banding is a major problem on the original discs. You can scene by scene fix this in a 10bit environment and compress directly or just encode from 8bit environment for the compression advantage. Even if then you watch it dithered to 8bit, the advantage is still there, especially with low grain material where the difference is more visible.
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post #11 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by someone else View Post

He is talking about 10bit per channel, and as I said it's mostly for more compression.
It's widely used to recompress or compress animated material, where banding is a major problem on the original discs. You can scene by scene fix this in a 10bit environment and compress directly or just encode from 8bit environment for the compression advantage. Even if then you watch it dithered to 8bit, the advantage is still there, especially with low grain material where the difference is more visible.

Right, but he still hasn't clarified where he saw these supposed 10-bit videos. When asked, he then started talking about HFR videos. The OP is all over the map and I just want to know some simple details.

confused.gif
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post #12 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Nathan -- I do computer work - and I saw these files on a customers machine.

They were indeed animation - so 'someone else' seems to have it nailed as far as that is concerned.

Also - If videos were released at 60FPS it would be perfect. All LCD displays, original HDTVs, and projectors would be able to 1:1 handle it.

It would probably look like home video though - or even worse soap opera - and people would complain no doubt.

Anyway - it would be nice for studios to release some awesome video like they did with the terminator 2 dvd... so ahead of its time.
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post #13 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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"AVCHD can do that and someone made some test files in the BDP forum."

BDP Forum?
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post #14 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

The Blu-ray spec only supports 8-bit/channel color. I'm not sure what those 10bit encodes are but it's probably BS.

Perhaps stuff people shot themselves? Or computer generated 3D animation files?

Anyway 10bits per channel can be radically helpful during editing since you avoid nasty banding so much more easily, etc. OTOH very very few people actually have displays that can show true 10bits even some of the fancy editing monitors only provide fake 10 bits so not many have a way to see a finished 10bit product and make use of a finished 10bit file. Almost anyone could make use of 10bit source footage though when trying to create something.
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post #15 of 15 Old 03-01-2013, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I read one of the responses above in terms of 10bit compression compared to 8 bit - http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_02-ateme-why_does_10bit_save_bandwidth.pdf

This can help in compression of movies - but if you have the 8 bit bluray source untouched - that is better than a x264 compression of it - even if it uses 10bit compression.

Only having a 10bit source would be better - which makes me cross my fingers that maybe we will see those released for download at some point.
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