AVS Can't-Wait Special—"Mastered in 4K" Blu-Ray Releases - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:26 PM
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I order the Sony W900a (triluminos display) and should receive it on Tues, can't wait.
My question is, will the PS3 take advantage of the new disks, there is a x.v.Color option in the menu.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

No "poison" to pick here. The new transfer is essentially flawless (obviously, not counting the limitations of the original photography).

Yeah flawless meaning cleaned just as the Toho version Godzilla is flawless and the Criterion is flawed.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

The new Taxi Driver benefits from better grain reproduction due to the higher bitrate. The colors are slightly different as well.
I had picked out that same shot of the canister while I was watching the movie and trying to spot highly-saturated greens. I thought maybe the 2013 disc would show extra out-of-range colors when converted to regular RGB, but the opposite is the case. So I didn't bother posting it before since the result is so boring:
http://imgbox.com/g/ywUgO13XQC (black is in-range and the rest of the image shows how the out-of-range colors are clipped using this particular RGB conversion algorithm)


Thanks msgohan. Now I have a better understanding of what's going on.

My Blu-ray player is a Pioneer BDP-51FD. It's a little confusing as my manual says it can "transmit a video signal with 8 bit color depth in the YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB formats," then it goes on to say "the players supporting Deep Color can transmit a video signal with a color bit depth of greater than 8 bits per color component. Subtle color gradations can be reproduced when connected to a TV that supports Deep Color"

It also says, "This player outputs 1080/60p and Deep Color video signals."


Odd, since I don't believe Blu-ray specs allow 1080/60p or even Deep Color video signals.


On the other hand, my Pioneer Pro151FD manual says

"One of the benefits of using your flat panel TV to control other equipment is the support of Deep Color. Deep Color is
the color depth that describes the number of bits used to represent the color of a single pixel in a bitmapped image.
Besides the conventional RGB/YCbCr16bit/20bit/24bit signals, the flat panel TV also supports RGB/YCbCr30bit/36bit
signals. This enables finer color reproduction when a device that supports Deep Color signals (HDMI1.3 Deep Color)
is connected to the panel. The color depth appears on the InfoBanner if a program supports Deep Color."

So of course I'm under the impression my Pioneer Kuro will display "Deep Color" without having to change anything within the HDTV's screen's menu.


At the same time, there's nothing that suggests "Deep Color" on the Pioneer Kuro is x.v.Color or svYCC as it's listed, or even "Expanded Color" as Sony describes it for their displays. However I can only assume "Expanded Color" is the same as "Deep Color?"

Now for something a bit confusing;

Now and then I get my Pro 151FD professionally calibrated for the Rec.709 color space (a color space that's about the same as sRGB.) "Deep Color" (as I can only imagine) might have a color space that's closer to the Adobe 98 standard; (a color space that allows deeper blues, some brighter reds and some brighter violets.)

At least on a computer monitor (a monitor that is capable of displaying sRGB and most of the color space of Adobe 98,) both of those color spaces (I think) have to be calibrated separately? I might be wrong about that...Or at least switched to Adobe 98 for images in the Adobe 98 color space to be viewed properly, and then changed to sRGB for images in the sRGB color space so they can be viewed properly.


Another words, the article about the Sony display says it can detect what format the color space is and adjust for it. It seems according to what my manual says above, my display will detect "Deep Color" and display it properly AND the color depth info will appear in the INfoBanner.


So after thinking this through, it seems all I need is the new Sony player that allows for playback of "Expanded Color" encoded Blu-rays to be played back on my Pioneer Pro151FD Kuro. Or am I not understanding something correctly here?

Is "Expanded Color" a RGB/YCbCr30bit or 36bit signal?


Thanks,

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Old 06-01-2013, 07:09 AM
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Neither.

The bit assignment correlates to colour depth
The RGB etc correlates to (to simplify) colour "format"
Expanded Colour correlates to colour space (such are BT 601, REC 709, DCI, F65 etc)

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Old 06-01-2013, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

It also says, "This player outputs 1080/60p and Deep Color video signals."

Odd, since I don't believe Blu-ray specs allow 1080/60p or even Deep Color video signals.

Correct. 1080p60 output is done by duplicating frames in an uneven pattern (for a 24 fps movie) or interpolating spatial information (for 60Hz interlaced video). I think in theory Deep Color can be better in some cases by overcoming rounding errors, but it's not a difference that should be visible.
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Correct. 1080p60 output is done by duplicating frames in an uneven pattern (for a 24 fps movie) or interpolating spatial information (for 60Hz interlaced video). I think in theory Deep Color can be better in some cases by overcoming rounding errors, but it's not a difference that should be visible.

Wasn't Deep Color just a fancy consumer-friendly term for 10 or 12 bit video depth? The only possible way of getting that is if the UHD standards committee shifts us off the junky 8 bit stuff of the past and into the pro-grade realm.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:55 PM
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If the movies in the Sony movie server is of any indication, the 4K standard may be 8-bit 4:4:4 with DCI colourspace.

At least that's what on the server they lent me everytime they sent me their VPL-1000

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Old 06-01-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Neither.

The bit assignment correlates to colour depth

So obviously, RGB/YCbCr30bit or 36bit signal is not the kind of bit assignment that's required for the "Extended Color."
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post


Expanded Colour correlates to colour space (such are BT 601, REC 709, DCI, F65 etc)

My Pioneer 151FD is only capable of REC 709, the standard for HDTV.


So what is considered to be "Extended Color?" And is there only one display (the Sony) that can produce this "Extended Color?"

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Old 06-01-2013, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

If the movies in the Sony movie server is of any indication, the 4K standard may be 8-bit 4:4:4 with DCI colourspace.

At least that's what on the server they lent me everytime they sent me their VPL-1000

Sony's download service is proprietary, so it's hard to say if that's just what one particular studio is using for now. It may also be the only way they can cram UHD files on a regular BD data disc (their means of pre-loading movies onto the unit currently).

They'll have to step up their game because RED's system is 10 or 12 bit UHD video.

8 bit still has significant banding problems even if it is 4:4:4 component signal since there isn't enough information for fine color and grey scale gradation.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:46 PM
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If it's up to me, I'd rather have 12-bit 4:4:4 frame-by-frame compression on our current HD rather than 4K but still using the archaic 8-bit group-of-picture compression.

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Old 06-01-2013, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Wasn't Deep Color just a fancy consumer-friendly term for 10 or 12 bit video depth? The only possible way of getting that is if the UHD standards committee shifts us off the junky 8 bit stuff of the past and into the pro-grade realm.


That's the way I understood it. My manual states "RGB/YCbCr30bit/36bit" is what's supported for the "Deep Color" format. And I know there are some Sony camcorders capable of recording in "Deep Color." Of course hooking that up to a display that's capable of "Deep Color," would help increase the amount of shades of color (or color detail) we can view on the screen.


However, now that I've sat here and given it some thought, there's much more to this. (So please, just stick with me on this for a few moments...)

I think high bit color simply means more variations between a fixed number of colors a display can show.

For example, let's start with 1 bit (greyscale.) An easy example for JUST Black and White (greyscale) with NO greys, would be would be 1 bit. Anything and everything would be either just Black or just White. 256 shades of grey can be created with 8-bit (greyscale) between those two same shades of Black and White.


Now lets use the above example except this time with color.

Another words, what does bit depth mean when it comes to displaying color?

First, let's look at how many color variations that can be created between Red and Violet (the two extreme colors in a naturally occurring rainbow. (minus ultraviolet.)) 16-bit color can reproduce 32,768 different color shades between Red and Violet. 24-bit color can reproduce 16.7 million different shades between those two same colors of Red and Violet.

So now it's easy to understand that "Bit Depth" simply means the amount of different shades of color that can be displayed between any combinations of colors, nothing more.


Now for Color Space. Above, I mentioned the rainbow as a standard for all the colors between Red and Violet. What I didn't talk about till now is how much of that color spectrum can be created on a display. Is a display capable of showing us all of the color extremes that naturally occur in a rainbow such as extreme Reds, extreme Violets and extreme Blues?

That totally depends on the Color Space of a given capture device (such as film/scanners/video recorder etc.) and if a display is capable of reproducing the same color spectrum (space) that's captured with a recording device.

Simply put, different color space standards determine how much of the color extremes can be captured and displayed. For example, the HDTV color space standard REC 709 is capable of displaying Violet, Red, Blue, Green Yellow etc. However REC 709 (the standard for HDTV) is not capable of correctly displaying extreme Violets, extreme Reds, extreme Blues, extreme Greens, or extreme Yellows etc.

Better than a rainbow, here's a little graphic to demonstrate the differences between color spaces.





As I said above, the color space standard for HDTV is REC 709. From what I have learned about REC 709 is it's not much different than the standard sRGB (a color space used for computer monitors and the internet.) Look at the graphic again. Notice where sRGB falls within all those colors and that's about what the HDTV standard is capable of displaying.

Is there room for improvement? Yep! Will it make a big improvement? I would say it can, like viewing the printed results of a Adobe 98 color space image after having viewed it on a sRGB monitor. There is a difference. And depending on the types of colors captured, it can make a bit more of a dramatic difference such as deeper blues, deeper reds and deeper greens.


Again, a capturing device has to be capable of a recording a wider Color Space (and Deep Color (i.e. color detail)) that future HDTVs can correctly display. Then of course, the extended color pallet can then be enjoyed by the viewer.

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Old 06-01-2013, 09:00 PM
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I understand that a number of older LCD TVs use 10 bit panels, so can support a finer gradation than the 8 bit presently used on Bluray. Such a TV could support Deep Colour 30 bit (or 36 bit with some downconversion) and produce less banding with more subtle colour transitions. In this case it is about colour resolution (ie how small the step is from one tone to another). At a gross level I use the example of 1 bit versus 8 bits to give Black/White or 254 shades of grey between black and white, respectively.

The human vision system is capable of distinguishing more colours than are produced by the phosphors, lamps and filters of recent TVs. In this case it is about colour spanning or colour space (ie how many of the colours that we can theoretically see are capable of being represented). At a gross level I use the example of looking at a colour photo of an exterior landscape by the light of a dim incandescent bulb, versus viewing it outside in bright sunlight. In theory, a larger colour space would also require a greater colour resolution to maintain the same step size between tones.

At least that is the way I view these things.

The studios/manufacturers seem to have gone out of their way to obfuscate and confuse what their products are capable of. Consequently, I have no idea whether xvYCC represents greater colour resolution or space or both in the implementation in the recent TVs.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

If it's up to me, I'd rather have 12-bit 4:4:4 frame-by-frame compression on our current HD rather than 4K but still using the archaic 8-bit group-of-picture compression.

From what I've read, DCI uses 12 bits per color component (36 bits per pixel.) So that sounds like "Deep Color" to me.

And also from what I've read, DCI uses CIE XYZ Color Space. And of course, I have no idea how that compares to sRGB or even Adobe 98.







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Cinema_Initiatives

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:20 PM
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I just realized, even if there were discs and players that could bring about a wider color space, no one has (to my knowledge,) a display that would show more than the REC 709 color space.


Case in point: Computer monitors are sRGB. In Photoshop, one can edit and keep images in the Adobe 98 format, yet you will only see the sRGB color space of the computer monitor.

There are monitors that can display about 99% or more of Adobe 98's color space, however they cost about twice as much as a regular computer monitor.


The idea that one will be able to see a wider color space from a high bit rate Blu-ray would have to be proven to me. The benefit of high bit Blu-rays is of course, possibly a more solid image and possibly some extra detail. If there's any differences in color on a newer version (high bit) Blu-ray title when compared to a earlier Blu-ray of he same title, only has to do with how it was mastered, nothing more.

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Old 06-02-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

And also from what I've read, DCI uses CIE XYZ Color Space. And of course, I have no idea how that compares to sRGB or even Adobe 98.

This has some triangles as well as other information: http://thepostlab.com/pitch-perfect-takes-advantage-of-a-dci-p3-color-workflow/
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:35 PM
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More coming July 16:
  • Godzilla (1998)
  • Men in Black
  • Moneyball
  • Pineapple Express
  • Spider-Man 2
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:38 PM
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Are they going to be region free? I want Spiderman 2 and MIB. (Especially MIB because the original blu-ray was bit-starved).

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Old 06-02-2013, 08:47 PM
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I just updated my post. US gets everything Germany is going to get, months earlier.

I think only Godzilla is on Amazon so far. Amusingly, it already has a 1-star rating.
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Old 06-02-2013, 10:04 PM
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I don't understand the choice of titles 1998 Godzilla? Moneyball? pineapple Express? Bad Teacher? The Other Guys? None of which are demo-material!

why don't just release all the Spiderman, all of MIB, heck, even Resident Evil! I do like Bad Teacher and The Other Guys and I like Godzille for its camp value. But for MI4K? rolleyes.gif

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Old 06-02-2013, 10:35 PM
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If they come out with the 1998 Godzilla version I will definitely be getting it. I never got the previous BD release and I've always like that movie. So like some of the other Mastered in 4K titles I purchased it will be a good reason to get it.

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:00 AM
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:11 AM
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Pineapple Express has a 2K digital finish according to IMDB, so there is either an error there, Sony is doing some fooky stuff, or they went back and somehow re-mastered the movie from the negatives. As for Godzilla, I don't know if I would buy it again unless the video is drastically improved and that won't happen unless they go back to the negative again for a fresh 4K transfer and clean-up with better contrast and color. The current Godzilla Blu is very solid material in the audio department so there's nothing they can do to improve that. What we really need in this series is Black Hawk Down, which I believe is or has undergone a 4K refresh on the down-low.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:50 AM
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They've shown they don't do anything special to the audio... just port the same track from the previous disc. If it was 16 bit, it's still 16 bit. If it was 24 bit, it's still 24 bit.

I'd be interested in MiB, Moneyball, and Spidey 2.

But again... why the frack can't they get the transfer and compression right the first time? Or do they purposefully downgrade the first attempt, only to sell you a "better" one later? It makes one suspicious.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

Pineapple Express has a 2K digital finish according to IMDB, so there is either an error there, Sony is doing some fooky stuff, or they went back and somehow re-mastered the movie from the negatives.

The Total Recall remake also had a 2k DI.

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Old 06-03-2013, 12:25 PM
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The Total Recall remake also had a 2k DI.

2K-->4K-->1080p

Just wait until 8K comes. They'll resample from 4K-->8K but then later "go back to the source" for 2K-->8K... or do 2K-->16K-->8K for the superbit 8K content. LOL
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:26 PM
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I don't think they purposely make a bad disc and now reselling it with better disc.

Even if they use the exact same bitrate, movies compressed with (say) 16 mbps 2 years ago, if the do a recompression with the current system, at 16 mbps the movie will compress better.

Regardless, the MI4K movies tend to have double the bitrate of the original release. So the quality upgrade is NOT SO MUCH from the 4K master but from the newest encoding technology AND much higher bitrate plus the occasional remastering of the uncompressed file such in the case of Spiderman and Ghostbusters.

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Old 06-03-2013, 12:54 PM
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"Ghostbusters" [caps-a-holic]:
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cID=1699#auswahl
ViewED the old Blu last night.
On my system with my eyes in my room the grass was greener (not as neon green as the 4K caps tho), the diff pavements reflectED tints more actuate (asphalt lOOkED like asphalt, concrete lOOkED like concrete, bricks lOOkED like bricks, & stone pavers lOOkED like stone pavers/bricks & stone pavers lOOkED better on my display than either of the two Blu caps). Scenes like the ones w/all the light sources on the roof are all so not as blown out as the old Blu caps reflect. Detail on the streams was no were near as blown out as the old Blu caps show. In the 1st scene in the library basement, the overhead lights were indeed blown out; as i always noticED since 1st playing the old blu. Just didn't know at the time wither it was a transfer or an original master issue.

In the special feature there's one that has talking heads in front of a letterboxED presentation of the film the source of which i have NO idea of; however it appears less blown out the the movie on the same blu & fleshtones for the most part are less pink (some might say less red). Wonder if that 'backround Blu' is more reflective of the new Blu?

Anyone w/the 4K notice diff's from their viewing(s) & the 4K caps?

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Old 06-03-2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I don't think they purposely make a bad disc and now reselling it with better disc.

Even if they use the exact same bitrate, movies compressed with (say) 16 mbps 2 years ago, if the do a recompression with the current system, at 16 mbps the movie will compress better.

Regardless, the MI4K movies tend to have double the bitrate of the original release. So the quality upgrade is NOT SO MUCH from the 4K master but from the newest encoding technology AND much higher bitrate plus the occasional remastering of the uncompressed file such in the case of Spiderman and Ghostbusters.

Well, yeah. It's no coincidence that the titles with the biggest visible differences have been given new transfers, like Ghostbusters and Spider-Man. When you've already got a DI then there is no new film-to-digital transfer, just a new encode from the same source.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:56 PM
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Taxi Driver 4K-mastered Blu-ray vs. regular Blu-ray screencaps:

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cID=1705#auswahl

I can see a slight improvement in the 4K-mastered edition. Would I notice it in a moving image on a TV? Probably doubtful.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:14 PM
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The screenshots on Blu-ray.com are not identical frames...
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