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post #181 of 296 Old 10-09-2013, 07:28 PM
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I've only watched short sections of the new 35th Anniversary release. I'm saving the a full viewing for the Booth Bijou Garage Theater Fright Night next week! We're pairing 'Halloween' with 1978's 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'! Many of our regular guests are too chicken to show up for that combo, but we did manage to dig up a few brave souls!

Moooowahaha!

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post #182 of 296 Old 10-10-2013, 08:52 AM
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That's a great double feature !


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post #183 of 296 Old 10-10-2013, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

That's not the way I remember reading about it, but if what you say is true, then how do you explain this release? Did Cundey (and Carpenter, who also saw this new transfer according to Cundey) change his mind? Because he seems pretty happy about this version, if the interviews that have been posted are in any way accurate...

And there's really no debating that the look of that release was (and is) revisionist. If you prefer that look, great, but it's not the way the film originally looked.

The reality of the situation is that both transfers are probably revisionist. The most likely scenario is that, each time he approves a new color transfer, Dean Cundey signs off on what he thinks the movie should look like at that moment in time. If he were making the movie for the first time in 1999, the colors on the THX DVD are what he would have graded at that time. If he were making the movie for the first time today, the colors on the new Blu-ray are what he'd grade at this time. Neither has any bearing on what the movie actually looked like in 1978.
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post #184 of 296 Old 10-10-2013, 11:26 AM
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There ya go. Couldn't have said it better.

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post #185 of 296 Old 10-10-2013, 01:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The reality of the situation is that both transfers are probably revisionist. The most likely scenario is that, each time he approves a new color transfer, Dean Cundey signs off on what he thinks the movie should look like at that moment in time. If he were making the movie for the first time in 1999, the colors on the THX DVD are what he would have graded at that time. If he were making the movie for the first time today, the colors on the new Blu-ray are what he'd grade at this time. Neither has any bearing on what the movie actually looked like in 1978.
Except that the 1999 DVD changes weren't done by Cundey, they were done by Adam Adams. Cundey signed off after the fact, but I can't find any evidence (written or on the limited edition THX DVD) that would suggest that he had much (if anything) to do with it other than that. If there is documentation, I would love to read it.

We know that Cundey was much more involved with this release than the 1999 version. And of course there will be always be some revisionism in a straight from OCN transfer since the timing (which was accomplished chemically back in the day, of course) has to be redone digitally. But even in the comparisons of past releases, the 1999 release sticks out like a sore thumb as the odd man out.

At the end of the day, I'm going to defer to Cundey and Carpenter, who both are supposedly quite happy with the color timing of this release. YMMV.
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There ya go. Couldn't have said it better.
Yeah, and he even said it without throwing in a douchey "Uh..." Imagine that!
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post #186 of 296 Old 10-10-2013, 05:32 PM
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For all of you that categorically prefer the autumnal coloring of the trees in the 1999 THX DVD because it looks more like Illinois and not like California, well, don't let this bother you when you watch the THX DVD next time:

i-QwRNp7N.jpg


Because those types of trees are SOOOOOO plentiful in Illinois!

rolleyes.gif

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post #187 of 296 Old 10-10-2013, 06:58 PM
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Never saw the palm tree before. Few have or would since it's not the focus of attention in the shot.


And maybe one or two people here need to lighten up. Good grief.

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post #188 of 296 Old 10-10-2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Never saw the palm tree before.

And now you'll notice it EVERY time you watch that scene!

i-SFdc37G.jpg


smile.gif


All kidding aside, you've made my point! Back in 1978, nobody noticed that the trees were too green for Illinois in late October.

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post #189 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth View Post

For all of you that categorically prefer the autumnal coloring of the trees in the 1999 THX DVD because it looks more like Illinois and not like California, well, don't let this bother you when you watch the THX DVD next time:

i-QwRNp7N.jpg


Because those types of trees are SOOOOOO plentiful in Illinois!

rolleyes.gif

Mark
Once you're aware of them you do so see the palm tree screw up in movies and TV. A good one was on a soap opera "Days of our Lives, the town of Salem in on the northern east coast, so they would have a dock on the ocean, except in a long shot they didn't get palm trees out of the edge of shot. Some of the best screw ups is when they add pick up shots that aren't credited for example. A movie shot in Seattle, basically set there and there is a pay phone scene in a rough neighborhood that said Pac Bell on it. Pac Bell has no pay phones up there.
The one that really makes you wonder was a direct to video film. It was set in the Seattle area filmed in Canada, but there is one scene where two of the
main characters that are standing in an area that could be Pasadena, CA and one of them is holding a coffee cup from Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf. There are several locations for that chain in the Pasadena area. There were none in Seattle or in Canada. How hard would it be to use a plain white cup.

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post #190 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette View Post

Once upon a time someone here made a definitive version of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly and provided files and instructions on how one could take the audio from one source, say the original mono from the 2007 release and sync it to the video of another source, say the 2013 release. It would be awesome if someone could provide similar guidance for Halloween.

I love quoting myself, it is the height of Internet narcissism. smile.gif Anyway, I thought I would interrupt the discussion of palm trees here for a minute to say thanks to the individual who responded to the post above about "crossing the streams", so-to-speak. wink.gif The run times are the same and sync up wonderfully. I'll try to keep this as vague as possible as it appears that post was deleted, but I just need to put this project on a BD now, which always winds up rather hairy for me with 2.35:1 films for some reason.
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post #191 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Except that the 1999 DVD changes weren't done by Cundey, they were done by Adam Adams. Cundey signed off after the fact, but I can't find any evidence (written or on the limited edition THX DVD) that would suggest that he had much (if anything) to do with it other than that. If there is documentation, I would love to read it.

The operative words here being: Cundey signed off. Regardless of how much time he personally spent in the mastering suite, at the end of the process, Dean Cundey gave his stamp of approval to the results. He saw the finished product and said: "Yup, that looks good. Great job! Those fall colors look awesome. This is what the movie Halloween should look like. Put my name on that package. I fully endorse this product 100%. This DVD is cinematographer Dean Cundey approved!"
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At the end of the day, I'm going to defer to Cundey and Carpenter, who both are supposedly quite happy with the color timing of this release.

Correction: You have chosen to defer to 2013 Dean Cundey, rather than 1999 Dean Cundey. That's your prerogative, but we are now 35 years away from the film's production, and Cundey has contradicted himself when approving radically different color transfers for this movie. And John Carpenter has admitted in interviews that his vision is failing, so his opinion should be taken with a grain of salt as well.

I personally don't take it as a given that the new disc is less revisionist than the old disc. I doubt that either one truly represents what the movie looked like in 1978.

Lacking a definitive reference source, the best any of us can do as viewers is choose the color transfer we personally find most suitable for the movie. For some people, that's the new Blu-ray. For others, it will be the 1999 DVD. Pick the one you like and enjoy it. But relying solely on Dean Cundey's word that one is more correct than another is problematic, because he has clearly changed his mind on what constitutes "correct" for this movie over the years.
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post #192 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 08:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The operative words here being: Cundey signed off. Regardless of how much time he personally spent in the mastering suite, at the end of the process, Dean Cundey gave his stamp of approval to the results. He saw the finished product and said: "Yup, that looks good. Great job! Those fall colors look awesome. This is what the movie Halloween should look like. Put my name on that package. I fully endorse this product 100%. This DVD is cinematographer Dean Cundey approved!"
We don't know the circumstances surrounding that release and his approval of the timing. Maybe it was sold to him as a way to get the version he always wanted but couldn't due to time and financial restraints (ala the special editions of the Star Wars trilogy.) Maybe he signed off in exchange for a job he was in the running for, or for a better paycheck for a job he was already hired for. See? I can suppose (and outright make things up) too - it doesn't mean there's necessarily any basis in reality for any of those scenarios any more than there is for the made-up quote above.

What I do know is that the 1999 THX looks decidedly different from any of the past releases (and has a fake, digital quality to the color timing that comes from using tools that weren't really up to the task yet.) I also know that, rather than simply signing off on someone else's work, that Cundey was intimately involved with the creation of this master. While that may not be good enough for you, after having seen the disc myself, it's definitely good enough for me. If Cundey wanted it to look the same as (or even similar to) the 1999 Adam Adams version, he would have made it look like that. Clearly he didn't want that. Even if he wanted the film to look like that in 99, that was clearly revisionism and a way for him to "fix" problems that were inherent to the film.

At the end of the day, Cundey and Carpenter are happy with the timing on the release, and so am I. YMMV.
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post #193 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

We don't know the circumstances surrounding that release and his approval of the timing. Maybe it was sold to him as a way to get the version he always wanted but couldn't due to time and financial restraints (ala the special editions of the Star Wars trilogy.) Maybe he signed off in exchange for a job he was in the running for, or for a better paycheck for a job he was already hired for. See? I can suppose (and outright make things up) too - it doesn't mean there's necessarily any basis in reality for any of those scenarios any more than there is for the made-up quote above.

Yeah, and maybe aliens kidnapped him and anally probed him repeatedly until he agreed to their unfathomable demand that he approve the wrong color timing for the DVD. If we're going to concoct conspiracy theories about this, anything goes!

What we actually do know is that, in 1999, Dean Cundey gave his stamp of approval to the THX DVD. If there were circumstances behind that which forced him to approve a product he knew was incorrect, that only supports my contention that Cundey is not necessarily a reliable resource for determining accurate colors for the film. He has been inconsistent in his approvals for what those colors should look like.

Why should we trust Cundey today more than we trusted him in 1999? Because you like the Blu-ray better? Well, OK, good, enjoy it. But don't presume to know definitively that it's not just as revisionist as the 1999 DVD was.
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At the end of the day, Cundey and Carpenter are happy with the timing on the release, and so am I. YMMV.

Ultimately, what matters is that you're happy with it. It actually isn't my intent to dissuade anyone from liking the Blu-ray. I happen to like the colors on the Apocalypse Now Blu-ray, for example, even though I know they're revisionist. (No two releases of that movie have ever looked the same.) I'm just fascinated with the story of what happened to Halloween and would love to get to the bottom of what the movie really looked like in 1978. Unfortunately, I don't think we have any way of knowing that right now.
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post #194 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 10:19 AM
 
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Now here's an interesting interview that suggests that Cundey supervised the final touches to the transfer, with most of the initial work done by others before he was brought in...
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Originally Posted by Daily Dead 
Daily Dead: Were you approached to take a look at this new transfer or had you heard about it and reached out to Anchor Bay to be part of the process?

Dean Cundey: I was approached actually; John had looked at this new version and thought it looked really good, but suggested that I go in to oversee some final work on it so that fans would finally have the version they deserve. See, a lot of the previous editions were made from a print or a previous digital version and the people working on those versions were just doing what they thought was right. When you have a Xerox of a Xerox of a Xerox though, that just doesn’t translate; things get skewed.

So I was very impressed by the fact that, for this release, they used the original camera material because they wanted to make this the definitive version. For me, it’s the most accurate portrayal of how John and I wanted Halloween to be seen. Most fans have never seen Halloween the right way either between all the TV, VHS and DVD versions over the years so this Blu-ray is really something special.

I wish they'd had some cameras rolling when he was working with them - would've made a great little doc and could've given us some more insight into the thought process behind this release.
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post #195 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 10:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Yeah, and maybe aliens kidnapped him and anally probed him repeatedly until he agreed to their unfathomable demand that he approve the wrong color timing for the DVD. If we're going to concoct conspiracy theories about this, anything goes!
I was replying in kind to your concocted quote. I think I made that pretty clear in the post. It's right there, so I don't know why you would respond like that unless you just posted a knee-jerk response after only skimming my post.

And again (literally, because now I'm just repeating myself,) out of all of the home video releases, the 99 version sticks out like a sore thumb. It's the odd man out, small differences here and there notwithstanding.

As I said before, there will always, of course, be some revisionism in a straight from OCN transfer since the timing (which was accomplished chemically back in the day, of course) has to be redone digitally. That said, I do not believe that this version is "just as revisionist as the 1999 DVD was" based on the evidence at hand.
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post #196 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The operative words here being: Cundey signed off. Regardless of how much time he personally spent in the mastering suite, at the end of the process, Dean Cundey gave his stamp of approval to the results. He saw the finished product and said: "Yup, that looks good. Great job! Those fall colors look awesome. This is what the movie Halloween should look like. Put my name on that package. I fully endorse this product 100%. This DVD is cinematographer Dean Cundey approved!"

I have serious doubts that Cundey's approval of the 1999 THX DVD was that elaborate. Point: The extensive production diaries for the '99 THX DVD ( I linked them earlier in the thread) don't mention Cundey anywhere. Not once.

In fact, at this point, I think "Cundey's approval" of the 1999 THX DVD is a fictional story. I think the marketing department approved it and used Cundey's name with permission.

Conversely, we know from a personal interview that Cundey not only approved the 2013 Blu-ray, but SUPERVISED the transfer!. He makes reference to previous people messing with the colors and such and he made a point that it is now restored to how it was originally intended to look.

I don't have any real problem with people preferring the look of the 1999 THX DVD. But there simply isn't ANY evidence that Cundey watched the entire thing and then gave it his stamp of approval. Just the opposite, in fact, because he's not mentioned in the production diaries.

Mark
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post #197 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth View Post

I have serious doubts that Cundey's approval of the 1999 THX DVD was that elaborate. Point: The extensive production diaries for the '99 THX DVD ( I linked them earlier in the thread) don't mention Cundey anywhere. Not once.

He doesn't need to have been present during the mastering sessions to have watched and approved the final result when it was done.
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In fact, at this point, I think "Cundey's approval" of the 1999 THX DVD is a fictional story. I think the marketing department approved it and used Cundey's name with permission.

Why would he give his permission to say that he approved the transfer if he didn't actually approve the transfer? Suppose you're right about this, do you really think this theory gives Dean Cundey's word today more credence? You're basically calling him a sell-out who gave a rubber-stamp to a product he didn't even look at.
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But there simply isn't ANY evidence that Cundey watched the entire thing and then gave it his stamp of approval.

If he didn't approve the transfer, then the DVD packaging that explicitly states that he did would be the basis for a nice lawsuit.

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post #198 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 12:08 PM
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I think it's fairly documented on the web Cundey was involved greatly in the 99 DVD version. Just look for the production diary, and many quotes in several Halloween forums about it.

My point is the 99 production diary sells us past masters colors sucked and 99 was better and it was, for anyone with common sense (the guy who did TITANIC color corrected it!)

Now, they release a version that goes back more or less with the previously "it sucks!" color scheme.

I say the new version is dodgy. Bought the steelbook from the UK anyway, but still, it's dodgy.
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post #199 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

And again (literally, because now I'm just repeating myself,) out of all of the home video releases, the 99 version sticks out like a sore thumb. It's the odd man out, small differences here and there notwithstanding.

I think you're misrepresenting just how different the new Blu-ray looks than other previous video transfers, not just the 1999 DVD. It's much darker and monotonously bluer than any prior video release. Its colors look very little like, for example, the 1994 Criterion Collection Laserdisc that was claimed at the time to have been "made from a newly minted 35mm Panavision print made from the original negative" and was approved by John Carpenter.

You may write these off as "small differences here and there," but I could argue that the Blu-ray's colors look just as digital and artificial as the 1999 DVD, just in different ways.

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post #200 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 03:00 PM
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A friend of mine just synced up the Criterion Laserdisc's PCM sound to thew new Blu-Ray. He then screen capped it in numerous places and screen capped the other BD release, the 99 THX DVD release, the much hated DiviMax (DiviSh!t) DVD, the laserdisc and even the VHS and none of them look alike! The color timing all all would appear revisionist since we don't know exactly what the 35mm prints looked like.

This thread has pretty much derailed and gotten overly personal. We do know it is a documented fact that Cundy and Carpenter approved the 99 THX transfer and may have been involved heavily. It's also a fact that Cundy and Carpenter approved this new master AND the old Criterion transfer!

So what does that mean? That we will never know which color timing is the original, if any. And that means everyone just CHILL OUT and enjoy the version YOU most like. Simple as that.

It's not like we have a shortage of choices. cool.gif
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post #201 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdvision View Post

I think it's fairly documented on the web Cundey was involved greatly in the 99 DVD version. Just look for the production diary, and many quotes in several Halloween forums about it.

Cundey's name isn't mentioned in the production diary. Not even once!

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post #202 of 296 Old 10-11-2013, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
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We do know it is a documented fact that Cundy and Carpenter approved the 99 THX transfer and may have been involved heavily. It's also a fact that Cundy and Carpenter approved this new master AND the old Criterion transfer!

So what does that mean? That we will never know which color timing is the original, if any.
Though I think you can be pretty confident that they didn't selectively make the trees fall-colored with analog color timing in 1978.
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post #203 of 296 Old 10-12-2013, 03:28 AM
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They wouldn't have to, it's just a shift in the yellow channel, which can be done in digital as well as analog color timing.

Regarding Cundey / 99, I think the official Halloween site forum offers clear quotes from Bill Lusting, thought I don't have the time to search right now. Also some Horror forums have reproduced them.
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post #204 of 296 Old 10-12-2013, 06:43 AM
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Here's the link for the 1999 THX DVD Production Diary:

http://www.dvdreview.com/html/halloween_special_edition_-_the_beginning.shtml

Someone please show me where Cundey's name is mentioned.

Mark


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post #205 of 296 Old 10-13-2013, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Though I think you can be pretty confident that they didn't selectively make the trees fall-colored with analog color timing in 1978.

There are a few ways they could of, but not on the shoe-string budget or without looking like crap. Not to mention nobody has come with a supplement with the director claiming it was done and quite frankly never will.
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post #206 of 296 Old 10-13-2013, 04:22 PM
 
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Here's another recent interview with Cundey (note the spelling - there's an "e" in the man's last name, people):

Not that I have any illusions that this will change any minds or settle any arguments or anything like that...
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post #207 of 296 Old 10-13-2013, 06:57 PM
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After watching that video, I don't know how anyone can argue any previous transfer is as accurate to the intended theatrical presentation as the 35th Anniversary Blu-ray. Cundey specifically mentions that some of the earlier transfers removed the blue, which was an INTENDED look of the film.

The video also makes it obvious that Cundey was NOT involved with the 1999 THX DVD. He specifically states that "nobody called me" for previous releases!

So much for any previous release being truly "Cundey Approved". Don't bitch about your THX DVD stating that on the package because it's not Cundey's fault. He says nobody called him.

Mark
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post #208 of 296 Old 10-14-2013, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

This thread has pretty much derailed and gotten overly personal.
Yeah, that tends to happen in Halloween thread for some reason. wink.gif

Honestly, folks, people are merely stating *preferences* here for this color timing or that. One may be revisionist or not, and Cundey may be reliable or not, but seriously, as Rob says in High Fidelity, "how can it be bulls**t to state a preference"? It really can't. Where things get contentious is when you have one person who says "well, the new version may be more accurate (or maybe not), but I PREFER the 1999 look". Now, that's a perfectly acceptable stance to take as a fan (just as is preferring the new look). But instead of accepting that, we have some who would rather argue the point and say "no, you're wrong, and the colors you like are wrong, and here's proof". But the problem is, you can't prove that someone's preference is incorrect. It's simply what they personally like better.

I consider myself rather fortunate in the case of Halloween. The lack of the original mono makes this an impossible disc to enjoy for my tastes, regardless of which color timing I accept as original or personally prefer watching. I will say that I think it's rather funny that the very people who are pounding the "this is how it originally looked in theaters 35 years ago and, as such, it's the only valid presentation of the film" drum are somehow the very same people who don't care at all about the original audio not being present for the first time in 35 years.
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post #209 of 296 Old 10-14-2013, 06:40 PM
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Adam Jahnke:

The disc also includes the same problematic mono track that appeared on the previous Blu-ray release. There has been grumbling that the tracks are not the same, however we have it on good authority that they are. Either way, it’s a bit of a moot point because neither release features the original 1978 mono track, which is what audio purists want anyway. That hasn’t been (and isn’t going to be) delivered this time around – perhaps for the film’s 40th Anniversary in 2018.


I told him this was wrong and how to verify, yet he's unwilling.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #210 of 296 Old 10-15-2013, 07:23 AM
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Not only is the mono track a complete poop filled fake, but the mono track on the prior BD was encoded at a paltry 192kbps, sounding shrill and downright lame compared to the laserdisc. So neither Blu-Ray comes close to delivering the goods.

I know of four people (not just internet friends) who have already captured their Criterion Laserdisc PCM soundtracks and synced them up with the new BluRay. Samples have been posted online in numerous forums. The difference in quality is astounding. I'll be doing the same when I have the time.

Of course, some are just sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending this release has no problems. rolleyes.gif

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