Blu Rays with incorrectly encoded for RGB PC Levels. - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 84 Old 05-28-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

PC levels would mean all black is medium gray.

 

I'd respectfully disagree with that statement. If the content on a Blu-ray video disc was encoded with full-range 0-255 "PC levels", then the blacks would appear crushed (and overly dark) on a properly calibrated TV, rather than too bright. Maybe you're referring to something else though, like a PC setting on your TV or player, which may work differently.


Blu-ray video discs should follow the Rec. 709 practice of encoding reference black at Y'=16, and white at Y'=235. Those are the values that TV/video equipment should also be calibrated to, though some like to leave some extra headroom above Y'=235 which is fine.


I took another look at The Name of The Rose btw, and the blacks on much of that transfer also appear to be elevated, rather than too dark. The shadows are pretty dense on that title, which is why I suspected that the black levels might've been encoded too darkly. But that doesn't seem to be the case.


There are a few dark scenes in the film where the blacks look pretty close to the Y'=16 spec. But in most dark scenes the blacks actually appear to be brighter than Y'=16, which sort of surprised me. So I'd probably include this film in the same category as Risky Business and Raiders. Generally speaking, all three films have elevated blacks imo.


Another good example of this in Raiders is the scene in the cave at ~ 5:06-5:07, where Indy momentarily turns his back to the screen. The blacks all seem to be "hovering" above Y'=16 in that shot, and look more like dark gray. That may be by design, but it looks bad on my displays.

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post #62 of 84 Old 05-29-2014, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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The above titles are how the problem appears.

Black is set higher in PC levels so they appear normal under RGB-PC settings.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
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post #63 of 84 Old 05-29-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kildemoes View Post

I can confirm "The Arival" and add to the List,

- Elizabeth the golden Age, always looks washed out, dark level never reaches black.
- My Sassy Girl (Jap 2001) Japan Blu-Ray, same Problem.

Yes, Elizabeth the Golden age has very grey blacks. Never thought about it being an encoding error.

Never noticed this in Risky Business or Raiders but I haven't watched either disc on my newer projector.
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post #64 of 84 Old 05-30-2014, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Nothing is wrong with Risky Business or Raiders.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #65 of 84 Old 06-03-2014, 07:06 AM
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The two Lady Snowblood films from Arrow and their recent Blind Woman's Curse disc. Also the Gatchaman Complete Collection from Sentai, Destory All Monsters from Media Blasters and Godzilla vs. Biollante from Echo Bridge. All of these suffer from this problem.
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post #66 of 84 Old 06-04-2014, 10:55 PM
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Hey guys, thanks for all the info on this topic, I read through most of this and came to an understanding. However, just to clarify things fully I want to ask a question:

 

I have a calibrator coming in to calibrate my HDTV that will be mainly used with my laptop. I will be watching both North American movies (said to be in 16-235 RBG format) and Japanese anime (said to be in 0-255 RGB format - although some people are saying that Japan has adopted the 16-235 format). Note that all these movies are stored in my hard drive in the form of .mkv files and I will be using whatever media player allows me to decide the ouput to be dynamic range full (0-255) or limited (although my Nvidia graphics driver also lets me do this). Now the issue comes when the calibrator is asking me whether I want this calibration done while my PC outputs in 0-255 RGB (which he STRONGLY recommends against), or when it outputs in limited range (16-235), which he recommends, but only because the other clients he has dealt with using blu ray players with their TV's and not PC's, so my issue would be a non-issue for them. I've been racking my brain trying to figure this out, but regardless of what I do, if I set my Sony HDTV right now to accept dynamic range full (0-255) and set my laptop to also output in dynamic range full, the picture looks better! This goes against what the TV guys are saying where its best to keep both set at limited! Please help, as I can only afford to calibrate once, so I have to decide between him calibrating while both PC and TV are set at full dynamic range or limited. Although, he may offer to do both (which will double the work he has to do, which many even increase the cost for me), but even then I highly doubt my TV will be able to save both those calibration sets in the form of presets... forcing me to chose 1 over the other or manually dial in either present depending on what has the best image for different movies/anime :/ I will deeply appreciate any and all input for this :)

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post #67 of 84 Old 06-05-2014, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NadSoori View Post

Hey guys, thanks for all the info on this topic, I read through most of this and came to an understanding. However, just to clarify things fully I want to ask a question:

I have a calibrator coming in to calibrate my HDTV that will be mainly used with my laptop. I will be watching both North American movies (said to be in 16-235 RBG format) and Japanese anime (said to be in 0-255 RGB format - although some people are saying that Japan has adopted the 16-235 format). Note that all these movies are stored in my hard drive in the form of .mkv files and I will be using whatever media player allows me to decide the ouput to be dynamic range full (0-255) or limited (although my Nvidia graphics driver also lets me do this). Now the issue comes when the calibrator is asking me whether I want this calibration done while my PC outputs in 0-255 RGB (which he STRONGLY recommends against), or when it outputs in limited range (16-235), which he recommends, but only because the other clients he has dealt with using blu ray players with their TV's and not PC's, so my issue would be a non-issue for them. I've been racking my brain trying to figure this out, but regardless of what I do, if I set my Sony HDTV right now to accept dynamic range full (0-255) and set my laptop to also output in dynamic range full, the picture looks better! This goes against what the TV guys are saying where its best to keep both set at limited! Please help, as I can only afford to calibrate once, so I have to decide between him calibrating while both PC and TV are set at full dynamic range or limited. Although, he may offer to do both (which will double the work he has to do, which many even increase the cost for me), but even then I highly doubt my TV will be able to save both those calibration sets in the form of presets... forcing me to chose 1 over the other or manually dial in either present depending on what has the best image for different movies/anime :/ I will deeply appreciate any and all input for this smile.gif
Please post your request for help in the Display Calibration Forum because you should get more responses and this thread is for the discussion of incorrectly encoded BDs. Thanks.

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post #68 of 84 Old 06-08-2014, 09:40 AM
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Solomon Kane, Black Death, Arachnophobia. Short Term 12 I think too.
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post #69 of 84 Old 06-08-2014, 04:09 PM
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Arachnophobia did have this problem, but it was corrected before it hit stores. A few review copies got out with the wrong black levels. I believe the caps at DVDBeaver are the first disc, whilst the ones at Blu-ray.com are the new one.
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post #70 of 84 Old 06-08-2014, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Almost all Japanese masters are encoded for PC Level...

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #71 of 84 Old 06-08-2014, 07:08 PM
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Yeah, it's a really common problem for anime and Japanese cinema BDs released by US companies. I've long had the theory that some idiot in the chain is mistakenly trying to compensate for NTSC-J black level differences, whether it be on the Japanese side or the US side.
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post #72 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 04:46 PM
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Sat down tonight with Third Window's release of Tetsuo: The Iron Man (Tetsuo II: Body Hammer is fine) to find it has incorrect colour space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post
There's quite a few anime releases like this, the ones I know of for sure are Serial Experiments Lain and Black Lagoon (only the US releases from Funimation, the Japanese releases are fine).
I also had a peek at my copy of Serial Experiments Lain to find that this is not the case at all. Whilst black levels are slightly weaker than the Japanese Blu-ray, it's not enough for it to be anything to do with Video/PC levels (maybe a change in gamma?). If you do switch over to PC levels, a lot of detail gets lost in the blacks, though the awful banding is still there.

Last edited by EddieLarkin; Today at 02:56 PM.
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post #73 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 07:22 PM
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Huh, interesting. Maybe it is just some idiot mistakenly trying to compensate for NTSC-J by cranking up the brightness, then.
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post #74 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 07:27 PM
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(He speaks! For the first time in a good while!) Sorry, but I finally just had to say something. While I have no doubt there are BDs with full-on RGB levels, many/most of the Asian (specifically Japanese) releases cited here don't actually have that ailment. They're merely encoded with NTSC-J black level, which is easily compensated for by bumping down brightness a few notches on one display (Boy, that was hard)! Likewise, Im not sure some of you understand NTSC-J black level will appear to have anemic, washed out blacks by default on a standard ntsc display. It isn't because someone has attempted to compensate - it's because NO compensation has been made. That's just ntsc-j gamma in its natural state. The entire spectrum is not affected, only black level. And yes it's true this shouldn't even rear its head on BD since it's a dumb holdover from dvd/sd broadcast which BD isn't beholden to, but old habits die hard and blah blah.
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post #75 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaline View Post
(He speaks! For the first time in a good while!) Sorry, but I finally just had to say something. While I have no doubt there are BDs with full-on RGB levels, many/most of the Asian (specifically Japanese) releases cited here don't actually have that ailment. They're merely encoded with NTSC-J black level, which is easily compensated for by bumping down brightness a few notches on one display (Boy, that was hard)!
You don't compensate for NTSC-J by turning down the brightness, you turn it up. The IRE in NTSC-J is lower than standard NTSC, not higher. And I was talking about US releases of anime, not Japanese releases. The US releases are the ones that have unnaturally high brightness. They should be the same since NTSC-J differences only apply to analog signals, not digital ones. As you said, old habits die hard, which is why I said some idiot is likely trying to compensate for a nonexistent difference.
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post #76 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jd213 View Post
You don't compensate for NTSC-J by turning down the brightness, you turn it up. The IRE in NTSC-J is lower than standard NTSC, not higher. And I was talking about US releases of anime, not Japanese releases. The US releases are the ones that have unnaturally high brightness. They should be the same since NTSC-J differences only apply to analog signals, not digital ones. As you said, old habits die hard, which is why I said some idiot is likely trying to compensate for a nonexistent difference.
Wow, Speedy Gonzalez over here! By AVS standards, at least. You do realize that was a generalized reply not aimed solely at yourself, right? Perhaps you've been talking solely about north american releases of JP content--congratulations--but others have clearly touched on native JP releases. I know the issue has manifested on NA distrbuted JP content--I own several such releases. But I also have JP DVDs/BDs exhibiting the exact same issue. So regardless of the exact root of the problem, the culprit(s) and whether it's misguided-but-deliberate or total incompetence, I can definitively say it isn't limited to domestic releases of JP content.

Last edited by Alkaline; 07-11-2014 at 09:04 PM.
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post #77 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaline View Post
Wow, Speedy Gonzalez over here! By AVS standards, at least. You do realize that was a generalized reply not aimed solely at yourself, right?
Whatever. Your "generalized reply" still got the facts about NTSC-J backwards.
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post #78 of 84 Old 07-12-2014, 03:09 PM
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As Lyris explained on the first page of this thread, both of you are wrong. Black levels are not different between Japan and the US/EU for digital/HD content. NTSC-J and NTSC-U are different but they are terms relating to SD analogue material only, and have nothing to do with HD mastering or Blu-rays. This is a Video/PC levels issue (16-235/0-255).

Anyway, Mill Creek's releases of the Gamera films are another example I've just discovered, when I sat down with them tonight.
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post #79 of 84 Old 07-12-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jd213 View Post
Whatever. Your "generalized reply" still got the facts about NTSC-J backwards.
You forgot to stick out your tongue and say nanny-boo-boo! That's important, you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
As Lyris explained on the first page of this thread, both of you are wrong. Black levels are not different between Japan and the US/EU for digital/HD content. NTSC-J and NTSC-U are different but they are terms relating to SD analogue material only, and have nothing to do with HD mastering or Blu-rays. This is a Video/PC levels issue (16-235/0-255).

Anyway, Mill Creek's releases of the Gamera films are another example I've just discovered, when I sat down with them tonight.
First, I will first admit for the record that I have gotten my threads confused. I read back through this one and see there is little to no discussion of JP releases with regard to black level disparity. No, that discussion transpired on another thread--I think one dedicated to a specific JP release (a Godzilla film maybe?). I'll have to look for it. That said, I'm not a total mouthbreather and understand that the ntsc-j black level disparity SHOULDN'T apply to digital tv standards or digital media, hd or otherwise. But what I do know is that some JP dvd/bd releases (as with some north american releases of JP content) are plagued with an anemic black level that requires a small brightness adjustment to look right but an otherwise correct color space, which yes, I still suspect some are mistaking for a completely incorrect color space--as discussed here--in the case of some releases. Whether it's ntsc-j black level mistakenly applied or unnecessary compensation for such deliberately applied, I've almost ceased caring at this point. Though irritating it's a trivial annoyance in the grand scheme with an easy fix.

Last edited by Alkaline; 07-12-2014 at 04:08 PM.
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post #80 of 84 Old 07-12-2014, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
As Lyris explained on the first page of this thread, both of you are wrong. Black levels are not different between Japan and the US/EU for digital/HD content.
They shouldn't be different, but they are for many discs. That's the problem.
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post #81 of 84 Old 07-24-2014, 07:51 AM
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I skipped through Blind Woman's Curse last night and noticed it was another Arrow title with this problem. So far that makes (by my reckoning):

Lady Snowblood
The Key
All Ladies Do It
Blind Woman's Curse
Django Prepare a Coffin

I also suspect Demons/Demons 2 of being affected from what I've seen of the captures elsewhere. Certainly if one opens the image in Photoshop and performs a quick input levels change to 16-235 they look a lot better (and closer to the Synapse releases). Blacks are slightly crushed in a couple of scenes, but on the whole they look a lot better.

Odd that this wasn't compensated for before release. Someone must have spotted it. One of those mysteries, like why is the gamma on some of their titles slightly elevated compared to the US equivalents (although that applies to a lot of UK distributors)?

Other Italian films like Score, Camille 2000 and The Liquorish Quartet are unaffected. I'm not sure about Cheeky or Frivolous Lola.

Thankfully these days I have a player that allows me to change the output from YCbCr to RGB expanded or limited (my old Sony only had one option for RGB, which was locked to limited), so I can mitigate the impact of this phenomenon.

Last edited by Mentasm; 07-24-2014 at 07:54 AM.
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post #82 of 84 Old 07-25-2014, 12:19 PM
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The German disc of Maximum Overdrive is another offender.

Don't tug on that, you never know what it might be attached to...
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post #83 of 84 Old 07-30-2014, 01:42 AM
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The third season of "Falling Skies" in the UK 3 season box has a black level well above 16. I had to map black to -15 on my Lumagen for an acceptable picture.
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post #84 of 84 Old 07-30-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Arrow's Demons movies are just un-color corrected raw transfers.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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