Blu Rays with incorrectly encoded for RGB PC Levels. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 103 Old 10-25-2013, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Blu Rays with incorrectly encoded for RGB PC Levels.

I'm making a list for titles sent to market with RGB PC Levels as opposed to RGB Video Level standard. This results in blacks never dipping below medium gray. As of yet no recalls have been made.

*The Arrival: Lionsgate, 2009 US
*Maniac: Blue Underground. 2010 US
*Double Impact 20th Century Fox, 2012 US
*Margin Call Lionsgate, 2011 US
*H.G. Lewis Blood Trilogy, 2011 US
*All Ladies Do It Arrow Video, 2013 UK
*The Key Arrow Video, 2013 UK
*Rumble in the Bronx, 2013 UK
*Frankenstein's Army MPI, 2013 US
*Dawn of the Dead (U.S. Theatrical & Extended Cannes cuts) Happinet, 2013 JP
*The Twilight Samurai, Twilight Time 2014 US

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.

Last edited by Fanboyz; Today at 03:06 PM.
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post #2 of 103 Old 10-26-2013, 07:43 AM
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There's quite a few anime releases like this, the ones I know of for sure are Serial Experiments Lain and Black Lagoon (only the US releases from Funimation, the Japanese releases are fine).
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post #3 of 103 Old 10-26-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I'm making a list for titles sent to market with blacks set to the wrong standard, as of yet no recalls have been made.

* "Maniac" : Blue Underground. 2010
*"Double Impact": 20th Century Fox, 2012

You mean PC vs Studio video levels on disc? IRE is for analog video only. And for analog video IRE 7.5 was the standard for NTSC video IIRC. (I also seem to recall Japan used NTSC video with IRE 0 for reference black.) Prior to digital output on DVD players, there were many discussions about this in the DVD player forum.

larry

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post #4 of 103 Old 10-26-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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What I mean is the color black is medium gray- because it's mastered to look "correct" on a monitor where black is 7.5 ire.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #5 of 103 Old 10-26-2013, 04:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

What I mean is the color black is medium gray- because it's mastered to look "correct" on a monitor where black is 7.5 ire.

You got me beat on this one, I have no idea what your on about?

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post #6 of 103 Old 10-26-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

What I mean is the color black is medium gray- because it's mastered to look "correct" on a monitor where black is 7.5 ire.

Most noticeable when there are matting bars I suspect.
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post #7 of 103 Old 10-26-2013, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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What I mean is the disc is meant to look normal on a display that has black at 7.5 ire.
So on a normal monitor, what was supposed to be black and below black is medium gray.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #8 of 103 Old 10-26-2013, 06:42 PM
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I know exactly what you're talking about. Haven't run into too many that exhibit this problem, but I have a unique perspective on one of them! I was the cinematographer on a Mario Van Peebles movie called "All Things Fall Apart", starring 50 Cent and Ray Liotta. I supervised the digital color timing at a professional post facility with a top notch colorist, and when I signed off on it, the black levels were at rock bottom (but not crushed). The deliverables left that post facility "correct". Subsequently, the movie aired on BET television with the correct black levels, and is available on all major streaming outlets with the correct black levels...

However, the blu-ray (from Image Entertainment) was somehow authored with incorrect video levels, resulting in a severely "washed out" and "flat" image. From a technical perspective, the "black to white" range is 30-218 instead of the standard video level of 16-235. Thus, there are no real black levels at all during the movie; all black is elevated to "low grey". The entire program is affected, but the clearest evidence (for those analyzing with scopes) is the elevated black during the end credits--which is always indisputably set at "pure black".

Anyhoo... this was very frustrating for me as a DP. Everyone over-estimates the power that a cinematographer has over the final blu-ray product. Fact is, once we sign off on a title in the DI suite, there are a lot of variables that can still screw things up.
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post #9 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 03:27 AM
 
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Ah now i am with you, you are on about the broadcast standard or none HD used for DVD etc when video black should be at 7.5 IRE. I think.

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post #10 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

There's quite a few anime releases like this, the ones I know of for sure are Serial Experiments Lain and Black Lagoon (only the US releases from Funimation, the Japanese releases are fine).

Very true.. Ninja Scroll US release suffers this too.. Japanese is fine.
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post #11 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

What I mean is the disc is meant to look normal on a display that has black at 7.5 ire.
So on a normal monitor, what was supposed to be black and below black is medium gray.

Here's a decent link that was the second one that popped up in google when I typed in "IRE 7.5". http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

You can have a incorrect or poorly encoded digital master even if the analog source is "correct". It's all up to the person "turning the knobs". smile.gif

larry

edit: more good info that may help explain what is or could be happening: http://www.avsforum.com/t/494606/go-to-guide-for-source-options/0_50

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post #12 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_breeze View Post

I know exactly what you're talking about. Haven't run into too many that exhibit this problem, but I have a unique perspective on one of them! I was the cinematographer on a Mario Van Peebles movie called "All Things Fall Apart", starring 50 Cent and Ray Liotta. I supervised the digital color timing at a professional post facility with a top notch colorist, and when I signed off on it, the black levels were at rock bottom (but not crushed). The deliverables left that post facility "correct". Subsequently, the movie aired on BET television with the correct black levels, and is available on all major streaming outlets with the correct black levels...

However, the blu-ray (from Image Entertainment) was somehow authored with incorrect video levels, resulting in a severely "washed out" and "flat" image. From a technical perspective, the "black to white" range is 30-218 instead of the standard video level of 16-235. Thus, there are no real black levels at all during the movie; all black is elevated to "low grey". The entire program is affected, but the clearest evidence (for those analyzing with scopes) is the elevated black during the end credits--which is always indisputably set at "pure black".

Anyhoo... this was very frustrating for me as a DP. Everyone over-estimates the power that a cinematographer has over the final blu-ray product. Fact is, once we sign off on a title in the DI suite, there are a lot of variables that can still screw things up.
Sounds like a wrong assumption was made somewhere along the line and they did a conversion from PC -> studio or vice versa. Maybe more than once.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #13 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 09:56 AM
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7.5 IRE setup is for analog NTSC video only, and only in North America. Japanese NTSC, and PAL, had black at 0 IRE.

Unless the BD you're watching is sourced from an SD upconvert, setup/pedestal isn't the issue. Like Larry says, it's probably a video/PC levels error.

I've also got a lot of masters from Japan that have black level set very high, which we've corrected before encoding. I have no idea what's going on over there but it seems their technical standards aren't as strict as Western post facilities.

David Mackenzie
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post #14 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 10:18 AM
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The Arrival” on Blu-ray has the pedestal (black level) set too high. IIRC, the DVD did not have this problem.
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post #15 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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finally realized why the THX Panasonic TV's have a black level light/dark setting now.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #16 of 103 Old 10-27-2013, 01:22 PM
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Risky Business definitely seems to have incorrect black levels (boosted).

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post #17 of 103 Old 10-28-2013, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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That's not what the issue described here.

More accurately it is PC levels.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #18 of 103 Old 10-28-2013, 09:54 AM
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In the Shadow of the Moon seems to have this problem - lots of greyish blacks especially during the talking heads scenes.

Setting the black level on the display to "normal" (7.5 IRE) instead of the usual "expanded" (0 IRE) clears up the problem - this is the same solution I use for viewing DVDs.
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post #19 of 103 Old 10-28-2013, 04:53 PM
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I believe Margin Call has this problem.
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post #20 of 103 Old 10-28-2013, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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yes, and sadly when I saw it theatrically it was like that. So it isn't just the Blu Ray encode but the DI as well.
Very sad.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #21 of 103 Old 10-28-2013, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

7.5 IRE setup is for analog NTSC video only, and only in North America. Japanese NTSC, and PAL, had black at 0 IRE.

Unless the BD you're watching is sourced from an SD upconvert, setup/pedestal isn't the issue. Like Larry says, it's probably a video/PC levels error.

I've also got a lot of masters from Japan that have black level set very high, which we've corrected before encoding. I have no idea what's going on over there but it seems their technical standards aren't as strict as Western post facilities.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're purposefully messing them up to make overseas releases inferior to their own more expensive domestic Japanese releases, as those are almost always fine.
I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people still mistakenly think that they have to compensate for the IRE difference between NTSC and NTSC-J.
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post #22 of 103 Old 10-29-2013, 02:37 PM
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The European releases of The Howling and Flash Gordon suffer from this, as well. As does the Canadian Oss 117 Rio Ne Repond Plus.

Don't tug on that, you never know what it might be attached to...
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post #23 of 103 Old 10-30-2013, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

7.5 IRE setup is for analog NTSC video only, and only in North America. Japanese NTSC, and PAL, had black at 0 IRE.

Unless the BD you're watching is sourced from an SD upconvert, setup/pedestal isn't the issue. Like Larry says, it's probably a video/PC levels error.

I've also got a lot of masters from Japan that have black level set very high, which we've corrected before encoding. I have no idea what's going on over there but it seems their technical standards aren't as strict as Western post facilities.
It's incredibly common on Japanese anime releases distributed by American companies, who often license the HDCAM SR broadcast masters for their own BD release. I see messed up IRE levels on anime Blu-rays all the time. I think some of the people handling the masters often miss the needed IRE adjustment.
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post #24 of 103 Old 11-02-2013, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Is everyone else's copy of Double Impact encoded with PC Levels or just mine?
Caps A Holic's has it looking fine, but the uploader could have corrected the flaw when he uploaded it.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #25 of 103 Old 11-02-2013, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Is everyone else's copy of Double Impact encoded with PC Levels or just mine?
Caps A Holic's has it looking fine, but the uploader could have corrected the flaw when he uploaded it.
Yeah, mine was effed up too. Shame, because aside from that, it's not a bad transfer.
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post #26 of 103 Old 11-02-2013, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, at least we all know hot to mitigate it now.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #27 of 103 Old 11-02-2013, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Stranger View Post

It's incredibly common on Japanese anime releases distributed by American companies, who often license the HDCAM SR broadcast masters for their own BD release. I see messed up IRE levels on anime Blu-rays all the time. I think some of the people handling the masters often miss the needed IRE adjustment.

It wouldn't be an IRE adjustment - setup/pedestal was a peculiarity of American analog NTSC only.

It'll be some other bizarre reason. Language barriers permit me finding out exactly what it is at present. If I'm ever over there I need to knock on some doors!

David Mackenzie
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post #28 of 103 Old 11-04-2013, 01:11 AM
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What about Frankenstein's Army? Does anyone know if it looked this way theatrically?

HD DVD [R.I.P. 02/19/08] :(
Blu-Ray: 900+

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post #29 of 103 Old 11-06-2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I'm making a list for titles sent to market with RGB PC Levels as opposed to RGB Video Level standard. This results in blacks never dipping below medium gray.
Unless I am misunderstanding the descriptions, it seems as if the opposite direction is happening; rather than the 16-235 video levels, you are seeing something narrower, not the wider 0-255 range of PC RGB. The original Blu-ray release of Dirty Dancing is supposedly encoded with PC RGB levels (0-255), making its black really "blacker than black" on any equipment that is not reset/adjusted to handle it (if possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_breeze View Post

However, the blu-ray (from Image Entertainment) was somehow authored with incorrect video levels, resulting in a severely "washed out" and "flat" image. From a technical perspective, the "black to white" range is 30-218 instead of the standard video level of 16-235.
This "double-reduction" of range sounds more like what Fanboyz is describing.

The mixup or confusion of PC-versus-video RGB levels with 7.5 IRE setup is easy to understand, especially since a black level of 16 is near 7.5% higher than a black level of 0.

Chris

"It's [expletive] lame to watch Jaws, a film that uses the 2.40 ratio as well as any ever produced, in the wrong format on HBO." -Steven Soderbergh, Oscar-winning director

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post #30 of 103 Old 11-11-2013, 10:31 PM
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Can anyone explain how Coppola is able to recreate those blacker than black levels for his movies within the realm of 16-235?
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