Transfer error: what's this called and what's causing it? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 11-06-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a couple of transfers which are having the problem that the picture "jumps" at the beginning and/or end of each scene. The whole picture jumps up or down a bit (never sideways) which is very annoying. I've seen different transfers of the movies which do not suffer from this same error.
My question is, is there a name for this problem and what's causing it?
It's not telecine wobble because it only lasts for a fraction of a second and always at the end and/or beginning of a scene change.

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post #2 of 13 Old 11-06-2013, 10:10 PM
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Are these store purchased, studio pressed Blu-ray movies - or are you talking about burned discs you make yourself? Maybe I'm misinterpreting the word "transfers".

Can't say I have an answer, I'm just asking questions to get more info in case myself or others can then better help or give suggestions.

Since your location says The Dutch Mountains, any chance it could be related to NTSC vs PAL discs (knowing some players can play both, but have to do some type of on-the-fly "conversion" to display in your location's default format).

If its related to trying to change the 24 frames per second to your local display refresh, that I could see being an issue at the beginning/end of scenes. Maybe just changing around the output from 50/60hz to 24hz would clear it up?

Since you mentioned you've seen different transfers of the same movies, could you give a specific example of a movie and which versions are good and which causes problems? Maybe the specs of the different versions will point to a difference?

And lastly, knowing which player you use and which television, type of connection (HDMI vs component) may also help someone chime in with ideas.

Mike
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post #3 of 13 Old 11-07-2013, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply Mike
I'm talking about orignal Blu-rays and the problem is not NTSC/PAL related.
With '"transfer" I mean the way the 35mm film was digitized (but perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology?).
The most recent example is the South Korean movie A Tale Of Two Sisters.
The DVD was great, no problems with scene changes. Then came the UK Blu-ray which badly suffered from this problem. And now there's the Korean Blu-ray which still has the same problem albeit less obvious than with the UK version. I've been talking to many people about this and everyone's complaining about it.
It's like when you're sitting in an analog theater (quite hard to find these days) and you can see where the operator has pasted two parts of film together but they don't line up too well. The picture jumps up or down for a brief moment.
I'm sorry I'm not listing the specs of my equipment here but that's because I'm 100% certain this is on the disc itself and doesn't have anything to do with equipment.

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post #4 of 13 Old 11-07-2013, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nisei View Post

It's like when you're sitting in an analog theater (quite hard to find these days) and you can see where the operator has pasted two parts of film together but they don't line up too well. The picture jumps up or down for a brief moment.
Maybe that's what it is? Could be the ones the don't have it edit out the bad frame (or they could fix it digitally eg. by repositioning it but I doubt they'd do that for these) or scan some other version (eg. original negatives instead?)?
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post #5 of 13 Old 11-07-2013, 07:10 AM
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Well if it's not a mastering error then it sounds to me like your player might be on AUTO wrt cadence detection. You should try another setting e.g. FILM or VIDEO or what-have-yours.
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post #6 of 13 Old 11-07-2013, 09:15 AM
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I've seen something like this before, but it may not be exactly what you're seeing. In a film where there's a fade effect or some other visual effect where multiple images were manually composited over one another, sometimes the frames don't exactly align with the adjacent non-composited frames. This results in an image that jumps a little at the beginning and end of the compositing effect.

Theatrically, this jumpiness was present but hidden in the gate weave of analog projection. But when the Blu-ray was created, the frames were stabilized and the jumpiness now stands out like a sore thumb.

The only way to fix it would have been to rescan the individual elements and recomposite them in a way that aligned better with the adjacent frames. In some cases, this was either impossible or otherwise prohibitive. The film I saw it in was an otherwise very good transfer of a Hong Kong film--perhaps rescanning and recompositing is only feasible/typical for Hollywood films?
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post #7 of 13 Old 11-08-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nisei View Post

I have a couple of transfers which are having the problem that the picture "jumps" at the beginning and/or end of each scene. The whole picture jumps up or down a bit (never sideways) which is very annoying. I've seen different transfers of the movies which do not suffer from this same error.
My question is, is there a name for this problem and what's causing it?
It's not telecine wobble because it only lasts for a fraction of a second and always at the end and/or beginning of a scene change.
I would strongly guess this is tied to the source of the Hi-Def film transfer used for differing releases. It sounds like an improper conversion of film cadence rates. Some European distributors for Blu-ray will simply license the 1080i / 25 Hz HD broadcast master and occasionally will incorrectly convert it to 1080P video. Proper deinterlacing is required but I've seen a lot of improper jobs.


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post #8 of 13 Old 11-09-2013, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nisei View Post

I have a couple of transfers which are having the problem that the picture "jumps" at the beginning and/or end of each scene. The whole picture jumps up or down a bit (never sideways) which is very annoying. I've seen different transfers of the movies which do not suffer from this same error.
My question is, is there a name for this problem and what's causing it?
It's not telecine wobble because it only lasts for a fraction of a second and always at the end and/or beginning of a scene change.

Hi Nisei,

It could actually be considered a form of telecine judder. The films you're watching are probably scans of the original camera negatives, where the edits are pasted together. That friction can cause the film to jump in the telecine/scanner. If what you're watching was transferred using a line-at-a-time process (instead of a full-frame scan) then you might even see weird vertical distortions which only occupy an area of the picture.

That's my best guess. Even if what you're watching is not from the OCN, the jumps could be "printed in" to whatever element was used.
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post #9 of 13 Old 11-09-2013, 06:42 PM
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Might be helpful if you could give us an example, or if there's something out there on YouTube somewhere that demonstrates the same effect you're seeing on your system.

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post #10 of 13 Old 11-10-2013, 02:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses.
I've been watching a few scene changes in slow motion and lyris' explanation is probably right.
Watching it in slow motion shows a weavy wobble (ain't that professional terminology? wink.gif) going through the picture.
I'll see if I can capture a few slow motion examples and put them on youtube.

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post #11 of 13 Old 11-10-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, here's an example on youtube: click
I also see movement sideways now and it's probaly telecine judder. Too bad the didn't cut out these frames.

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post #12 of 13 Old 11-11-2013, 09:59 AM
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Most of the DVD's for John Woo's A BETTER TOMORROW have this. The incredibly gorgeous THE GOOD, THE BAD & THE UGLY transfer from Europe is ruined by it. It all has to do with the element used for the transfer and how it moves through the gate. It's something that can be avoided or fixed, but that takes time and time = money.
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post #13 of 13 Old 11-11-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Too bad. The cheapest way would probably be to cut out a few frames at the end and beginning of each scene. Not something most movie affiniados would be keen on but I'd find it far less annoying than having to watch those jumpy scene changes frown.gif

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