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post #241 of 264 Old 03-31-2014, 01:57 PM
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Yeah but I like watching Wizard of Oz in both Black and White AND color so there.
Its all wrong if you don't sync Wizard of Oz and Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon..
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post #242 of 264 Old 04-01-2014, 10:02 AM
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I don't let my dog in the HT either (and little kids in my HT make me a nervous wreck!), but more for his own comfort/protection since reference level is WAY to loud for him I would think.


I set up the viewing in my HT and no one touches anything except me. My wife only handles the remote for the audio if she's in there without me. I start up everything and shut down everything. The HT is only for movie watching, no TV.

I want my HT to last and my family understands that. The Mit 65 incher in the den is plenty enough for the grandkids and everyone else.
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post #243 of 264 Old 04-01-2014, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I look at it simply. If it is something that negligence wouldn't hurt much(either them or things) they are welcome to use it on their own. My theater is too complex and expensive so I let my teenagers go in with a friend or two or their girl but not a ton of kids. One time one shook up a coke and sprayed it all over the room. Never could get it out who it was. I repainted the ceiling four times to get it look like it did. If it had been the Stewart screen !

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My theater is very complex as well (as you know). That said, Like you, I let my my teens use it. I've mellowed in age and am OK with the risks of teens in a complex, expensive space. Frankly, I got tired of arguing. However, the remote program is idiot proof and a single button press will turn on the entire system,. They can even engage the anamorphic lens and open the masks for scope films with a single button press if they see black bars, The processor is set up with max output limit so they can crank it up as far as they want without me worrying about anything blowing up. One button press shuts down the whole theater (20 commands). The only spills in the theater are mine.. Always red wine - but that's why my carpet is 'wine' colored.wink.gif

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post #244 of 264 Old 04-04-2014, 12:56 PM
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Just found this deleted scene from Gravity that wasn't shown in theaters or on Blu-Ray! (Beware, the end is very difficult to watch eek.gif).







Ian biggrin.gif

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post #245 of 264 Old 04-04-2014, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Just found this deleted scene from Gravity that wasn't shown in theaters or on Blu-Ray! (Beware, the end is very difficult to watch eek.gif).







Ian biggrin.gif

Very funny!
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post #246 of 264 Old 04-26-2014, 08:14 PM
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I'm sure I'll open myself to a real scorching for this tongue.gif, but I think this film's PQ and impact was doomed in it's creation. They really missed a great opportunity.

How have we become accustomed to watching images from space in our modern world? Video ... probably HD. That's because we see news or IMAX shot from space. We all know that we react differently to video and film. Film (including modern digital cinema cameras) has a "once upon a time" quality to it. Video has a sense of immediacy because of news and sports. This story needed immediacy! It needed an "OMG, this s*** is really going down right now!" feeling about it. You get that in two ways in feature production: 4K capture and rendering and/or HFR. I saw this in a state of the art Dolby Atmos theater. I was blown away by the Atmos mix, but underwhelmed by the images. We are all used to much more detail from space. As I watched this in the cinema, I couldn't help but be distracted by the lack of detail and immediacy.

That said, I bought the recent Amazon 2D/3D bundle deal. I don't even have 3D yet. But it will come. I will be watching with frame interpolation cranked up a bit to try to impart some HFR feel.

BTW, Dolby Atmos is coming home, and sooner than we might have thought. wink.gifsmile.gif
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post #247 of 264 Old 04-26-2014, 08:21 PM
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Very funny!

Flippin' hilarious! Well done!
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post #248 of 264 Old 04-26-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Dolby Atmos is coming home, and sooner than we might have thought.
Seems to be the worst kept secret in the industry.

Sanjay
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post #249 of 264 Old 04-26-2014, 09:20 PM
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Seems to be the worst kept secret in the industry.

Of course, we've probably jinxed it. Murphy's Law will probably reign, and we will all be found waiting longer than expected. rolleyes.gif
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post #250 of 264 Old 04-27-2014, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I'm sure I'll open myself to a real scorching for this tongue.gif, but I think this film's PQ and impact was doomed in it's creation. They really missed a great opportunity.

How have we become accustomed to watching images from space in our modern world? Video ... probably HD. That's because we see news or IMAX shot from space. We all know that we react differently to video and film. Film (including modern digital cinema cameras) has a "once upon a time" quality to it. Video has a sense of immediacy because of news and sports. This story needed immediacy! It needed an "OMG, this s*** is really going down right now!" feeling about it. You get that in two ways in feature production: 4K capture and rendering and/or HFR. I saw this in a state of the art Dolby Atmos theater. I was blown away by the Atmos mix, but underwhelmed by the images. We are all used to much more detail from space. As I watched this in the cinema, I couldn't help but be distracted by the lack of detail and immediacy.

That said, I bought the recent Amazon 2D/3D bundle deal. I don't even have 3D yet. But it will come. I will be watching with frame interpolation cranked up a bit to try to impart some HFR feel.

BTW, Dolby Atmos is coming home, and sooner than we might have thought. wink.gifsmile.gif

Funny you say that. For very similar reasons, Gravity is one of the few films I turn my CMD (frame interpolation) on, which does give it that immediacy, "thereness" and clarity.
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post #251 of 264 Old 04-28-2014, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Funny you say that. For very similar reasons, Gravity is one of the few films I turn my CMD (frame interpolation) on, which does give it that immediacy, "thereness" and clarity.

Hey Rich. I'm not surprised you would be on this. Does it work?
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post #252 of 264 Old 04-28-2014, 09:54 AM
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I thought Gravity looked a lot softer in cinemas than it did at home. Most 3D films look softer in the cinema for some reason. I thought it was MUCH cleaner and sharper on Blu-ray so I would give it another shot and see what you think.

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post #253 of 264 Old 04-28-2014, 04:47 PM
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Flippin' hilarious! Well done!

Indeed. Even with the comical Gene Hackman Hawaii music.
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post #254 of 264 Old 04-28-2014, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I thought Gravity looked a lot softer in cinemas than it did at home. Most 3D films look softer in the cinema for some reason. I thought it was MUCH cleaner and sharper on Blu-ray so I would give it another shot and see what you think.

Agreed, but less often than it used to with many films, thanks to projection mechanically induced artifacts. One thing I love about digital cinema projection is the disappearance of gate weave.

Wilco. smile.gif
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post #255 of 264 Old 04-29-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Hey Rich. I'm not surprised you would be on this. Does it work?

It worked pretty well. My RS57's "Low" mode for frame interpolation is pretty subtle but definitely makes motion even smoother.
I also, though, like the filmic look with frame interpolation off. It's that same type of trade-off that much of frame interpolation has, along
with HFR, where "more realistic" does not equate to "more believable." I think pushing the frame interpolation too high on most displays
will tend to give the "cheap effect" and can also make special effects look worse (with an artificial sense of separation of images, exactly
gong against what the FX artists work to achieve).
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post #256 of 264 Old 04-29-2014, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

It worked pretty well. My RS57's "Low" mode for frame interpolation is pretty subtle but definitely makes motion even smoother.
I also, though, like the filmic look with frame interpolation off. It's that same type of trade-off that much of frame interpolation has, along
with HFR, where "more realistic" does not equate to "more believable." I think pushing the frame interpolation too high on most displays
will tend to give the "cheap effect" and can also make special effects look worse (with an artificial sense of separation of images, exactly
gong against what the FX artists work to achieve).

I meant specifically for Gravity, as it is kind of a special case.
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post #257 of 264 Old 04-29-2014, 06:57 AM
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Yes, that's what I meant: I feel mostly the same issues, the same trade-offs, tend to arise when I try pushing frame interpolation too high for gravity. It looks most coherent and believable at film-rate, but a but more real and "now"
with frame interpolation. I like both, but I think I enjoy the added touch of realism of frame interpolation on low probably for reasons you stated in your earlier post. I'd like to think that if Gravity had been shot in HFR the FX would
have been integrated properly for that frame rate. Except that's not a given, as many complained about The Hobbit movies that the CGI tended to look more fake and less integrated into the image than the shot on film LOTR movies.
(And I agree with that, for some scenes in those movies). So I wonder if there's a chance Gravity's FX wouldn't have looked quite as seamless if they tried shooting HFR.
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post #258 of 264 Old 04-29-2014, 10:43 AM
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When I saw the first Hobbit movie in HFR I thought EVERYTHING looked more fake and less integrated. The entire opening sequence in the town outside the mines looked like a bad play set and something akin to a movie of the week for a cheap network than a big budget production like The Hobbit. When I watched the film at home on Blu-ray it looked far better. I think the CGI as a whole in The Hobbit movies isn't nearly as good as most of the better CGI in theaters today. I felt the same way about LOTR. It looks good, but not nearly as good as the best stuff out there. I thought they did a good job with Smaug but there is also so much that looks lazy, like the barrel sequence. It looks nearly video game bad. This is a lot of the reason why I am still so impressed with Avatar. It is amazing how well that movie still looks given how much CGI is on screen. Some chinks are starting to show now but it still stands up amazingly well.
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post #259 of 264 Old 04-29-2014, 06:03 PM
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I find that motion interpolation can sometimes work very well with digitally shot shows. There are two modes on my Sony TV (Smooth and Standard) which ruin any sense of film-like motion, but there's a mode called Clear which uses a mix of mild interpolation and backlight blinking. It works great with the Hobbit movies on 2D Blu-ray, adding a genuine sense of extra smoothness without the dreaded soap opera effect, and it doubles up the motion resolution from 300 lines to about 600, so it looks sharper too.

But most films still have a strange cadence to the movement even with this Clear mode, which got me wondering why some look good and some don't. I've always wondered whether it had anything to do with the shutter angle as shot, perhaps Cam Man can confirm or shoot me down in flames? AFAIK Hobbit was shot with a 270 degree shutter, keeping that sucker open for a long time (comparatively) and perhaps the extra motion blur gives the TV something extra to 'hang on' to, so that the processing doesn't have to work so hard to create the interpolated frames, which means less artefacts. Mann's Miami Vice also has a very 'video' like appearance re: the motion blur, and it also works brilliantly with the Clear mode on my TV.
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post #260 of 264 Old 04-29-2014, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

I find that motion interpolation can sometimes work very well with digitally shot shows. There are two modes on my Sony TV (Smooth and Standard) which ruin any sense of film-like motion, but there's a mode called Clear which uses a mix of mild interpolation and backlight blinking. It works great with the Hobbit movies on 2D Blu-ray, adding a genuine sense of extra smoothness without the dreaded soap opera effect, and it doubles up the motion resolution from 300 lines to about 600, so it looks sharper too.

But most films still have a strange cadence to the movement even with this Clear mode, which got me wondering why some look good and some don't. I've always wondered whether it had anything to do with the shutter angle as shot, perhaps Cam Man can confirm or shoot me down in flames? AFAIK Hobbit was shot with a 270 degree shutter, keeping that sucker open for a long time (comparatively) and perhaps the extra motion blur gives the TV something extra to 'hang on' to, so that the processing doesn't have to work so hard to create the interpolated frames, which means less artefacts. Mann's Miami Vice also has a very 'video' like appearance re: the motion blur, and it also works brilliantly with the Clear mode on my TV.

You bring up a good question on the frame rate on The Hobbit ... for which I don't know the answer.

IMO, the reaction/perception of frame interpolation/HFR is almost completely affected by our subconscious perception of the appropriateness of the technology we see on the screen (HFR/FI) to the subject matter. The Hobbit movies live in our fantasy dreams. HFR breaks that suspension of reality when our psyche has prepared us (our expectations) for some time in the fantasy genre.

We have all been conditioned to this all our lives watching (immediate/live) TV/video with its frame rates and linear gamma response, and (once upon a time) movies on film with its frame rates and non-linear gamma response. Digital cinema is beginning to blend the two. Highly effective in our acceptance of video "as film" are capture technology treatments such as Sony s-log to make video see light like film.

It's all rather fascinating. A fun time. smile.gif
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post #261 of 264 Old 04-30-2014, 10:25 AM
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I don't have a problem with my mind's interpretation of HFR/FI per se (I mentioned the Clear setting on my TV works just as well with Miami Vice as it does for The Hobbit) it's the horrid implementation of FI on most TVs that I have a beef with. For some reason, using Clear with those movies that I've mentioned doesn't result in jerky staccato motion or create visible artefacts, and I'm puzzled as to why they work so well and other movies don't. It can't be a coincidence that they were both shot on digital without any concessions towards creating a traditional film-like 24fps cadence, which is what got me thinking about the shutter angle and the role that motion blur has to play in all this.
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post #262 of 264 Old 05-01-2014, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

I find that motion interpolation can sometimes work very well with digitally shot shows. There are two modes on my Sony TV (Smooth and Standard) which ruin any sense of film-like motion, but there's a mode called Clear which uses a mix of mild interpolation and backlight blinking. It works great with the Hobbit movies on 2D Blu-ray, adding a genuine sense of extra smoothness without the dreaded soap opera effect, and it doubles up the motion resolution from 300 lines to about 600, so it looks sharper too.

But most films still have a strange cadence to the movement even with this Clear mode, which got me wondering why some look good and some don't. I've always wondered whether it had anything to do with the shutter angle as shot, perhaps Cam Man can confirm or shoot me down in flames? AFAIK Hobbit was shot with a 270 degree shutter, keeping that sucker open for a long time (comparatively) and perhaps the extra motion blur gives the TV something extra to 'hang on' to,
The Hobbit films were shot with a 270 degree shutter but at around 48 fps. So the shutter open time on a frame of that would be less than a frame of a normal 24 fps film with a 180 degree shutter.

eg.
1/((270/360)*(1/48))=64 (ie. 1/64th of a second).
1/((180/360)*(1/24))=48 (ie. 1/48th of a second)
So shutter open time on a frame of the 48 fps hobbit would be 1/64th of a second, which is less time (less blur) than on a frame of a standard 180 degree shutter, 24 fps film (1/48th of second).

They say they created the 24 fps version of the film by just using every other frame. If true, this means each frame of the 24 fps version also has 1/64th of a second of shutter time (less motion blur than a normal 24 fps film) - though Peter Jackson did say he used post production filters on the 2nd Hobbit (that would blur it - but not motion blur ones).
See:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/storage/article_pdfs/framegame_def64.pdf
According to the Hobbit editor Jabez Olssen:
"converting 48fps to 24fps was done simply by discarding every other frame... Many frame blending tests were done with different systems, but we tended to like the results we got from simply discarding every other frame"
Quote:
so that the processing doesn't have to work so hard to create the interpolated frames, which means less artefacts. Mann's Miami Vice also has a very 'video' like appearance re: the motion blur, and it also works brilliantly with the Clear mode on my TV.
I've read that Miami Vice also used 270 degree shutter - at least some of it. So unlike the Hobbit films would have a longer blur than standard films (ie. 1/32 of a second).
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post #263 of 264 Old 05-02-2014, 04:18 AM
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Thanks for that. I did think that the 48fps frame rate would affect the shutter relative to a 24fps show, but I'm nowhere near smart enough to figure out the numbers. So I just ran with it. biggrin.gif

The funny thing is, if Hobbit in 24fps does have less motion blur than a regular 24fps show (I've read several comments online from folks who've said that it's still got a funny look to the motion) then perhaps that works in the favour of the frame interpolation on my TV too? It's giving the processing a fraction more temporal information to chew on, so it produces a cleaner image. And yet the reverse might also be true of Miami Vice, i.e. there's less information and more video-like blur so that the processing isn't being taxed too much.

But genuine 24fps material shot with a 180 degree shutter (either film or digital) viewed in the same FI mode still produces that ersatz look to the motion and visible artefacts.
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post #264 of 264 Old 11-13-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Gravity Blu-ray
Diamond Luxe Edition

The new edition features a Dolby Atmos audio track
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