Avengers: Age of Ultron Blu-ray - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 02:21 PM
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Perhaps! I'll get back to you later, heading out.
shoot me a PM and lets see what we can come up with
Sounds good man! I will PM you in a bit when I get home from the grind.
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post #332 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 05:20 PM
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To my amazingly delightful surprise, I see there are still others in this thread who can lay claim to a working set of ears...

I couldn't agree with you more, saber.

You wanna hear a REAL knockout, uber-aggressive and downright wall-rocking audio track that BLOWS Age of Ultron not only out of the proverbial water but into another universe? Check out Terminator Genisys -- WOW. The wife and I rented this last night (the film itself was better than I though it would be) and even running the Atmos mix's core TrueHD 7.1 track, this disc was a STUNNER. In fact, I am going so far as to call it the de-facto demo disc as of the moment with regard to audio (it's also firming up my arguments for why, almost always, TrueHD just comes across BETTER for whatever reason than DTS-HD Master Audio). From a wickedly high mastering level (the OPPOSITE of what we got with Age of Ultron) to WALLOPS of wall-breaking LFE (at lower master volume levels, to boot!) and aggressive panning the likes of which I haven't experienced in a long time, the new Terminator sounded better than any of the more recent tentpole Blu-rays I purchased including Jurassic World, Furious 7 and, of course, Age of Ultron.

The film sounded AMAZING...and THIS is the way ALL discs should be mastered and sound (especially those of the action/blockbuster genre).
I'm looking forward to picking up terminator. Just waiting for a sale.
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post #333 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 05:27 PM
 
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I'm looking forward to picking up terminator. Just waiting for a sale.

Did you see it yet? We didn't catch it theatrically, but the rental was more than we expected...after the last one, with the horribly mis-cast Christian Bale, I was expecting this franchise to be on its proverbial last leg...while some of the story is clichéd and tired at this point, Genisys actually had many borrowed elements from what is arguably the best film in the series, Rise of the Machines, as well as from Judgment Day, and it turned out to be quite entertaining, especially towards the end when Arnold's model terminator battles Jason Clarke's John Connor/Skynet artificial intelligence entity. Awesome hand-to-hand combat action in that sequence.


I am considering picking this up if we can find it "cheapish" somewhere...


The audio, however, was a real blast...I'm telling you...SO much better than Age of Ultron and even other newer releases (such as the ones we've been discussing). Even the core TrueHD track was rousing and aggressive enough to warrant putting crying over the lack of an Atmos setup on the shelf for awhile...
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post #334 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 05:34 PM
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Finally saw Ultron and it was ...meh. Weak story line and quite frankly, I'm getting tired of the characters. Sound was fantastic...you have to pump up the volume to get the great impact.
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post #335 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 05:45 PM
 
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Finally saw Ultron and it was ...meh. Weak story line and quite frankly, I'm getting tired of the characters.

I'm beginning to feel that way too, v; while I was once so excited and enthralled by these comic adaptation films, they're starting to lose their impact...like we're just in character overload already and it's too much. I am kind of looking forward to the next Captain America, which is supposed to be based on the popular Civil War run of the comics and which pits Steve against Tony Stark, but all these films in the Marvel universe are just beginning to get blurry already. Captain America: Civil War, from what I read, is shaping up to be a mini-Avengers with a ton of characters involved on both teams (they're even introducing Tom Holland's take on Spider-Man, who will join this "New Avengers" team), which begs the question...what is Avengers: Infinity War Part One going to be like?


As for Age of Ultron, I said to my wife not five minutes into the opening sequence when we saw it in theaters that it was already "nothing like the first one" and that it was going to have plot pacing issues (and other problems); alas, the whole thing felt too rushed and thick in many places, and Spader's Ultron wasn't nearly the frightening enemy they made him out to be in the trailers, in my opinion. It was far from the worst comic adaptation ever made (perhaps we should leave that to the 1980s takes on Fantastic Four and Captain America?) but it surely wasn't what fans were expecting, I reckon.


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you have to pump up the volume to get the great impact.

...and therein lies the PROBLEM many of us have been talking about in this thread. You want to hear a lossless track done RIGHT? As I said, sample the new Terminator and its wickedly delicious Dolby TrueHD (or Atmos, if you're set up for it) mix...
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post #336 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 05:47 PM
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Sound was fantastic...you have to pump up the volume to get the great impact.
Yep!
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post #337 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 08:27 PM
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Finally saw Ultron and it was ...meh. Weak story line and quite frankly, I'm getting tired of the characters.
I got my money's worth which was a free pass. I do not look forward to Thanos being ruined.

Wouldn't bug me except those claiming it was 'great', not sure they saw the same flick...
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post #338 of 418 Old 11-11-2015, 09:43 PM
 
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I got my money's worth which was a free pass. I do not look forward to Thanos being ruined.

Why do you feel Thanos is going to be ruined? Asking out of sheer curiosity...


Do you think there's going to be a mishandling of sorts with regard to the infinity stones and the "glove"?

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Wouldn't bug me except those claiming it was 'great', not sure they saw the same flick...

Yeah; I said the same thing to the Missus when we heard about all the commentary lavished on this film i.e. "The absolute best superhero adventure to ever come along...." and "Wow! So much better than the first Avengers!" and...well...you get the picture...

From what I understand, Whedon was absolutely medically exhausted from shooting this film, and it's almost as if it shows in many places. Now, I am not pretending to know what goes into making a massive blockbuster like this, at all (and, truth be told, I'd probably collapse from exhaustion in the middle of filming a scene myself), I'm just saying that it seemed like much of the production elements were "rushed" and kind of rammed down our throats, as if you could "feel" the scheduling conflicts and deadlines between each sequence. The opening scene is a great example of this -- I said it before, and I will continue to hold to it: After the end of the events of the first film, when they made such a big deal about the team getting back together after going their separate ways, Whedon opens the sequel up with all of them back together...and on a SCHEDULED mission? Really? And Banner, we're lead to assume, just "changed" for the benefit of this raid on the Hydra lair? I don't buy it, even if we have to suspend disbelief. Another big problem was Ultron's "relationship" with the Maximoff twins; they're suddenly on a mission to kill the Avengers too, merely because Quicksilver claims Stark's weapons wiped his village out, and they just happen to stumble onto Ultron sitting on that throne in the abandoned church?


I could go on and on, but this film wasn't nearly as magical, magnetizing or awe-inspiring as the first. Someone in either this thread or another had mentioned "totally zoning out" during the fight sequences -- almost unheard of for a good comic adaptation film -- and I'm forced to agree; there was often so much going on during these battle sequences it was difficult to follow. This becomes clear when the team takes on Ultron and the twins off the African coast -- Whedon set this up very effectively, what with Ultron talking about "not wanting to be compared to Stark" and then Tony flying in and saying "Junior...you're gonna break your old man's heart" and Ultron responding with "If I have to..." But then when Ultron attacks Stark after Stark asks about his vibranium, things just get so chaotic with the twins attacking Cap and Thor and Ultron taking on Tony, I didn't know what was happening.


This issue was only exaggerated tenfold when watching the film on a smaller screen (i.e. at home), as the action became seriously "cramped" and even more difficult to follow.


My hope is that Captain America: Civil War is entertaining (it should be, because The Winter Soldier is still one of the best films in the Marvel universe) and that we get some better vibes when the third Avengers arrives...
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post #339 of 418 Old 11-12-2015, 06:14 PM
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Why do you feel Thanos is going to be ruined? Asking out of sheer curiosity...


Do you think there's going to be a mishandling of sorts with regard to the infinity stones and the "glove"?
I fear Thanos's minions will be easily laid waste too like the Ultron minions (not too mention Hydra minions) were and Captain America holding his own going toe to toe with Thanos like with Ultron.

I read Jim Starlin's comics as a kid and Whedon has never made a story as good as a Jim Starlin story, never mind Jim's awesome Warlock infinity stones saga in the 70's.
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post #340 of 418 Old 11-12-2015, 07:17 PM
 
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I fear Thanos's minions will be easily laid waste too like the Ultron minions (not too mention Hydra minions) were and Captain America holding his own going toe to toe with Thanos like with Ultron.

Well, let's be clear here (and I understand your concerns): As I mentioned, Whedon did not utilize the Ultron mythos to any great advantage, and "its" presence wasn't nearly as threatening, intimidating or overwhelming as trailers and pre-hubbub made the character out to be. So I agree that the team was "too easy a match" in many places for this foe. However, that being said, I always think it's cool when we see the heroes standing toe-to-toe with the adversary, as we always seem to do with Cap's character; the fight sequences, to me, are more exciting and we can root for our hero more. Remember in Dark Knight Rises when Bane hands Batman his ass in that first skirmish? The sequence was way cool and effective, yes, but I gotta say...it's real difficult to watch multiple times because I just feel "bad" for the hero character in an almost pathetic way (and that is precisely what Nolan was going for)...like nothing he is doing is making any effect against this foe. I also felt the same way about the exciting final battle sequence between Norman and Peter at the end of Sam Raimi's first Spider-Man -- I mean, Pete got his ass handed to him six ways from Sunday...but I think it's so cool when our hero "rises up" and gets filled with a rage of sorts to come back and take the villain over. I always thought that Nolan should have had Bruce beating Bane's ass in the end fight sequence in Dark Knight Rises in a way almost like he got beaten earlier...ripping off his mask so he can experience pain from a horrendous Batman beating. I didn't care for the way it just sort of ends with Bruce kicking him through that glass door and Bane still not really succumbing to the power of the Bat (and forget about the stupid decision to have Selina come in and finish Bane off with the cycle's cannon).


At any rate, I thought it was cool to see Cap stand up against Ultron in that sequence when they're on the highway and they're fighting atop the truck; I came to appreciate this sequence more watching it at home. From what I understand, Steve is gonna have his hands full with Tony in the next Captain America, though they're supposed to really kick the snot out of one another. An additional element I didn't care for in Age of Ultron was the whole "flying robots taking on the team" thing again...felt too much like the first film with Loki's "borrowed army."

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I read Jim Starlin's comics as a kid and Whedon has never made a story as good as a Jim Starlin story, never mind Jim's awesome Warlock infinity stones saga in the 70's.
You mean (Whedon) has never made as good a story in the two Avengers films he's done so far?
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post #341 of 418 Old 11-12-2015, 09:08 PM
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Saw this a few days ago and my opinion mirrors those of the most recent posts. A significant step below the 1st Avengers and everybody looked like they were going thru the motions including the CGI dept because the CGI was quite poor in the opening scenes.

Too many storylines and characters crammed in. Ultron was the most non threatening and dull comic book villain in recent memory. Reviewers made it seem like he was this charming, laugh a minute antangonist with his one liners but it's only been a few days since watching it and I can't remember one memorable thing he said. He was as forgettable as the plot. Movie just felt like one giant Marvel commercial. And the Hulk/Natasha thing was just so out of place and forced.

The audio wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. Just needed to be turned up quite a bit which is not a big deal, don't quite understand why people get thier shorts in a knot about low recording levels. It wasn't the best soundtrack I've heard but felt engaging enough at times even with the low end lacking somewhat.
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post #342 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 05:06 AM
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Having to turn your receiver WAY up is an indication of a poor mix. I can watch any movie at 0db on my receiver and its ungodly loud. This movie At 0db was like listening to a calm ocean.

I'm not sure why anyone would try to justify the sound with "just turn it up past what should be reference". Sorry that makes no sense.
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post #343 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 05:13 AM
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Having to turn your receiver WAY up is an indication of a poor mix. I can watch any movie at 0db on my receiver and its ungodly loud. This movie At 0db was like listening to a calm ocean.

I'm not sure why anyone would try to justify the sound with "just turn it up past what should be reference". Sorry that makes no sense.
I disagree. Low overall mastering is commonly a good sign that dynamic range has been left intact. I think people are so accustomed to the norm of tracks being mastered so LOUD these days that when a track does come along that has actually kept all the dynamic range intact that they are caught off guard a bit and don't realize that all you need to do is bump your volume a bit. I am not saying Ultron is perfect since it's not, but I firmly believe that most the complaints stem from the fact that people have simply not turned up the volume enough to give it a fair assessment.

Apparently most people in this thread are not into music/concert blu rays? The overall mastering level between concert blu rays can vary wildly! Two extremes I can think of right off the bat are something like The Police Certifiable which is a LOUD compressed mix vs something like my personal favorite reference concert recording Talking Heads Stop Making Sense Studio mix. If you volume match these two shows, there is a good 15-20db difference between them! Once volume matched though, there is no question which one is the better overall audio track and it's not the Police.
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post #344 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 06:27 AM
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I disagree. Low overall mastering is commonly a good sign that dynamic range has been left intact.
I know you're likely referencing the nature of music mixes from yesteryear compared to modern mixes, but this is what is called a non sequitur. Mix volume and dynamic range are two different, quantifiably unrelated factors. You can have a loud mix with little dynamic range or a quiet mix with great dynamic range, or any combination thereof. As it stands, AOU is lacking in both.

I take that back. The dynamic range as a whole - measured as being the difference between the loudest noise and the quietest noise - is actually OK.

The biggest problem with the mix appears to be (sounds like) aggressive EQ roll off of mid-to-high frequency noises. Dialog - which is easily the best part of the entire track - sounds like it has been given priority over all other ranges. I'm guessing that it's intentional. This would explain why some have described the audio track as being like a commentary track. This track is in no danger of being described as "bright" or "sharp". The reason being that things like breaking glass, clanging metal, slaps, gunfire, etc. are all missing something. Those effects still carry LFE where appropriate, but they sound muffled/muted. Again, this is compared to other similar films (GOTG, CA:TWS, Ant-Man, Avengers). Whether it's intentional in order to better prioritize dialog or a mistake in the mixing booth, I don't think it sounds good. AOU is not demo material.
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post #345 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 06:51 AM
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I know you're likely referencing the nature of music mixes from yesteryear compared to modern mixes, but this is what is called a non sequitur. Mix volume and dynamic range are two different, quantifiably unrelated factors. You can have a loud mix with little dynamic range or a quiet mix with great dynamic range, or any combination thereof. As it stands, AOU is lacking in both.

I take that back. The dynamic range as a whole - measured as being the difference between the loudest noise and the quietest noise - is actually OK.

The biggest problem with the mix appears to be (sounds like) aggressive EQ roll off of mid-to-high frequency noises. Dialog - which is easily the best part of the entire track - sounds like it has been given priority over all other ranges. I'm guessing that it's intentional. This would explain why some have described the audio track as being like a commentary track. This track is in no danger of being described as "bright" or "sharp". The reason being that things like breaking glass, clanging metal, slaps, gunfire, etc. are all missing something. Those effects still carry LFE where appropriate, but they sound muffled/muted. Again, this is compared to other similar films (GOTG, CA:TWS, Ant-Man, Avengers). Whether it's intentional in order to better prioritize dialog or a mistake in the mixing booth, I don't think it sounds good. AOU is not demo material.
Although not the first thing I would turn to, the Hulkbuster/Iron man fight was good enough to qualify as demo material for me.

I won't restate my opinion again, but I heard the track differently than what you are describing once the volume was bumped. My biggest complaint was LFE extension was lacking, but the bass otherwise was very good.

Dynamic range is better than "ok" as it has been objectively measured as 5 star if you look on data-bass.

Some of us will never agree on this track though so this argument is pointless. I did finally track down a 3d copy though (big thanks to Audiofan!) so I am happy.
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post #346 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 09:15 AM
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I disagree. Low overall mastering is commonly a good sign that dynamic range has been left intact. I think people are so accustomed to the norm of tracks being mastered so LOUD these days that when a track does come along that has actually kept all the dynamic range intact that they are caught off guard a bit and don't realize that all you need to do is bump your volume a bit.
No soundtrack should need to be turned up past reference 0 dB. That's ridiculous. This one not only needs to be turned up past reference to get any sort of listenable volume, it needs to be turned up considerably past reference.

On most average A/V receivers, cranking up the volume that high strains the limits of the amplifiers and will introduce noise into the audio.

This is a crappy mix no matter how you look at it.
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post #347 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 09:50 AM
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No soundtrack should need to be turned up past reference 0 dB. That's ridiculous. This one not only needs to be turned up past reference to get any sort of listenable volume, it needs to be turned up considerably past reference.

On most average A/V receivers, cranking up the volume that high strains the limits of the amplifiers and will introduce noise into the audio.

This is a crappy mix no matter how you look at it.
Couldn't agree more.
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post #348 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 09:58 AM
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No soundtrack should need to be turned up past reference 0 dB. That's ridiculous. This one not only needs to be turned up past reference to get any sort of listenable volume, it needs to be turned up considerably past reference.

On most average A/V receivers, cranking up the volume that high strains the limits of the amplifiers and will introduce noise into the audio.

This is a crappy mix no matter how you look at it.
I disagree. Not a reference mix, but far from a "crappy" one. Solid 4/5 after a 8-10db volume bump.

Most listeners don't listen anywhere close to reference anyway, so an 8-10db bump over your normal listening level shouldn't be an issue at all. I DO listen at -1 from reference for all first run films and even bumping my gear to +8db caused no issues at all, so I'm not buying this as an issue for most.

Like I said though, pointless to keep arguing this as we will never agree.
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post #349 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 10:05 AM
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I disagree. Low overall mastering is commonly a good sign that dynamic range has been left intact. I think people are so accustomed to the norm of tracks being mastered so LOUD these days that when a track does come along that has actually kept all the dynamic range intact that they are caught off guard a bit and don't realize that all you need to do is bump your volume a bit.


No soundtrack should need to be turned up past reference 0 dB. That's ridiculous. This one not only needs to be turned up past reference to get any sort of listenable volume, it needs to be turned up considerably past reference.

On most average A/V receivers, cranking up the volume that high strains the limits of the amplifiers and will introduce noise into the audio.

This is a crappy mix no matter how you look at it.
I completely agree.


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No soundtrack should need to be turned up past reference 0 dB. That's ridiculous. This one not only needs to be turned up past reference to get any sort of listenable volume, it needs to be turned up considerably past reference.

On most average A/V receivers, cranking up the volume that high strains the limits of the amplifiers and will introduce noise into the audio.

This is a crappy mix no matter how you look at it.
I disagree. Not a reference mix, but far from a "crappy" one. Solid 4/5 after a 8-10db volume bump.

Most listeners don't listen anywhere close to reference anyway, so an 8-10db bump over your normal listening level shouldn't be an issue at all. I DO listen at -1 from reference for all first run films and even bumping my gear to +8db caused no issues at all, so I'm not buying this as an issue for most.

Like I said though, pointless to keep arguing this as we will never agree.
When you say you went 8-10db above references you de facto admit that the mix is poor. You don't have to flat out say so but you are now past where the audio was intended to be played.
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post #350 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 10:14 AM
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I completely agree.




When you say you went 8-10db above references you de facto admit that the mix is poor. You don't have to flat out say so but you are now past where the audio was intended to be played.
Don't put words in my mouth please. I don't consider a 2 second act of twisting a volume knob to equate to a poor mix. Concerts and music need various volume settings to get to the same level vs one another. By your faulty logic, a concert mix that needs to be bumped up a bit higher is a bad mix which is ridiculous.
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post #351 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 10:51 AM
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I didn't put works in your mouth. You said that you had to pump up the volume significantly past reference to get it to sound good. Sorry but that's going past what the mixer intended. Since you listened past reference you disagree or think his vision of the mix is wrong bad otherwise reference would have been plenty.
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post #352 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I DO listen at -1 from reference for all first run films and even bumping my gear to +8db caused no issues at all, so I'm not buying this as an issue for most.
It's nice that you have equipment that can tolerate being played at +8dB without issue, but many (perhaps even most) consumer A/V receivers perform very poorly when cranked that high. That's very close to the maximum possible volume output most receivers refuse to go past, and cranking the volume that high will significantly increase the noise floor.

You can say that it's a good thing to set volume low in order to give a soundtrack a lot of headroom for dynamic range. While that's true in general, it has its limits. Suppressing the volume too low can be just as harmful as setting it too high.

There's a "comfort zone" in the volume range where most movie soundtracks perform best. This one is far outside it.

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post #353 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 11:06 AM
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I know my denon x6200w isn't top of the lines by any stretch but there's no way I'd dare crank it up to +8 to +10 past reference. I'm not that brave. Haha
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post #354 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 11:11 AM
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All I can say at this point is that I won't buy Age O' Da Ultron until it hits the PVM rack at the grocery store for $5 or I end up with a copy in a Marvel boxset.
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post #355 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
It's nice that you have equipment that can tolerate being played at +8dB without issue, but many (perhaps even most) consumer A/V receivers perform very poorly when cranked that high. That's very close to the maximum possible volume output most receivers refuse to go past, and cranking the volume that high will significantly increase the noise floor.

You can say that it's a good thing to set volume low in order to give a soundtrack a lot of headroom for dynamic range. While that's true in general, it has its limits. Suppressing the volume too low can be just as harmful as setting it too high.

There's a "comfort zone" in the volume range where most movie soundtracks perform best. This one is far outside it.
Again, most users listen nowhere close to reference. This track needs an 8-10db bump over your typical listening level, so for the average user who listens at -10, bump AoU up to -2 or 0 which should be easily attainable by the vast majority. +8 was simply where I needed to go since I am usually at -1.

Even at +8, the raised noise floor NEVER was noticed in my system, so this will also be a complete and total non issue for most.

Last edited by Toe; 11-13-2015 at 11:39 AM.
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post #356 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 12:09 PM
 
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I want my money back.
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post #357 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 12:37 PM
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Even at +8, the raised noise floor NEVER was noticed in my system, so this will also be a complete and total non issue for most.
I don't know what you're using for amplification, but I'll assume it's better than the average $500 AVR, which means that it probably has a very low noise floor that can tolerate being jacked way up. The fact that you don't have hiss problems at that volume is irrelevant to what other people will experience when cranking up their AVRs.

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post #358 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 01:37 PM
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I don't know what you're using for amplification, but I'll assume it's better than the average $500 AVR, which means that it probably has a very low noise floor that can tolerate being jacked way up. The fact that you don't have hiss problems at that volume is irrelevant to what other people will experience when cranking up their AVRs.

It's also irrelevant because most users as I mentioned don't listen anywhere near reference. If the average user listens at -10, are you telling me the typical AVR can't be bumped up to -2 or 0 without issue? I find that very hard to believe.

I use a Sherborn 7/2100 combined with an Onkyo 885 preamp. Nice gear, but nothing super special or anything.

Last edited by Toe; 11-13-2015 at 01:43 PM.
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post #359 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 02:14 PM
 
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Saw this a few days ago and my opinion mirrors those of the most recent posts. A significant step below the 1st Avengers and everybody looked like they were going thru the motions including the CGI dept because the CGI was quite poor in the opening scenes.

Too many storylines and characters crammed in. Ultron was the most non threatening and dull comic book villain in recent memory. Reviewers made it seem like he was this charming, laugh a minute antangonist with his one liners but it's only been a few days since watching it and I can't remember one memorable thing he said. He was as forgettable as the plot. Movie just felt like one giant Marvel commercial. And the Hulk/Natasha thing was just so out of place and forced.

I totally agree with these sentiments and observations...

Quote:
The audio wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. Just needed to be turned up quite a bit which is not a big deal, don't quite understand why people get thier shorts in a knot about low recording levels. It wasn't the best soundtrack I've heard but felt engaging enough at times even with the low end lacking somewhat.

...but can't wholeheartedly agree with that.
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post #360 of 418 Old 11-13-2015, 02:15 PM
 
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Having to turn your receiver WAY up is an indication of a poor mix. I can watch any movie at 0db on my receiver and its ungodly loud. This movie At 0db was like listening to a calm ocean.

I'm not sure why anyone would try to justify the sound with "just turn it up past what should be reference". Sorry that makes no sense.

Saber,


There's no possible way I could EVER agree with someone more on this topic -- if I could "like" you 10,000 times on here for this comment, I would.


You are 100-percent spot-on.
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