It's not 4K!!! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Angry It's not 4K!!!

OK,

I need to rant here. With the next generation of resolution, UHD, people are swarming all over this "4K" bandwagon. However, this is a severe misconception.

To keep it simple, DVD is 480p and Blu-Ray is 1080p. These all describe the resolution in the vertical plane, the height of the screen if you will. HD resolution is 1920x1080 pixels.

UHD is twice that at 3840x2160 pixels.

We don't call Blu-Ray 2K, describing the width. So why in the hell are people calling UHD 4K???

It makes no sense...

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post #2 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipervick View Post
OK,

I need to rant here. With the next generation of resolution, UHD, people are swarming all over this "4K" bandwagon. However, this is a severe misconception.

To keep it simple, DVD is 480p and Blu-Ray is 1080p. These all describe the resolution in the vertical plane, the height of the screen if you will. HD resolution is 1920x1080 pixels.

UHD is twice that at 3840x2160 pixels.

We don't call Blu-Ray 2K, describing the width. So why in the hell are people calling UHD 4K???

It makes no sense...
Yes, its the number of lines that makes bluray 2K and UHD 4K from those numbers I bold in RED.

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post #3 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Yes, its the number of lines that makes bluray 2K and UHD 4K from those numbers I bold in RED.
No one has ever called Blu-Ray 2K. It's either Blu-Ray, HD or 1080p.

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post #4 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by vipervick View Post
OK,

I need to rant here. With the next generation of resolution, UHD, people are swarming all over this "4K" bandwagon. However, this is a severe misconception.

To keep it simple, DVD is 480p and Blu-Ray is 1080p. These all describe the resolution in the vertical plane, the height of the screen if you will. HD resolution is 1920x1080 pixels.

UHD is twice that at 3840x2160 pixels.

We don't call Blu-Ray 2K, describing the width. So why in the hell are people calling UHD 4K???

It makes no sense...
The 4K term came from the cinema world where the common parlance was to measure using horizontal resolution (and where their 4K was actually a little over 4,000 pixels wide).

Why it was adopted by the consumer electronics world this time around is anyone's guess. Maybe they thought after going from HD to Full HD that they needed something that sounded a bit different to get peoples' attention for marketing purposes.

I'd have preferred 4XHD as there are 4x the number of pixels compared to FHD, but what can you do, we have what we have.
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post #5 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 08:11 AM
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Been many threads on this topic since UHD was announced. 1920X1080 is often referred to as 2K. It's a generic term for displays or content with a horizontal resolution of about 2,000 pixels or higher. UHD (3840 x 2160) is often referred to as 4K (4096 x 2160).


DCI 2K: 2048 × 1080
DCI 2K (Flat Cropped): 1998 x 1080
DCI 2K (Cinemascope Cropped: 2048 x 858
PC 2K (1080p): 1920 x 1080


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post #6 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 08:24 AM
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We always referred to our dailies as 2k when I worked in television.
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post #7 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 12:30 PM
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I dunno. 4k has two characters. 2160p has five. 4k wins.
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post #8 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 05:15 PM
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I just write UHD BD, no need to put 4k in.
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post #9 of 28 Old 04-17-2017, 09:50 PM
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Heck, you see on spec sheets 4k x 2k output, inputs, display, etc.

It refers to 3840x2160 not both 4k and 1080p.

And yes, 2k is an industry standard term.
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post #10 of 28 Old 04-18-2017, 08:55 AM
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What I want to know is why UHD Bluray discs aren't 200GB...
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post #11 of 28 Old 04-18-2017, 09:24 AM
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I worked with engineers at Sony who had successfully created 6-layer BDs. At 25GB/layer it gets you closer, but not quite 200GB.
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post #12 of 28 Old 04-18-2017, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post
Been many threads on this topic since UHD was announced. 1920X1080 is often referred to as 2K. It's a generic term for displays or content with a horizontal resolution of about 2,000 pixels or higher. UHD (3840 x 2160) is often referred to as 4K (4096 x 2160).


DCI 2K: 2048 × 1080
DCI 2K (Flat Cropped): 1998 x 1080
DCI 2K (Cinemascope Cropped: 2048 x 858
PC 2K (1080p): 1920 x 1080


S~
In PC-land, 2K often refers to 1440p i.e. 2560 x 1440. Should be called 2.5K really, but people are too lazy to type that extra .5

This rant is pretty silly. It's actually true 4K which is the outlier here. Being that 4096 x 2160 resolution is a 17:9 aspect ratio which is completely irrelevant and ludicrous in the consumer market as there is, and will not likely ever be, any content to purchase for that resolution, nor will there ever be any TVs made with a 17:9 AR either. (there are a couple projectors which do that but IMO it's also a waste, because it requires additional scaling which softens the image. So if the point is to have higher resolution, it's completely worthless, at least for movies and shows).

Also, 4K isn't four thousand, 4000. It's 4096. So even the term 4K applied to 4096, from a pedantic perspective, an incorrectly named acronym.

In other words, /thread

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post #13 of 28 Old 04-18-2017, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
In PC-land, 2K often refers to 1440p i.e. 2560 x 1440. Should be called 2.5K really, but people are too lazy to type that extra .5

This rant is pretty silly. It's actually true 4K which is the outlier here. Being that 4096 x 2160 resolution is a 17:9 aspect ratio which is completely irrelevant and ludicrous in the consumer market as there is, and will not likely ever be, any content to purchase for that resolution.

Also, 4K isn't four thousand, 4000. It's 4096. So even the term 4K applied to 4096, from a pedantic perspective, an incorrectly named acronym.

In other words, /thread
As I said:


1. There have been many threads on this topic.
2. These are generic terms that have been adopted/used in the industry. While true 4K is 4096 x 2160, the "generic" definition is horizontal resolution of about 4,000 pixels or higher.
3. My focus was that Blu-ray wasn't referred to as 2k. It is used quite often in the industry for 1920 x1080.


I always use UHD when referring to UHD Blu-ray.

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post #14 of 28 Old 04-18-2017, 01:45 PM
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But,but,but.....it has been remastered in 4K.,....


Sort of like using photoshop to turn a 7 model into a 10...........she is not really a 10, but looks pretty darn good in the picture.

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post #15 of 28 Old 04-18-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by teachsac View Post
I always use UHD when referring to UHD Blu-ray.
I normally agree with being specific even to the point of pedantry, but only when there is some ambiguity inherent in not being pedantic which could lead to someone making a mistake in an actual decision.

In this case, UHD and 4K are interchangeable in most people's minds. Is that bad? Especially for 99.99999999999% of consumers who will never own nor likely see a native 4096 x 2160 display outside of a commercial cinema? No, I don't think so. Why would they care? Why should they?

This is one scenario where it's best to let people call UHD, 4K and 4K, UHD if they want to, and not nitpick because nitpicking won't influence the outcome.

That would not only be pedantry, but pointless pedantry, which is tedious. (yes, I say this as a guy who is a self-admitted pedant where tech is concerned, at least on this forum).

Would I correct someone who used the term 4K instead of UHD in real life? Not worth it. Pedantry tends to annoy people.
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post #16 of 28 Old 04-18-2017, 03:17 PM
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Yep. I never correct anyone when they interchange the two (here). I might correct the "geek squad". Not a big deal IMO.
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post #17 of 28 Old 04-19-2017, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post
As I said:


1. There have been many threads on this topic.
2. These are generic terms that have been adopted/used in the industry. While true 4K is 4096 x 2160, the "generic" definition is horizontal resolution of about 4,000 pixels or higher.
3. My focus was that Blu-ray wasn't referred to as 2k. It is used quite often in the industry for 1920 x1080.


I always use UHD when referring to UHD Blu-ray.
EXACTLY!!! My point is the lack of consistency. I spent 20 years as an Electronics Technician in the Navy, so I am well versed in terminology.

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post #18 of 28 Old 04-21-2017, 06:08 AM
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Because anything "Ultra" sounds stupid
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post #19 of 28 Old 05-11-2017, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooch02000 View Post
What I want to know is why UHD Bluray discs aren't 200GB...
Because they use H265 / HEVC instead of H264 (AVC), which allows 4X the number of pixels to be encoded using only 2X the storage. Meaning, they'll need to be 100gb in order to match the quality of current Blurays, pixel for pixel.

However other aspects are superior, namely 10-bit encoding is more efficient (which aside from PQ vs Gamma, which is whole other story), resulting in superior image quality compared to 8-bit without increasing file size by much.

Actually I've seen that 10-bit encodes can be actually smaller than 8-bit for the same effective quality, even with 8-bit source material. It has to do with quantization errors being treated like noise which is harder to compress. So taking high-bitrate or even uncompressed 8-bit source, then encoding to 10-bit (using either H264 or H265) will result in smaller files with higher quality than 8-bit source -> 8-bit encoding.
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post #20 of 28 Old 05-13-2017, 02:17 PM
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The only term I have a problem with, is when advertisers claim that 4K has 4X the resolution as full (1080p) HD. It's misleading. If they can't equate pixel count with resolution, they shouldn't be in the game.

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post #21 of 28 Old 06-07-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Because they use H265 / HEVC instead of H264 (AVC), which allows 4X the number of pixels to be encoded using only 2X the storage. Meaning, they'll need to be 100gb in order to match the quality of current Blurays, pixel for pixel.
So the 100GB UHD encodes are the same (or better) quality as 50GB blurays even though they're not 4x the size? I didn't realize this. I thought, for some reason, that the ~200GB requirement couldn't be met, at least feasibly, so they just gave up on it.
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post #22 of 28 Old 06-07-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipervick View Post
OK,

I need to rant here. With the next generation of resolution, UHD, people are swarming all over this "4K" bandwagon. However, this is a severe misconception.

To keep it simple, DVD is 480p and Blu-Ray is 1080p. These all describe the resolution in the vertical plane, the height of the screen if you will. HD resolution is 1920x1080 pixels.

UHD is twice that at 3840x2160 pixels.

We don't call Blu-Ray 2K, describing the width. So why in the hell are people calling UHD 4K???

It makes no sense...
Because our society is FULL of inaccurate euphemisms , generally accepted by the population at large.

Cheers
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post #23 of 28 Old 06-08-2017, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ralarcon1 View Post
Because our society is FULL of inaccurate euphemisms , generally accepted by the population at large.

Don't you tell me you've never heard of a "beamer" - That's what (almost) every German uses when he or she is actually talking about a front projector, drives me up the walls every time (especially since I'm a Trekker, too)

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post #24 of 28 Old 06-08-2017, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooch02000 View Post
So the 100GB UHD encodes are the same (or better) quality as 50GB blurays even though they're not 4x the size? I didn't realize this. I thought, for some reason, that the ~200GB requirement couldn't be met, at least feasibly, so they just gave up on it.
No that is just BS by those who have not bought UHD equipment regurgitating the 'upscale SD is just as good as HD' nonsense. You can see by my native UHD caps thread the resolution is much greater then 1080p can achieve. You can also go to caps-a-holic and see what a huge improvement the UHD Groundhog day is over the old BD.
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post #25 of 28 Old 06-09-2017, 05:21 AM
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Groundhog Day? On UHD BD?

I can't believe I missed this one.


P.S. According to blu-ray.com it'll be released next spring...

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post #26 of 28 Old 06-09-2017, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post
No that is just BS by those who have not bought UHD equipment regurgitating the 'upscale SD is just as good as HD' nonsense. You can see by my native UHD caps thread the resolution is much greater then 1080p can achieve. You can also go to caps-a-holic and see what a huge improvement the UHD Groundhog day is over the old BD.
I meant that even though UHD discs are not 4x the capacity of Bluray (but 4x the pixel count), the encoding process using h265 is so efficient that we don't actually need 200gb discs. That's why they can get away with 100gb discs for UHD. If this is true, that's encouraging, because I was under the impression that one would need 4x the data capacity if one was quadrupling the pixel count.
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post #27 of 28 Old 06-09-2017, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Groundhog Day? On UHD BD?

I can't believe I missed this one.


P.S. According to blu-ray.com it'll be released next spring...
The one on cap-a-holic is from the Sony UHD download service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gooch02000 View Post
I meant that even though UHD discs are not 4x the capacity of Bluray (but 4x the pixel count), the encoding process using h265 is so efficient that we don't actually need 200gb discs. That's why they can get away with 100gb discs for UHD. If this is true, that's encouraging, because I was under the impression that one would need 4x the data capacity if one was quadrupling the pixel count.
I wasnt disputing you but the one you quoted. Some of the early upscaled from 2K UHD BDs were small enough to fit on a 50gb disk like the Martian. It's not really pixel count that has to be concerned about but the compression rate which ranges from 35mbps to 67mbps, obviously the higher the better the detail.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=277330
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Originally Posted by vipervick View Post
OK,

I need to rant here. With the next generation of resolution, UHD, people are swarming all over this "4K" bandwagon. However, this is a severe misconception.

To keep it simple, DVD is 480p and Blu-Ray is 1080p. These all describe the resolution in the vertical plane, the height of the screen if you will. HD resolution is 1920x1080 pixels.

UHD is twice that at 3840x2160 pixels.

We don't call Blu-Ray 2K, describing the width. So why in the hell are people calling UHD 4K???

It makes no sense...
It began due to the display manufactures making 2160p displays and calling them 4K before the UHD Alliance finished it's standards.
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