Better sound quality with truhd & dtshd? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 01-29-2006, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Anybody know how much better sound quality will be when using truehd or dtshd???? Will we be able to hear a difference between compressed audio and lossless???????? Also.....when a movie is played in HD over cable or satelite, what are they actually playing the movie on???????? Does somebody just pop in a dvd, or do they have the original masters????????? Always wondered about that!!
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post #2 of 40 Old 01-29-2006, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099
Anybody know how much better sound quality will be when using truehd or dtshd???? Will we be able to hear a difference between compressed audio and lossless???????? Also.....when a movie is played in HD over cable or satelite, what are they actually playing the movie on???????? Does somebody just pop in a dvd, or do they have the original masters????????? Always wondered about that!!
Since that you're a new member and all...

1) Probably not.

2) The DD and DTS soundtracks on DVDs are lossy-compressed audio. Lossless means no filtering is used; ie the "inaudible" frequency is not thrown out. So you can have lossy compressed audio and lossless compressed audio. Example: the MLP tracks on DVD-Audio are lossless compressed.

3) I would hazard a guess as BetaHD. (yet another Sony format - sacre bleu!)


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post #3 of 40 Old 01-29-2006, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you mean nobody will be able to hear a difference or just me (because im a new member????) If so then whats the point of lossless if nobody can tell anyways????
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post #4 of 40 Old 01-29-2006, 10:46 AM
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If you can tell the difference between a crappy lowbite mp3 and the original cd then i'm sure you'll be able to tell the difference between lossy DD/DTS and their lossless HD versions.
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post #5 of 40 Old 01-29-2006, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099
Do you mean nobody will be able to hear a difference or just me (because im a new member????) If so then whats the point of lossless if nobody can tell anyways????
I think he means that the topic is discussed a bunch, not that you can't tell just by being a new member.

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post #6 of 40 Old 01-29-2006, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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This is dissapointing.... I was hoping to be blown away by the next generation sound................ :(
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post #7 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099
This is dissapointing.... I was hoping to be blown away by the next generation sound................ :(
The setup will have a greater impact than the source.
A lot of people have a receiver+speaker-setup in the < 1,000$ price range,
and a lot of people in the future will have a setup in this price range that is capable of playing TrueHD-tracks.
A system like that can easily be outperformed by a state of the art system playing a good DTS-track. Even a next-gen <5,000$ system could be outperformed without much troubles.
You can get blown away by a good CD, played on good equipment, right now. You don't need next-gen at all for that. Don't get me wrong: I want next-gen sound, but let's be realistic about it and blame your equipment if it can't blow you away.
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post #8 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 05:55 AM
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The difference will be similar to the one given by a regular CD and a DVD-audio. If you
can hear that difference, thats probably what you will get.

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post #9 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks guys....at the very least we'll have discrete 7.1
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post #10 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 11:22 AM
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To everybody,
I was responding to each of his questions in order. :) No belittling the newbie!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3
The difference will be similar to the one given by a regular CD and a DVD-audio. If you
can hear that difference, thats probably what you will get.
Shamus, if you have the time and some spare change for a DualDisc album (with high res 48/96 multichannel MLP audio tracks - Lee Ann Womack or Nine Inch Nails), go listen to what DVD-Audio is about. Then compare what you hear on CD and on the Dolby Digital versions included in the album. Then you'll get a sense of what the next gen audio will sound like. :D


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post #11 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
Shamus, if you have the time and some spare change for a DualDisc album (with high res 48/96 multichannel MLP audio tracks - Lee Ann Womack or Nine Inch Nails), go listen to what DVD-Audio is about. Then compare what you hear on CD and on the Dolby Digital versions included in the album. Then you'll get a sense of what the next gen audio will sound like. :D
I second that,
but make sure you demo it on equipment that allows you to hear a difference ;)
my computer-speakers sound just as bad with dvd-audio as they do with a 128kbps mp3 :D you wouldn't hear a difference !!
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post #12 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099
thanks guys....at the very least we'll have discrete 7.1
From what studio and which films?
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post #13 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099
thanks guys....at the very least we'll have discrete 7.1
Well, the potential at any rate. I'd imagine for the near future, we'll only be seeing DD and DTS tracks on the majority of launch titles.

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post #14 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul
From what studio and which films?
Maybe (we can hope) Blackhawk Down. Hopefully they're using the 50GB disc partially for lossless 7.1 audio.

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post #15 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 04:21 PM
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Black Hawk Down was mixed for SDDS, 8 channels, but the speaker array for SDDS doesn't come close to matching the home 7.1 setup you see with people doing 7.1 processing on DD/DTS (e.g., Lexicon L7).

SDDS is 5 fronts (left extra, left, center, right, right extra) and 2 surrounds (left, right).

Home 7.1 setups are overwhelmingly 3 fronts (left, center, right), 2 sides (left, right) and 2 rears (left, right); Lexicon's L7 processing, for example, synthesizes the 2 side channels from a 5.1/6.1 mix. I'd argue that 99.9% of the people on this forum with 7.1 setups are 3/2/2.

I think there's a HUGE disconnect with what people expect when they read 7.1 audio in the specs and how films are actually mixed. Outside of the reality that the majority of films today are mixed 5.1, you can't just take an 8 channel SDDS mix and process it to a typical home 7.1 setup and maintain any sense of proper panning/steering...if anything, you'd likely have to collapse the front 5 down to 3 and synthesize new "discrete" sides...and that's probably not going to sound too hot given the sound design considerations typical of SDDS mixes. SDDS is basically 5.1 with 2 extra fronts...that's not conducive to delivering 4 "discrete" surround channels where only 2 exist in the soundtrack.

Now, you could argue that we'll see a move to drop the current de facto 7.1 home speaker array locations (3/2/2) and move to an SDDS setup (5/2), but I just don't see that happening, what with how Dolby and DTS see the world, not to mention people who have *significant* money invested in rooms/layout for 3/2/2 aren't going to want to move to 5/2.

EDIT: Here's a list of all the films that have an 8 channel SDDS mix...

http://www.sdds.com/news_movies.cfm

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post #16 of 40 Old 01-30-2006, 04:47 PM
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Most movie audio is re-mixed for home use into the 5.1 standard.

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post #17 of 40 Old 01-31-2006, 08:15 AM
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Chet,

I realize that audio is re-mixed for DVD, but my point is that the guide for that re-mix is the existing 5.1 mix cut for theaters (e.g., DD, DTS). Using SDDS as a "guide" to get 5/2 into 3/2/2 doesn't seem well advised, and synthesizing new channels where none exist in the 5.1 soundtrack sounds about as appealing as colorizing old B&W film.

My core point is that a few people seem to be placing way too much emphasis on 7.1 from day one. Although an insider has posted that we'll likely be surprised by the number of 7.1 mixes on both formats at launch, I wonder if that's just serving up something horribly artificial in the name of specsmanship.

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post #18 of 40 Old 01-31-2006, 08:35 AM
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I'd be surprised if we get any 7.1 mixes.
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post #19 of 40 Old 01-31-2006, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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If they want us to keep buying the same movies over and over they will......How many copies of Evil Dead 2 do I have? :eek:
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post #20 of 40 Old 02-04-2006, 10:47 AM
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I'd betcha Mi Casa (most familiar remix was LOTR director's cuts with DTS-ES 6.1 audio) would do high res. 7.1 discrete remixes if given the original audio stems to do a proper mix. They do a good job, and come from audiophile backgrounds. This could be a boon for post production houses if the director wanted to "kick it up a notch" for home video.

I too would rather they do the home theater 7.1 arrangement of 3/2/2/LFE as most 8 channel home theaters are designed that way.

Again, don't expect something like a Bose (blech!) audio theater (or some cheapo HTIB) bought at Best Buy to be the system that will allow you to hear the difference between lossy and lossless audio. You need decent electronics and speakers... not as expensive a proposition as one would think if you take the time to research and listen before buying.

I have a pretty decent theater at home (though I'd like to move to 100% matching speakers) and a high res. DVD-Audio/SA-CD player and can easily tell the difference between a CD or DTS/Dolby Digital track of the same album and the high resolution track. Of course, the better the original audio engineering the clearer a difference it becomes!

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post #21 of 40 Old 02-05-2006, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree
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post #22 of 40 Old 02-07-2006, 01:42 PM
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I too am very curious about this question of what higher res audio will deliver. Let me offer these observations.

On my $10k audio system (Nautilus 803s, Krell KAV 300, Bag end 18" 400 W sub) I can clearly hear the difference between lower bitrate DVDs (128 kbit/sec or whatever that lower spec was) and higher ones (~480 kbit/sec or whatever it is) like the LOTR trilogy. Bass extension and overall soundstage are dramatically different. I also feel I can easily hear important differences between these best DVD sound tracks and the again higher bitrates of CD (and certainly I hear the difference between mp3s and CD). This convinces me that major increases in bit rate for HD audio will make a large difference, possibly even larger than any of these other differences.

Overall, I take it from my experiences that DVD sound is pretty darn compressed, pretty darn limited in range, and just pretty darn crappy compared to what's theoretically possible. By theoretically possible, I mean I hear considerably more bass extension in theaters on things like LOTR (all the deep bass on FOTR in the mines scene) and even films without showcase high tech sound tracks like last year's German film Downfall (shell explosions were VERY deep in theater) than I'm achieving at home. Clearly, some of this is going to be differences in sound system, but I'm thinking that a serious, detectable chunk of the difference is compression/space limitations on DVD and I will be getting some (perhaps a lot) of these losses back on HD audio.
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post #23 of 40 Old 02-07-2006, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_in_L.A.
(snip)

Overall, I take it from my experiences that DVD sound is pretty darn compressed, pretty darn limited in range, and just pretty darn crappy compared to what's theoretically possible. By theoretically possible, I mean I hear considerably more bass extension in theaters on things like LOTR (all the deep bass on FOTR in the mines scene) and even films without showcase high tech sound tracks like last year's German film Downfall (shell explosions were VERY deep in theater) than I'm achieving at home. Clearly, some of this is going to be differences in sound system, but I'm thinking that a serious, detectable chunk of the difference is compression/space limitations on DVD and I will be getting some (perhaps a lot) of these losses back on HD audio.
If you're suggesting that DVD 5.1 audiostreams are more compressed than their theatrical versions, well that's not true. DD for DVD is 384kbps and 448 kpbs or something like that while DD on film is slightly lower than 384kpbs, at least that's when DD was first used in films. DTS Theatrical is also lower than DTS on DVD at full-bitrate.

Of course, getting LOTR in lossless will be sweet. I can't wait for the lighting of the Beacons scene. I KNOW I'll shed some tears. :D:D:D


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post #24 of 40 Old 02-07-2006, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_in_L.A.
I too am very curious about this question of what higher res audio will deliver. Let me offer these observations.

On my $10k audio system (Nautilus 803s, Krell KAV 300, Bag end 18" 400 W sub) I can clearly hear the difference between lower bitrate DVDs (128 kbit/sec or whatever that lower spec was) and higher ones (~480 kbit/sec or whatever it is) like the LOTR trilogy. Bass extension and overall soundstage are dramatically different. I also feel I can easily hear important differences between these best DVD sound tracks and the again higher bitrates of CD (and certainly I hear the difference between mp3s and CD). This convinces me that major increases in bit rate for HD audio will make a large difference, possibly even larger than any of these other differences.
You're comparing apples and oranges and drawing conclusions from it. It is very likely (probable I'd estimate) that most of the differences you hear are due to different mixes and not the encoding. Different mixes are the true source for many differences claimed to be due to codec/encoding. LOTR EE is almost certainly a different mix than LOTR (the video is better, the movie is longer, it's on 2 DVDs, etc).

This is a big problem IMO with the praise given to the "superior" format, quite often the comparison isn't between the same mix, and if they are from the same mix, the differences dry up (greatly, if not entirely).

Quote:
Overall, I take it from my experiences that DVD sound is pretty darn compressed, pretty darn limited in range, and just pretty darn crappy compared to what's theoretically possible. By theoretically possible, I mean I hear considerably more bass extension in theaters on things like LOTR (all the deep bass on FOTR in the mines scene) and even films without showcase high tech sound tracks like last year's German film Downfall (shell explosions were VERY deep in theater) than I'm achieving at home. Clearly, some of this is going to be differences in sound system, but I'm thinking that a serious, detectable chunk of the difference is compression/space limitations on DVD and I will be getting some (perhaps a lot) of these losses back on HD audio.
I'm guessing acoustic problems in your threater. And again, you're not comparing the same mix, the theater almost certainly uses a different mix than the DVD.

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post #25 of 40 Old 02-07-2006, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3
The difference will be similar to the one given by a regular CD and a DVD-audio. If you
can hear that difference, thats probably what you will get.
That will be the only difference.

All this talk about lower lows or more dynamics in the theater when compared to the home DVD version is misunderstood. Compressed audio is very capable of full frequency and dynamic range that is as capable as uncompressed audio formats such as pro-analog, DVD-Audio and SACD.

Many home video versions of movies are remixed for the "average" consumer that have average audio systems. That means home systems that are not capable of well extended bass or capable of delivering super wide dynamic range could be damaged by these types of very dynamic soundtracks. Not to mention the audio limiters built into DVD players that many of these consumers don't even know what that's about and even more, systems that are not set up properly at home does effects the sound.

Even for the ones that have the nice systems, know what they are doing and take advantage of turning off the dynamic limiter in their DVD player and sometimes the ones built into their receiver or pre-amps etc, the sound mix may or may not be the same as what was played in the theater.

Take for example the Jurassic Park movie that was released on LaserDisc and then onto DVD. The bass of the footsteps was far less powerful on the DVD version than on the Laserdisc. It had nothing to do with how compressed or the bitrate that was used for the audio, it had to do with how it was mixed for the home consumer.

There may be less and less of this going on today, however it still holds true that the new uncompressed audio formats will be just a little bit more of a step up when comparing regular CD and the new audio formats such as DVD-Audio and SACD.

The big difference will be in the amount of detail of the sound that one will hear. For example, kind of like looking at two pictures of one image taken with different resolutions. One with a 3meg camera and another taken with a 16meg camera. Whites are still white and blacks are still black. On the higher meg camera, there's less noise and more image information that can be seen.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #26 of 40 Old 02-07-2006, 03:23 PM
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Hmm, interesting responses, thanks all. I appreciate that there may be other things going on here. I'm particularly interested in concepts like dynamic limiters in DVD players or receivers, etc, about which I have not heard anything in the general AV magazines. My question is, where can one read up on some more thorough treatments of digital sound? I've found most of the good stuff focuses on digital imaging, not sound.

My research on sound suggests that concepts like "hurting the sound system" because of excessive dynamic range encoded on the sound track are wives tales, so I remain a skeptic here all around. I hear lots of differences as described above, and I understand there are many links in the chain. I do find it VERY hard to believe that cinema sound tracks run at lower bit rates than DVD - can we get some authoritative support to back up these claims?
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post #27 of 40 Old 02-07-2006, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_in_L.A.
Hmm, interesting responses, thanks all. I appreciate that there may be other things going on here. I'm particularly interested in concepts like dynamic limiters in DVD players or receivers, etc, about which I have not heard anything in the general AV magazines. My question is, where can one read up on some more thorough treatments of digital sound? I've found most of the good stuff focuses on digital imaging, not sound.

My research on sound suggests that concepts like "hurting the sound system" because of excessive dynamic range encoded on the sound track are wives tales, so I remain a skeptic here all around. I hear lots of differences as described above, and I understand there are many links in the chain. I do find it VERY hard to believe that cinema sound tracks run at lower bit rates than DVD - can we get some authoritative support to back up these claims?

Dynamic limiters in DVD players is easy to access. Simply turn on your DVD player (make sure the TV is on too) and you should be able to find a button on the DVD remote that says "setup" or something to that effect. You will then be in the DVD menu system. No need to worry though as it's ment for consumers to adjust. At one point, you will run across the part of the menu that allows you to compress the dynamic rang (usually called family mode or late at night mode) (and guess what? It may already be on as a default!) so that loud and soft sounds are at about the same level. There are other options that should allow one to turn off the compression completly. On some units, "on" means compression "on" or "on" can also mean full dynamic range "on". So you may need to read the owners manual to make sure your selecting what you want.

I have read about these limiters in audio magazines before, however then again, I'm always reading about audio/video equipment.

Dynamic limitors (for DD5.1 audio) in pre-amps or receivers may not be as commen. My pre-amp has one, though I usually don't see them in many recievers.

Wide dynamic rang audio can hurt audio systems that are not designed for it. I've even bought CDs that has warning lables to let the user know to play the CD at a lower than normal level so that when the loud sounds hit, it will not let the amp clip the signal and possably damage the speakers. Trust me, you clip a signal enough, your speakers will blow. It's that simple. On my amp, there are lights that light up when the amp runs out of power (telling me that the signal is being clipped). It's telling me to turn down the volume so that the lights don't light up anymore.

I am also skeptic about bit rates in theaters when compaired to the DVD version. I would think that the theaters would be using higher bit rates. On the other hand, I could understand why this could happen. The DD5.1 soundtrack on the film itself does not allow for much space to carry lots of digital information. Then again, there's other digital formats that get their sounds from digital discs that probably use a much higher bit rate.

Then there's IMAX, I think in some cases, it's true CD quality sound and maybe even better...for all the channels.

By the way, you don't have to have wide dynamic audio to hurt spekers. Simply turn on a FM audio source and turn your receiver's volume control as high up as you can. See how long your spekers last. True, you would never do that normally, however with wide dynamic audio, clipping the audio here and there could also blow your speakers, it just takes a lot longer for the coils to heat up and melt. Not trying to be funny here, it's also known as a "slow blow".

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #28 of 40 Old 02-08-2006, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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You guys didnt explain my second question!!!!!!!!!! When comcast(direct tv) is playing a movie, what are they using to play it????? And how are they playing an HD movie from their On demand when a movie hasnt been remastered in HD?
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post #29 of 40 Old 02-08-2006, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099
You guys didnt explain my second question!!!!!!!!!! When comcast(direct tv) is playing a movie, what are they using to play it????? And how are they playing an HD movie from their On demand when a movie hasnt been remastered in HD?
I don't know these answers for sure, however I will take an educated guess. They probably use professional Digital Video Players that use a tape size of at least one inch or a little more or less.


A movie that has not been remastered to HD is not being played back in HD. It's simply upconverted to a HD resolution that's not capable of full detail like a movie that is rematered to HD.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #30 of 40 Old 02-09-2006, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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great... thanks everyone
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