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IronCamel's Avatar IronCamel
12:23 PM Liked: 12
post #61 of 137
07-31-2006 | Posts: 945
Joined: Apr 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan View Post

I applaud Sony for taking this mulligan. It shows that they "got the message" that the initial offerings were subpar, and maybe they'll plan to make their best effort in the future.

Or they've decided that BR50 isn't going to happen and now they have to prove they can do it with BR25 to avoid losing all confidence. There are lots of possibilities.

(For the record: this point was made for dramatic effect, I don't know what they are planning or the future of BR50. No one does, but them.)
IronCamel's Avatar IronCamel
12:24 PM Liked: 12
post #62 of 137
07-31-2006 | Posts: 945
Joined: Apr 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

Hang in there Rob, it can't get worse.

B.T.W.
Law 101 - Don't admit anything.
Law 201 - Learn to use this phrase oftenI don't recall.


Actually it's "I'm sorry Senator, I have no recollection of those events." or "I would like to exercise my 5th amendment rights."
Mark Zimmer's Avatar Mark Zimmer
01:34 PM Liked: 10
post #63 of 137
07-31-2006 | Posts: 683
Joined: Nov 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

Given how the BD group is trying to position BD as "Beyond HD", I would not want to be the person responsible for marketing the new version. Do you go with Platinum Collection, Director's Cut, or some other moniker to differentiate that this version is both new and "better"?


I can see it now: "The Fifth Element: The Version That Doesn't Suck"


IronCamel's Avatar IronCamel
01:44 PM Liked: 12
post #64 of 137
07-31-2006 | Posts: 945
Joined: Apr 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Zimmer View Post

I can see it now: "The Fifth Element: The Version That Doesn't Suck"


or "The Fifth Element: Just buy it and shut the **** up!"
Cliff Stephenson's Avatar Cliff Stephenson
03:13 PM Liked: 10
post #65 of 137
07-31-2006 | Posts: 516
Joined: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by txfilmguy View Post

The fault is likely in more than one place. Supposedly there is a firmware update on the way that will improve PQ, but as far as I know there is no firmware solution for dirt and scratches on the film transfer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

Sounds pretty much spot on. Is it really so difficult for some to accept that there is often more than one reason why things happen?

The more appropriate question to ask is, "Is it really so difficult for some the accept that Sony might have dropped the ball on all of this?" I think it's weird that the Samsung has a "soften only Sony and LG titles" setting in the chip, because, as people are now reporting first hand, Warner's Training Day BD is almost as good as the HD-DVD (barring some MPEG2 motion artifacting). So how can the Samsung reproduce a sharp, crisp Training Day but then randomly softens the majority of Sony and LG titles? I can think of two obvious options:
A) The Samsung really isn't at fault and was thrown under the bus by Sony.
or
B) The Samsung really is at fault, but only trips this "faulty" circuit when inserting a Sony or LG BD.

(why do I fear that the alternate "c" option that will soon be given will be some ridiculous concoction that throws all logic out the window in favor of some scenario where people don't have to fault the actual discs or Sony? And before someone says "maybe it's a VC-1 disc" realize that if the BD was VC-1 and still doesn't quite match up, that's even worse.)
Dolphc's Avatar Dolphc
03:21 PM Liked: 10
post #66 of 137
07-31-2006 | Posts: 269
Joined: Jul 2006
Finally, a person with some sense steps in. Cliff is 1000% correct here. The Even barring the softened picture here for a moment, Sony used a master with many instances of damage and debris. The artifacting and softness only seem to worsen the situation that a seemingly regarded "reference" disc was intially rolled out in piss poor form. Besides the color reproduction being much more accurate and lively, there is nothing next gen about this disc.

Furthermore, WB was able to craft a great looking BD release that doesn't fall victim to anything other than compression issues. Is Cliff right, does the faulty chip no what studio titles are in the drive, and then kick it in gear?

Jesus people, come on
Rob Tomlin's Avatar Rob Tomlin
05:06 PM Liked: 11
post #67 of 137
07-31-2006 | Posts: 13,752
Joined: Jul 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

Robert Harris (film restoration expert who worked on Lawrence of Arabia and Spartacus) just mentioned that Warners have pulled a few of their planned 1080i transfer movies from release, in order to give them new masters. Not sure if there's any plan to redo the ones that have already been released, but at least they're also listening to consumer complaints.


Which would mean that they will have the opportunity to get rid of the terrible EE that is in the current master. Excellent news.

Did Mr. Harris indicate whether he will be participating in the creation of the new master?
Issac Hunt's Avatar Issac Hunt
12:50 AM Liked: 10
post #68 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 1,644
Joined: Aug 2005
Sorry, he didn't say anything about his personal involvement, just that Warner had pulled some of the releases they had in the pipe-line which had come from 1080i masters. It's my speculation that this might explain the relative paucity of WB releases on HD DVD recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Stephenson View Post

The more appropriate question to ask is, "Is it really so difficult for some the accept that Sony might have dropped the ball on all of this?"

The chip issue on the Samsung has now been confirmed by Samsung engineers, no? Is this really too much for some to take? That doesn't mean there aren't problems with Sony releases, it just means they may not be quite as bad as initially reported. As to Sony's first BD releases they're kind of in a quandry aren't they, since right now they'd be helping to sell a competitior's (Samsung's) hardware rather than their own. If the news of a reissue is true I'm not sure how this can be taken as anything but a possitive, indicating Sony has an interest in some sort of quality in their HD titles. Shame it's after release, but then I feel the same way about the hardware for both formats as well.
Cliff Stephenson's Avatar Cliff Stephenson
02:19 AM Liked: 10
post #69 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 516
Joined: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

The chip issue on the Samsung has now been confirmed by Samsung engineers, no? Is this really too much for some to take? That doesn't mean there aren't problems with Sony releases, it just means they may not be quite as bad as initially reported. l

You know what... whatever If that's what you want to believe, I'm confident that some of you guys are only making yourself look more and more foolish as people are starting to see how massively overblown the "faulty chip" fiasco really was. Fifth Element is just bad. You know it. I know it. Even people who haven't seen it know it. If you want to continue to pardon Sony's responsibility in all of this, go right ahead. I could give a sh!t at this point. I'll continue to hold BD and Sony accountable until they release the product they promised that's worth my money. I DO happen to know what the first planned BD50 is and if they can't give that to us, I'm sure we'll still get plenty of retarded excuses from Sony and some of their AVS elves for Christmas instead. I guess we'll see later this year if they make it.
suprmallet's Avatar suprmallet
02:49 AM Liked: 11
post #70 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 1,387
Joined: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

When the DVD of Ed Wood was recalled and replaced with another version soon after release was that counted as a double dip? Strikes me it would just be quality control after the fact, such as is now happening with hardware for both formats. None of it looks very clever, and makes me wonder how much these companies have cut their quality control departments.

Actually, I believe Ed Wood was replaced due to legal issues regarding the deleted scenes. So, in that case, there was no need to replace the original pressing, because it was actually superior to the repressing. Same deal as the original Warner issue of Little Shop of Horrors and the Criterion Seven Samurai (although now Criterion is doing a third version of Seven Samurai, but that's beside the point).
Issac Hunt's Avatar Issac Hunt
10:38 AM Liked: 10
post #71 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 1,644
Joined: Aug 2005
Legal issues or quality control, the reasons are just sauce. Neither product should have made it past QA and in the process cost both companies moolah. My only point was that until we hear confirmation from SPHE about this issue, and also what they plan to do about the product already on the market, it's a little premature to label this rumour as a double dip. Shouldn't we be pleased that companies are willing to admit their mistakes and try to improve (even if they should have gotten it right the first time) ?
Issac Hunt's Avatar Issac Hunt
10:39 AM Liked: 10
post #72 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 1,644
Joined: Aug 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Stephenson View Post

You know what... whatever If that's what you want to believe, I'm confident that some of you guys are only making yourself look more and more foolish as people are starting to see how massively overblown the "faulty chip" fiasco really was. Fifth Element is just bad. You know it. I know it. Even people who haven't seen it know it. If you want to continue to pardon Sony's responsibility in all of this, go right ahead. I could give a sh!t at this point. I'll continue to hold BD and Sony accountable until they release the product they promised that's worth my money. I DO happen to know what the first planned BD50 is and if they can't give that to us, I'm sure we'll still get plenty of retarded excuses from Sony and some of their AVS elves for Christmas instead. I guess we'll see later this year if they make it.

Raaaaaaage dump!
Dolphc's Avatar Dolphc
10:42 AM Liked: 10
post #73 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 269
Joined: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

Shouldn't we be pleased that companies are willing to admit their mistakes and try to improve (even if they should have gotten it right the first time) ?


yeah, when they are provided free of charge to the people who purchased them in such a s*itty state. We are not talking about a re-release 4-5 years down the road when the technology has matured to a whole new level, we are arguing that a quick double dip to correct mastering errors is a dick thing to do.

Cliff, I feel you on this one, I really do.
Dolphc's Avatar Dolphc
10:43 AM Liked: 10
post #74 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 269
Joined: Jul 2006
And the Ed Wood recall due to not getting legal clearance is a wholly different issue as any that slipped out were not plagued by poor quality and such. That case is apples to oranges!
suprmallet's Avatar suprmallet
03:22 PM Liked: 11
post #75 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 1,387
Joined: May 2006
Yeah, as I mentioned, the original version of Ed Wood was actually superior by having more extra features. The PQ/SQ were identical on both.
Dolphc's Avatar Dolphc
03:48 PM Liked: 10
post #76 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 269
Joined: Jul 2006
It's like screaming at the deaf!
Kram Sacul's Avatar Kram Sacul
04:33 PM Liked: 10
post #77 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 5,257
Joined: Sep 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprmallet View Post

Yeah, as I mentioned, the original version of Ed Wood was actually superior by having more extra features. The PQ/SQ were identical on both.

What is missing from the rerelease? The controversial deleted scene is still there.
txfilmguy's Avatar txfilmguy
05:33 PM Liked: 10
post #78 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 1,681
Joined: Sep 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Stephenson View Post

The more appropriate question to ask is, "Is it really so difficult for some the accept that Sony might have dropped the ball on all of this?" I think it's weird that the Samsung has a "soften only Sony and LG titles" setting in the chip, because, as people are now reporting first hand, Warner's Training Day BD is almost as good as the HD-DVD (barring some MPEG2 motion artifacting). So how can the Samsung reproduce a sharp, crisp Training Day but then randomly softens the majority of Sony and LG titles?

There's another fault with the Samsung - Lord of War is a LionsGate title, but it forgot to activate the "soften only Sony and LG titles" chip.

Yes, Sony's first batch had some piss-poor transfers in there, but keep in mind Samsung crops the image more than the Toshiba and has a brightness/contrast issue through HDMI as well. This is a great format that was not fully baked at launch, and if I had any pull or say-so in the BDA, I would put the pressure on both hardware and media producers to step up to the plate with the best product come 2nd generation, not another stop-gap. Any shortcomings on Sony's side does not absolve Samsung, and vice versa.

If HD DVD is the look and sound of perfect, then is perfection too much to ask for from Blu-ray?
nataraj's Avatar nataraj
10:21 PM Liked: 10
post #79 of 137
08-01-2006 | Posts: 8,020
Joined: Mar 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

Sony has an interest in some sort of quality in their HD titles.

Wow. Thats beyond HD for you ...
Issac Hunt's Avatar Issac Hunt
12:57 AM Liked: 10
post #80 of 137
08-02-2006 | Posts: 1,644
Joined: Aug 2005
I beieve that phrase refers to the BD extra features that are apparently in the pipe-line. To the people complaining about a double dip, do you have information that Sony is going to actually rerelease and that they won't be accepting returns/refunds? Or is this just a place to spill your hate?
fire407's Avatar fire407
01:34 AM Liked: 10
post #81 of 137
08-02-2006 | Posts: 1,527
Joined: May 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

Or is this just a place to spill your hate?

I honestly don't see how anyone can not hate Sony for this fiasco. The majority of people on the forum supported Blu-ray before the launch. It's because of the crappy Blu-ray launch that many of us bought the other format. Most people on this forum now think that the other format has EARNED our respect. The Fifth Element is just the example of how Sony's lack of quality control is negatively impacting Blu-ray. My guess is that there are some higher ups at Sony that thought that releasing The Fifth Element would be a good idea since it is a reference DVD, and they just assumed that the BD version would be reference as well--but without following through to make sure it was done right. Sony used this title in their promotion of their player. Many of us on this forum were really looking forward to it, and if the reviews had been good, I would have jumped at a chance to own a Blu-ray player. With the poor launch a lot of us are going to be very tentative before buying into Blu-ray now. We are going to be more cautious now with even the Pioneer and Panasonic, and not buy them unless the reviews are stellar. Many people here bought the Samsung based on the Blu-ray hype, and most of the players have been returned. Again, even if you are the most ardent Blu-ray supporter you have to blame Sony for the fiasco. I know Samsung supports Blu-ray, but right now I would bet that they hate Sony.
sfhub's Avatar sfhub
02:23 AM Liked: 11
post #82 of 137
08-02-2006 | Posts: 9,527
Joined: Aug 2001
So here is the quadruple dip formula:
1st release - mpg2 SL - theatrical version
2nd release - mpg2 DL - extended version
3rd release - vc1 SL - superbit theatrical version
4th release - vc1 DL - superbit extended version

Don't know why people are complaining about BluRay PQ. It seems quadruple dip was the plan from the start. People should be complaining about quadruple dip rather than BluRay technology not being up to snuff. Correction, vc1 will probably be renamed sc1 with some Sony proprietary special sauce.
Rowlander's Avatar Rowlander
02:43 AM Liked: 11
post #83 of 137
08-02-2006 | Posts: 295
Joined: Jul 2006
Exactly, fire 407!
As long as Blu-Ray existed only on paper, it looked superior to HD-DVD. 50 gigabyte discs with modern compression and large studio support. I wanted that!
But the launch changed my opinion completely. I am not and never was a "HD-DVD fanboy", all I am interested in is image quality. And as long as Sony stays stubborn and sticks to MPEG2 on their 25 gig discs, there is just no way they will be able to deliver better picture quality than HD-DVD. Add to this the bad mastering and high prices compared to HD-DVD. Except for studio support, which has yet to pay off, there is no single logical reason to buy Blu-Ray.

It is sad. On paper Blu-Ray is still superior but if they can´t deliver BD50, they could lose. Sony did drop the ball on this completely.
Probably because of greed, using MPEG2 and because they underestimated the complexity of DL-discs and the importance of quality control and mastering. Now they have a lot of catching up to do.

The only thing I´m wondering:
Will any of this matter in a year? Will the ordinary consumer notice/know any of this or just buy into the sony marketing machinery?
Issac Hunt's Avatar Issac Hunt
03:50 AM Liked: 10
post #84 of 137
08-02-2006 | Posts: 1,644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fire407 View Post

I honestly don't see how anyone can not hate Sony for this fiasco. The majority of people on the forum supported Blu-ray before the launch. It's because of the crappy Blu-ray launch that many of us bought the other format. Most people on this forum now think that the other format has EARNED our respect. The Fifth Element is just the example of how Sony's lack of quality control is negatively impacting Blu-ray. My guess is that there are some higher ups at Sony that thought that releasing The Fifth Element would be a good idea since it is a reference DVD, and they just assumed that the BD version would be reference as well--but without following through to make sure it was done right. Sony used this title in their promotion of their player. Many of us on this forum were really looking forward to it, and if the reviews had been good, I would have jumped at a chance to own a Blu-ray player. With the poor launch a lot of us are going to be very tentative before buying into Blu-ray now. We are going to be more cautious now with even the Pioneer and Panasonic, and not buy them unless the reviews are stellar. Many people here bought the Samsung based on the Blu-ray hype, and most of the players have been returned. Again, even if you are the most ardent Blu-ray supporter you have to blame Sony for the fiasco. I know Samsung supports Blu-ray, but right now I would bet that they hate Sony.

Thank you for explaining your positon with regard to the overall format battle, but I'm not seeing what that has to do with this specific rumour. If it turns out to be true doesn't it suggest those people higher up at Sony, that you suggest pushed for TFE to be released prematurely, might not be so obdurate any more. I don't see how that could possibly be seen as anything but a good thing. And, yes, things should have been right first time out, but there's no use crying over spilt milk. Just mop it up!
rover2002's Avatar rover2002
02:11 AM Liked: 10
post #85 of 137
08-03-2006 | Posts: 2,690
Joined: Sep 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by fire407 View Post

The Fifth Element to be re-released

This has to be a joke? Do all those who bought the 1st BR 'TFE' get a refund?
Cain's Avatar Cain
03:40 AM Liked: 11
post #86 of 137
08-03-2006 | Posts: 4,592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rover2002 View Post

This has to be a joke? Do all those who bought the 1st BR 'TFE' get a refund?

People actually bought it ??
laststarfighter's Avatar laststarfighter
05:19 AM Liked: 10
post #87 of 137
08-03-2006 | Posts: 575
Joined: Jun 2006
"The Island" dvd release in Canada was released with a 2.0 English track and a 5.1 french track, even though is says "English 5.1" on the rear cover.
the studio did offer a replacement disk to those that asked for it....
I have yet to see any statement on the dvd cases or else where(other than a few dvd websites)
leaving me to conclude that they are still selling the "flawed" dvd to customers that didn't hear about the "flaw" or see it(in the menu or on the processor's display) till the "flawed" disks are all sold.

so I could see Sony doing something similar.


if you don't like the studios double dipping, don't buy the first issue, and send an email/letter to the studio that you will not buy the bare bones dvd, but will wait till the S.E. comes out.

I for one am glad that TFE is going to be remastered now rather than a year from now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Stephenson View Post

I DO happen to know what the first planned BD50 is and if they can't give that to us, I'm sure we'll still get plenty of retarded excuses from Sony and some of their AVS elves for Christmas instead. I guess we'll see later this year if they make it.

so you have inside information that says BD50 will be out this year???
ctakim's Avatar ctakim
07:42 AM Liked: 10
post #88 of 137
08-03-2006 | Posts: 898
Joined: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca1 BD Supporter View Post

Prove that sony said this and not some guy form S&V.

kevinca1
BD Supporter
Blu-ray is here EXPERIENCEBLU
Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without

Man, you are in some serioius need of a new signiture line.
PFC5's Avatar PFC5
02:48 PM Liked: 10
post #89 of 137
08-03-2006 | Posts: 1,464
Joined: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

Sorry, he didn't say anything about his personal involvement, just that Warner had pulled some of the releases they had in the pipe-line which had come from 1080i masters. It's my speculation that this might explain the relative paucity of WB releases on HD DVD recently.


The chip issue on the Samsung has now been confirmed by Samsung engineers, no? Is this really too much for some to take? That doesn't mean there aren't problems with Sony releases, it just means they may not be quite as bad as initially reported. As to Sony's first BD releases they're kind of in a quandry aren't they, since right now they'd be helping to sell a competitior's (Samsung's) hardware rather than their own. If the news of a reissue is true I'm not sure how this can be taken as anything but a possitive, indicating Sony has an interest in some sort of quality in their HD titles. Shame it's after release, but then I feel the same way about the hardware for both formats as well.

I agree it is a POSITIVE for Sony IF (big if) they replace the first run of discs free of charge.

If they do not replace the discs free of charge (most likely IMO from history), then it is a NEGATIVE because they are showing their history of double/triple dipping the same titles like they did/do with SD DVDs, is already planned for the BD format too!

The problem with the quandry you mention about helping to sell a competitors machine IS one of my long standing issues with Sony controlling a format AND a studio. This just should not be allowed for exactly the quandry they are in that YOU pointed out.
tsb's Avatar tsb
09:17 PM Liked: 10
post #90 of 137
08-04-2006 | Posts: 4,917
Joined: May 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

I've held Sony in very low regard for quite some time. They just don't have the same attitude towards transfer quality that other studios exhibit. Picture quality takes a back seat to other considerations.

I've been gone for months, but I see it's the same old, same old.

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