PS3 owners on a budget, who want lossless HD audio - Look here. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm noticing an increasing number of new PS3 owners asking the same question: "How can I get lossless (PCM, Dolby True HD, DTS MA) from my PS3? I realize that some of you are on a budget and don't want to spend too much on a receiver. Keep this in mind - The only way to get lossless audio from the PS3 is by using HDMI to your receiver.

Essentially, what you need is a receiver that can handle PCM audio through HDMI - PCM is basically the digital master form of the film's audio before it is losslessly "zipped" into Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA. When True HD and DTS MA are decoded ("un-zipped" either by the player or receiver), it becomes PCM again. All three are essentially the same thing in the end. Thus, you need a receiver that will accept a 5.1 (or 7.1 in some cases) PCM stream.

* For all Dolby True HD discs, the PS3 will decode it (5.1 - 7.1) and send it to your receiver as PCM.

* For all DTS Master Audio discs, as of now, no decoder exists, therefore, you can use Optical or HDMI to listen to the core track at still a strong 1.5mbps.

* You can still listen to uncompressed PCM through your optical out if you wish, but it will be a 2.0 stereo signal. If you do not have a receiver and using TV speakers (only if your TV has an optical input), this is as good as it gets. With a receiver, keep in mind that you will still be restricted to 2.0 even if you hear sound coming out of all of your speakers. Your receiver's DSP and surround settings may be matrixing the 2.0 into a 5.1 or 7.1. This is not true 5.1 PCM.

Here are some suggestions that people on this forum have endorsed. Keep in mind that some of these receivers can only accept/output a 1080i signal. So be aware if you have a 1080p display. You can google search these receivers for more information.

$600 and under.

- Onkyo TX- 05 series. Particularly 605 and 705. Both have True HD and DTS MA decoders. Will retail for $499. This is going to be a monster value.
- Yamaha V661 / HTR 6060 (1080p, with HDMI audio processing!)
- Harman Kardon AVR 247 The best pure sound at this price.
- Sony STR-DG1000
- Denon 2307 CI.
- Onkyo SR604
- Onkyo SR674


$600 - $1000

- Panasonic SA-XR700 (The first official Blu-ray compatible receiver)
- Sony STR-DA3200ES
- Yamaha V1700
- Yamaha V2700
- Denon 2807
- Denon 3806
- Pioneer Elite 74txvi
- Pioneer Elite 72txvi
- Pioneer Elite 82txs
- Pioneer Elite 84txs

2007 Models

- Pioneer Elite 91, 92, 94THX (THD + DTSMA)
- Onkyo SR 805 (probably the BEST Value for you dollar under $1000) (THD + DTSMA), a bit more and you can get the more impressive 875.
- Yamaha V881
-Denon 2808 (THD + DTSMA)
-Harman Kardon 347, 745

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post #2 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 12:18 PM
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How about some more options going steadily up in price This could be a nice informative thread for folks looking to get an hdmi receiver at whatever price point they are looking.

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post #3 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 12:20 PM
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The XR57 wont pass 1080p. I know, I had one with my PS3. This should be changed to 1080p and PCM over HDMI recievers thread .
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post #4 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HybridHB View Post

The XR57 wont pass 1080p. I know, I had one with my PS3. This should be changed to 1080p and PCM over HDMI recievers thread .

Isn't it down -10db for the sub output also?

The Panasonic sa-xr 700 fixes both of these issues.
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post #5 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 12:40 PM
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i have actually been looking into getting sound. i was going to go with the denon avr-1506 and the b&w m1-mt10 speakers but the deal on the $250 panny has my attention.

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post #6 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 04:31 PM
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I'd like to hear this lossless audio I keep hearing about, but don't want to upgrade my receiver this soon (purchased maybe 6 months ago and otherwise working perfectly). Is it technically possible that (via a firmware update) the lossless audio could pass over Optical.. or is that something that just isnt possible outside of a hardware solution?
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post #7 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 04:35 PM
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I believe that is just too much information to pass through optical...but I've been wrong before!

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post #8 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofdec7 View Post

I'd like to hear this lossless audio I keep hearing about, but don't want to upgrade my receiver this soon (purchased maybe 6 months ago and otherwise working perfectly). Is it technically possible that (via a firmware update) the lossless audio could pass over Optical.. or is that something that just isnt possible outside of a hardware solution?

I just bought a Marantz 4001 relatively cheaply in Hong Kong (2850hkd = 365) which passes uncompressed PCM through HDMI. BHD sounds incredible....so much better than regular DD. Worth the upgrade to BR just for the improvement in sound. (previously used denon 3801). Not sure about 1080p, since I'm still using component to my older Sony 36" CRT (1080i max).

Can anyone confirm whether the 4001 can pass 1080p in case I upgrade my tv in 6-9 months?
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post #9 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 10:51 PM
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i wonder if the panasonic is available in the uk

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post #10 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 10:59 PM
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Great thread idea eightninesuited.
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post #11 of 504 Old 12-17-2006, 11:08 PM
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if you only have a 5.1 setup, would it be pointless to get a receiver capable of DTS-MA?
note: i cannot possibly upgrade the speaker arrangement to 6.1 or 7.1... space and room setup does not permit that. room 1 is my bedroom in my parents home, room 2 is my dorm room. we have 5.1 in the dorm (roomies brought that).. not as good as mine in my room but suffices considering my speakers will not fit in a dorm (towers and bookshelves).
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post #12 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 12:04 AM
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Quote:


if you only have a 5.1 setup, would it be pointless to get a receiver capable of DTS-MA?

You just need a receiver with HDMI 1.1, as the PS3 will do the DTS-MA decoding in March.

Quote:


Isn't it down -10db for the sub output also?

The Panasonic sa-xr 700 fixes both of these issues.

Afaik, the Panasonic SA-XR57 has several limitations, namely the inability to pass 1080p, the inability to apply bass management to LPCM signals, and the -10dB LFE output (same issue affects receivers from Pioneer). The Sony PS3 doesn't offer bass management or speaker setup like some other players which can help avoid/offset these limitations, which could be a problem satellites or small bookshelves.

The Onkyo 604 doesn't have any of these issues, afaik, but the sound quality isn't as good as the Panasonic for coax/ optical sources.
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post #13 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 12:07 AM
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Quote:


Is it technically possible that (via a firmware update) the lossless audio could pass over Optical.. or is that something that just isnt possible outside of a hardware solution?

It's technically possible with the optical interface, but not technically possible as the hardware is implemented by all players and receivers. In other words, lossless multichannel audio will never happen via optical or coax. No software update or change can ever make it happen. If you want lossless audio with the PS3, save your money for a receiver with HDMI 1.1 or later.
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post #14 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 06:02 AM
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I looked at the denon AVR-1506 pictures front and back and don't see any HDMI connection but they mention it has one,... I just can't find it.
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post #15 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 07:12 AM
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Ok I am pretty stupid and a noob to the audio aspect of things for the most part... I need to upgrade my receiver soon and I was looking at the Onkyo 604, but I was reading some stuff and it made me have some questions I figured I would see if I could get answered here...

If you have an HDMI going through to the receiver, can you use compenent video out to your TV for picture?

Also, if you have Component, Composite, S-Video going to the receiver, can you use HDMI to the TV for the picture?

Guess I am mainly asking if you can kind of mix them... I have many systems and whatnot and my current TV is component only (yeah I know... I need a new TV that doesn't blow)... so right now I need something that can take HDMI (my PS3 for example), components, and still get all of the benefits from it...

Sorry for it being worded so poorly... I can't really explain what I mean well enough to ask the question I guess... hopefully one of you can read "stupid" out there and know the answers.


Thank you.
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post #16 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 07:30 AM
 
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How is the Sony STR DG 800 ???
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post #17 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 07:59 AM
 
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Circuit City is selling a Sherwood for $249 that is 7.1 and HDMI. Anyone know if that one is good? Is Sherwood generally a good brand?
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post #18 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 09:29 AM
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That cheap Sherwood does HDMI pass-thru without sound processing, not true HDMI switching. There's a difference.

Even though I will be going for a low-mid range receiver, I'm still waiting for HDMI 1.3 support. I waited this long, what's 1 more year?

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post #19 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 09:39 AM
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I am thinking about upgrading my receiver too.

I own a Yamaha RX-V1400.

I want something that is at least 110x7, HDMI, and 1080p pass through.

What would you recommend?

The Yamahas have the -10 issue so my guess is it will not be another Yamaha.

I appreciate the recommendations and would like to keep price under $750.

Thanks!
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post #20 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 11:04 AM
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So with these choices you still don't get any Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA, I hope you all know that...

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post #21 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 11:09 AM
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Quote:


So with these choices you still don't get any Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA, I hope you all know that...

Provided the receiver has HDMI 1.1 and supports LPCM multichannel audio over that input, you certainly do.

The PS3 unpacks (unzips) TrueHD and outputs the contents -- uncompressed multichannel LPCM -- through HDMI. The PS3 will do the same thing for DTS-HD MA after the March software update.
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post #22 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 11:15 AM
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The PS3 unpacks (unzips) TrueHD and outputs the contents -- uncompressed multichannel LPCM -- through HDMI.

O rly? Nice...

Nevermind then.

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post #23 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 11:18 AM
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Also, the Denon 2807 and 2307 will do what you ask (some processing allowed of multi-channel LPCM and no LFE issue). However, it is still unclear what HDMI receivers will do with 96 kHz, 8 channel LPCM tracks (a possibility some day), or even 6.1 discrete lossless (unpacked to LPCM) from a soundtrack like X-Men 3. Some DSP engines will not accept anything other than 48 kHz or 88.2 kHz LPCM for processing. You need horsepower to add processing in 96 kHz or 192 kHz multi-channel modes.

The PS3 could also output SA-CD multi-channel via 192 kHz at some point. What will these processors do at that point? An unknown.

It might be a good idea to hold off until after CES to see what the manufacturers will announce.

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post #24 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmlm13 View Post

How is the Sony STR DG 800 ???

It does not decode audio through HDMI. It is only a pass through. I learned this first hand. I have now upgraded to the Sony STR DG 1000 and it decodes everything. You can buy this model for just a little more than the 800 ($525.00 for me on Ebay). I had to order it online because my Best Buy just had the STR DG 800 as their top Sony model.
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post #25 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 11:44 AM
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Waitaminute....the Panny has the same bass issues as Pioneer receivers?

I just ordered it this weekend to replace my Pioneer VSX-D812K, for two reasons.
One is that I plan on getting a PS3 soon, the other is that when hooked up via the 5.1 analog outs on my HD-A1, bass is very weak on HD-DVD. I was hoping making the move to HDMI, or at least hooking it to the 5.1 analog inputs on the Panny, would resolve that issue. Is this not the case?
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post #26 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Graham View Post

Waitaminute....the Panny has the same bass issues as Pioneer receivers?

I just ordered it this weekend to replace my Pioneer VSX-D812K, for two reasons.
One is that I plan on getting a PS3 soon, the other is that when hooked up via the 5.1 analog outs on my HD-A1, bass is very weak on HD-DVD. I was hoping making the move to HDMI, or at least hooking it to the 5.1 analog inputs on the Panny, would resolve that issue. Is this not the case?

You want the Panasonic sa-xr 700 which does not have the -10db issue, does 1080p and 8 channel 192/24 over hdmi with 1.2 hdmi.

I just ordered one for 549.00

The Panys are designed to be basically a powered dac....but only via digital....and in this scenario hdmi digital.
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post #27 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 01:05 PM
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Thank goodness for you guys. I was able to cancel the Panny and order the Onkyo from J&R for just $369.00 shipped.
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post #28 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, if you're getting an HDMI receiver MAKE SURE you match the output of your PS3 to what your receiver can accept. Sending a 1080p signal into a 1080i HDMI receiver is not going to work well.

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post #29 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 03:03 PM
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Hmmm, I'm pretty slow to get new technology but I guess I should ask questions to find out how to further upgrade my setup.

I had a 36" RCA TV (S-Video) for the past 10 years or so and upgraded to the Sony 60" SXRD XBR (dual HDMI v1.2). I also now have a PS3 console (1 HDMI v1.3). So visually I'm all set for Blu-ray movies and next-gen games. I also have an upconverting DVD recorder (1 HDMI v1.2) to record my NBA games.

My current sound setup however is a Pioneer receiver and speakers from 10 years ago that sends out a 2.1 Dolby signal that simulates surround sound by sending the same rear signal to both of the back speakers. It's a simulated 5.1 effect that sounds decent enough to all the laypeople in my family, but it sounds as if there's a major difference in the newer technology.

I'm looking at Onkyo 604 recommended here and have a few questions:

- Is it a waste to get a 7.1 receiver when I know I won't ever add more than 5.1 speakers? My room arrangement is set and I know it won't accommodate two extra speakers plopped in between the couch and the TV since the kids are always running around.

- What is the final wire arrangement for what I have if I got the Onkyo.....
PS3 HDMI->Receiver HDMI->HDTV HDMI for one setup, and DVD Recorder HDMI->Receiver HDMI->HDTV HDMI for the other setup?

- Speakers... is there anything in particular to make sure I look at when considering speakers? I doubt my old bookshelf units have enough 'oomph' to take advantage of this receiver. I really don't yet understand all of the lossless/PCM/DTS talk, so in general what must I make sure the speakers are fully compliant with considering all the gadgets I currently have? BTW, I'll place the setup in the corner of a room that's roughly 12x30 feet.

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post #30 of 504 Old 12-18-2006, 04:36 PM
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There are issues with the PS3 and XR-57 in regard to CDaudio/SACD playback:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769373
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