1080p over component. where is the outcry? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello. I have a pioneer pro-1000 (503CMX). My TV can accept 1080P via component. I know that because I watch 1080P with demos and trailers with the PS3. But when I play MI3 I get a very low res picture. I'm very frustrated as my tv is not that old. I spent $650 on the player and $25 on the movie yet because the movie studio doesn't want me to copy the movie i'm stuck with low res picture. There is something very wrong here. I know there are milions like me. Are we supposed to just accept that?
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post #2 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 09:08 AM
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Do you really think there are millions of people who have TVs that accept 1080p over component?
What resolution are you getting?
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post #3 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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The TV says it is 1125i but I think it is lower because the picture doesn't even come close to to what I get from cable TV. I know there are milions. Read this article http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback102.html
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post #4 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 09:31 AM
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if I undrestand things right, your DVD player is HDCP but the TV is not? If so then yep, that's a problem. There's a whole bunch of stuff on this forum about HDCP horror stories. BTW, I took a look at the pioneer website and did a search for your Pro 1000HD. Here's what it said.

Quote:


The PRO-1000HD plasma is a true native wide XGA display. The high-resolution panel is equipped with 980,000 pixels (1280 x 768) and offers four screen modes to handle various formats including 4:3, zoom, full screen (16:9) and wide (expanded 16:9). Its screen is perfectly flat, flicker free and has a viewable angle of more than 160 degrees horizontally and vertically. It is an amazing 4-1/8 inches thin and, weighing 102 pounds 8 ounces, it can be wall-mounted or set on a table stand

If the TV were 1080p, the pixel number would be 'round about 1.3 million. Just a thought:>) I fhis is true, then you're probably getting a 480i/p signal at best.
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post #5 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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My tv has DVI without HDCP. I think it is the software that tells the player to not output full resolution via component. I can't even get a picture with the DVI. I think it 's totally unfair that because of some movie theft all of us need to suffer.
as for the resolution I can only tell you what the tv says. with demos and trailers it says 1125p and the picture is great, better than cable tv hd, and with MI3 it says 1125i. but It also says 1125i with cable tv hd and the picture is much better with cable so that makes me think that it is upconverting a lower res input.
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post #6 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

The TV says it is 1125i but I think it is lower because the picture doesn't even come close to to what I get from cable TV. I know there are milions. Read this article http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback102.html

Are you sure your TV is 1080p? I looked up the model and there was a review of it back in 2002 and no mention of 1080p support.

As for the article that was written before the HD players were released, I don't believe that component issue is a problem for millions right now. I know for a fact that I can get 1080i via component with my player. I think most of the players are that way....the exception is 1080p. But 1080p sets are not widespread enough that millions of people are having this issue. I would imagine most 1080p set owners would be using HDMI or another digital connection.
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post #7 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

My tv has DVI without HDCP. I think it is the software that tells the player to not output full resolution via component. I can't even get a picture with the DVI. I think it 's totally unfair that because of some movie theft all of us need to suffer.

Okay....choices: If you can accept that your TV is not 1080p, then here's a couple of options:

Option 1. Since you have a non HDCP DVI on your TV, get a non HDCP DVI player that scales up to your TVs native res. I'm thinking Oppo 971H here [roughly $150]. That will get you to 1080i or 720p....as high as you can go with your current display.

Option 2. The Pioneer website suggests that your display was made in 2001. Sell it and upgrade to one with HDMI that does 1080p. Make sure the TV says flat out that it does 1080p though. If it doesn't say it then it doesn't do it.

Of the two options, I like number 2 the best because that way, you get to use your PS3 and watch MI3 in full HD. With option 1, you get pretty close but you will still be getting 480i/p from component when using your PS3.
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post #8 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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If i was getting 1080i that would have been ok. But I don't think I get even that because the picture looks like regular dvd. You think it is the PS3? I don't think so but I don't know enough about that.
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post #9 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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javry, thanks. I agree with you that option 2 is the best one to follow. I just wished I could enjoy my set a little longer since it is less than 5 years old.
and as i said before i know my tv can handle the resolution because i see that with the demos and trailers...whether it is 1080p or less i'm not sure. I have the technology required to give me a really good picture but because of hdcp i can't get it.
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post #10 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

My tv has DVI without HDCP. I think it is the software that tells the player to not output full resolution via component. I can't even get a picture with the DVI..............

The basic rule for HDCP is that "the source rules". In other words, if the source [your PS3] is HDCP then everything upstream of it has to also be HDCP or the handshake won't take place. If on the other hand, your display was HDCP but the player was not, then the display would still accept the signal.
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post #11 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

If i was getting 1080i that would have been ok. But I don't think I get even that because the picture looks like regular dvd. You think it is the PS3? I don't think so but I don't know enough about that.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your PS3. The honest truth is that your TVs vintage [2001] is too obsolete for what you're trying to achieve. DVI was brand spankin new in 2001. Heck that's back in the days of Napster HDCP was yet to come about......which is why your TV doesn't have it. I know this is a tough call for you but maybe it's just time to bite the bullet
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post #12 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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... spend $3000 on a new tv and by the time hdmi 1.3 come about I'l have to get a new one...I think people with older technologies should at least not be encumbered by stupid copyright laws.
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post #13 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 10:50 AM
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I think you'll find that most all of us on this forum agree with that comment. You may want to think seriously about buying the Oppo. At least then you can watch some decent looking movies.
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post #14 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks javry. This player looks like it could complement my tv just right.
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post #15 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

Hello. I have a pioneer pro-1000 (503CMX). My TV can accept 1080P via component. I know that because I watch 1080P with demos and trailers with the PS3. But when I play MI3 I get a very low res picture. I'm very frustrated as my tv is not that old. I spent $650 on the player and $25 on the movie yet because the movie studio doesn't want me to copy the movie i'm stuck with low res picture. There is something very wrong here. I know there are milions like me. Are we supposed to just accept that?

The PS3 outputs 1080i60 over component without downrezing. Are you sure that you have configured the PS3 correctly. Do you have 'checked' the 1080i output in the PS3 menu?

What input-info does the Pioneer give you when playing a BR movie with the PS3?

Per Johnny
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post #16 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Per Johnny, I checked all the inputs, 480i, 480p, 1080i and 1080p. the pioneer tells me that I'm watching 1125i but i don't think this is what the ps3 is sending because the qaulity of the picture is not hd qaulity. Is there something else i can configure to make it send the 1080i? I tried checking only the 1080i and the picture looked the same. I hope it is only a configuration issue.
Per Johnny, i think you are right that the ps3 is sending 1080i but only with demos and trailers and the pioneer converts it to progressive. that is why i see 1125p. with BDs i think it sends 480p like javry is saying. I would love to be wrong on that.
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post #17 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 01:47 PM
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Do you have a friend who owns a HDTV ? If so you could hook up your ps3 and see how it works. This could help you figure out if it's your ps3 or TV that is causing the problem.

As long as you are using a "component" cable (Red, Green, Blue ends), HDCP is not an issue that should cause you any problems.

What in the wide world of sports is going on around here !!
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post #18 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 02:24 PM
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Quote:


i know my tv can handle the resolution because i see that with the demos and trailers...whether it is 1080p or less i'm not sure. I have the technology required to give me a really good picture but because of hdcp i can't get it.

For what it's worth HDCP has nothing to do with your analog video outputs. It's a protection system for digital out only (HDMI/DVI).

If i was in your shoes i would try:

1) sourcing a standalone BD player (or HDDVD player for that matter) and connect it to your TV at 1080i via component and test the HD video again (MI3). If it provides you with a significantly better image then that would suggest something is wrong with your PS3.

2) hunt down a HDCP removal dongle so you can use the DVI input in all it's glory.

Additionally why on earth people are recomending you buy a SD DVD player when you're trying to watch a BD disc, or that you should be buying a new TV is totally beyond me.

International HDDVD Screenshot Archive (Full 1080p Images): www.hdmovies.co.nz
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post #19 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 02:59 PM
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Dumb question, but you are playing MI3 Blue-ray DVD right? PS3 will not upvert std DVD that I am aware of.
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post #20 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooki View Post

.......Additionally why on earth people are recomending you buy a SD DVD player when you're trying to watch a BD disc, or that you should be buying a new TV is totally beyond me.

I may have jumped the gun on that one gooki. I thought aviguys principle goal was to have 1080p and use DVI. So my bad there. This is kind've strange though. The product specs suggest that the TV is 1280x768 yet the tables on pages 13, 22, and 39 of the owners manual clearly state that the TV WILL take a 1080p signal over component as long as it's through input 1 or 2 and the setting is in video mode and not vga. So I guess that would be one place for aviguy to look at. Also, in word searching the manual for "DVI", I got no hits but I noticed there is a ton of info about vga. So if we can get aviguys TV configured to accept a 1080p signal through component, then I agree that HDCP doesn't have a dog in the fight.
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post #21 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Wi View Post

As long as you are using a "component" cable (Red, Green, Blue ends), HDCP is not an issue that should cause you any problems.

This is from the PS3 manual:
Copyright-protected Blu-ray Discs may only output at 1080p using an HDMI cable connected to a device that is compatible with the HDCP standard.

I think that contradicts what you are saying.
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post #22 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooki View Post

For what it's worth HDCP has nothing to do with your analog video outputs. It's a protection system for digital out only (HDMI/DVI).

the PS3 manual suggests otherwise. please see my reply to David_Wi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gooki View Post

If i was in your shoes i would try:

1) sourcing a standalone BD player (or HDDVD player for that matter) and connect it to your TV at 1080i via component and test the HD video again (MI3). If it provides you with a significantly better image then that would suggest something is wrong with your PS3.

2) hunt down a HDCP removal dongle so you can use the DVI input in all it's glory.

Additionally why on earth people are recomending you buy a SD DVD player when you're trying to watch a BD disc, or that you should be buying a new TV is totally beyond me.

What is a HDCP removal dongle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVFan View Post

Dumb question, but you are playing MI3 Blue-ray DVD right? PS3 will not upvert std DVD that I am aware of.

Yes. I'm talking about the BD version.
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post #23 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 05:08 PM
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And here's what the PS3 site says avuguy:

Quote:
Depending on the type of TV or content to be played, some video modes may not be supported. If a device that is not compatible with the HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) standard is connected to the system using an HDMI cable, video and/or audio cannot be output from the system.

Copyright-protected Blu-ray video discs can only be output at 1080p using an HDMI cable connected to a device that is compatible with the HDCP (Highbandwidth Digital Content Protection) standard.

so one thing is for sure. You won't get 1080p from the PS3 without HDMI eventhough your TV can handle it. The question then remains whether the HDMI/HDCP rule applies to all HD or just to 1080p. I suspect that the PS3 is truncating you back to SD [480i/p] though I'm not for certain. Also, please check to make sure you actually have DVI. I could not find it in the manual at all.
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post #24 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

I may have jumped the gun on that one gooki. I thought aviguys principle goal was to have 1080p and use DVI. So my bad there. This is kind've strange though. The product specs suggest that the TV is 1280x768 yet the tables on pages 13, 22, and 39 of the owners manual clearly state that the TV WILL take a 1080p signal over component as long as it's through input 1 or 2 and the setting is in video mode and not vga. So I guess that would be one place for aviguy to look at. Also, in word searching the manual for "DVI", I got no hits but I noticed there is a ton of info about vga. So if we can get aviguys TV configured to accept a 1080p signal through component, then I agree that HDCP doesn't have a dog in the fight.

javry, thanks for taking the time to look at the manual. I would like to get 1080p or 1080i for that matter over component and I think that HDCP is preventing me from getting that. I think the component connection is good because I can see 1080p over the same connection with the demos and trailers. I think that the BD software tells the player to only display 480p over component. I hope I'm wrong. I just got Fox's Kingdom of Heaven. I did not see the copy protection symbol on the disk so I'm hoping it will play the full HD. I'll let you know.
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post #25 of 38 Old 01-06-2007, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

And here's what the PS3 site says avuguy:



so one thing is for sure. You won't get 1080p from the PS3 without HDMI eventhough your TV can handle it. The question then remains whether the HDMI/HDCP rule applies to all HD or just to 1080p. I suspect that the PS3 is trancating you back to SD [480i/p] though I'm not for certain. Also, please check to make sure you actually have DVI. I could not find it in the manual at all.

I do have DVI but it's not HDCP so I don't get a picture over it. The DVI is on the PDA-5002 card. That's why you don't see it in the manual. So far I was only able to use it with my computer.
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post #26 of 38 Old 01-07-2007, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

I do have DVI but it's not HDCP so I don't get a picture over it. The DVI is on the PDA-5002 card. That's why you don't see it in the manual. So far I was only able to use it with my computer.

Well aviguy, with that, I think we're back to Option 1 and 2, unless anybody else has any brighter ideas. The one good thing about the Oppo 971H is that it doesn't cost a lot relatively and it will get you to everything but 1080p using non HDCP DVI. And while it won't help you much for using your HD player or HD disks, it will at least allow you some HD viewing up to 1080i as long as you have your current display. As far as getting the PS3 player and blu ray to do an HD handshake with a non HDCP display, I just don't know of a viable option short of getting a TV or PJ with HDMI [and hence HDCP] or HDCP compliant DVI. I did find the link below on the UKs AV Forum but I don't think it will be of much help to you.

http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cu...itle&title=241

I also looked at outboard scalers like the Iscan HD or HD+, but even there, the literature suggests that both scalers would accept a non HDCP signal and do wonders with it but could not handshake with an HDCP player and especially not the new Blu Ray or HD DVD players.

A secrets article from 2004 has this to say:

Quote:


Unfortunately, consumers with analog displays are completely in the lurch, as many new video processors support DVI, but cannot display that content to the component video output. The DVDO HD+ video processor is a perfect example. Technically you could connect a DVI cable from a DVI output on a satellite box to the DVDO processor, scale, massage, and output it via component video in HD. But (and it's a big but) DVDO is required to shut off the component outputs when an HDCP encoded signal is present. It's frustrating, because HDCP licensing has tied the hands of premiere manufactures like DVDO.

Gooki listed something about an HDCP removal dongle. Perhaps we can get him to chime back in with a recommendation?
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post #27 of 38 Old 01-07-2007, 11:22 AM
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aviguy, did you try leaving 1080P unchecked? I think this should work for you.

Tom
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post #28 of 38 Old 01-07-2007, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tazzmann View Post

aviguy, did you try leaving 1080P unchecked? I think this should work for you.

Tom

Yes, I did. It didn't help. Maybe I'm getting 1080i and I'm just not that impressed. I guess I expected more especially since the trailers I download from Sony look so good. So far I tried MI3 and Kingdom of Heaven. KOH looked better than MI3 but less than cable hd quality in my opinion.
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post #29 of 38 Old 01-07-2007, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by javry View Post

Well aviguy, with that, I think we're back to Option 1 and 2, unless anybody else has any brighter ideas. The one good thing about the Oppo 971H is that it doesn't cost a lot relatively and it will get you to everything but 1080p using non HDCP DVI. And while it won't help you much for using your HD player or HD disks, it will at least allow you some HD viewing up to 1080i as long as you have your current display. As far as getting the PS3 player and blu ray to do an HD handshake with a non HDCP display, I just don't know of a viable option short of getting a TV or PJ with HDMI [and hence HDCP] or HDCP compliant DVI. I did find the link below on the UKs AV Forum but I don't think it will be of much help to you.

http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cu...itle&title=241

I also looked at outboard scalers like the Iscan HD or HD+, but even there, the literature suggests that both scalers would accept a non HDCP signal and do wonders with it but could not handshake with an HDCP player and especially not the new Blu Ray or HD DVD players.

A secrets article from 2004 has this to say:



Gooki listed something about an HDCP removal dongle. Perhaps we can get him to chime back in with a recommendation?

You are right about not having many choices. I'll have to get me a new TV with HDMI. The pio 5070 supposed to be nice but w/out 1080p support. With CES under way I should be able to get a good set for a good price shortly, I hope.
As for the HDCP removal dongle, i don't think it is a viable solution in the US. I read about a device called DVI-MAGIC that is made by a German company but I don't think you can get it in the US.
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post #30 of 38 Old 01-07-2007, 02:39 PM
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I also don't truthfully think the dongle has any path to success but since gookie brought it up, I wanted him to have the opportunity to respond. Guess he's gone on to higher ground. I know the DVI Magic was real hot a few months ago but I'm not sure they're even available anymore. From everything I've read, these studios are pressing HDCP real hard and the FCC is already bought in. I think the ultimate goal is to envrypt everything [including PC operating systems] with copy protection and do away completly with analog audio/video as an option for any viewing except low level SD. The FCC wants to have all this take place by 2010 but the public isn't buying in as quickly as they thought they would. So they may have to move the date out again. The original date was 2006.

The only push back I know of is the only real power we all have, which is to just not buy in at all to this nonsense. That's what happened with mini-disks and digital compact cassettes in the early 90's. They just died on the vine due to lack of support from the buying public. But most people are just not willing to do that these days. So if you want HD, I'm afraid this is the hoop you'll have to jump through to get it. If you bought your TV back in 2001 to 2003, I shutter to think what you paid for it. And to think that it's obsolete after less than 5 years is just nuts. Putting that aside, if you're going to sell it and get something new, I'd do it quickly. Alternatively, you could just settle back, live with it, and let Blu Ray and HD-DVD make thier bones off someone elses pocket book. If enough people did that, I think the the message would get through loud and clear. I guess it's kind've your choice.
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