NIN Beside You in Time only plays at 1080i with PS3?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

I just started watching the Blue Ray version of NIN Beside You In Time, but I noticed that when I hit the info button on my Samsung HLS 5087w the resolution shows as 1920 x 1080i I checked the settings on my PS3 and 1080p is selected, but when playing the disc the max resolution is only 1080i. I've played around with the settings but I can't get my PS3 to display this blu ray disc at 1080p on my 1080p tv, has anyone else experienced this problem?
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post #2 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:22 PM
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You have watched other Blu-ray movies in 1080p on the same HDTV right?
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post #3 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:26 PM
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This is not a problem.

In the Blu-ray spec, 1080p/30 video is flagged as 1080i/60. During playback the stream is then displayed properly as progressive 30 fps 1080 video, although your on screen display will say 1080i because it's reading the flag.

This is just how the spec works for 30fps material.
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post #4 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:32 PM
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The PS3 is not outputting 1080p on NiN, it is outputting 1080i because this title is encoded as interlaced. The PS3 can only output the native format of the title.

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post #5 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Of course, I have Blackhawk Down, Ice Age and Talladega Nights and they all play at 1080p, as a matter of fact I just switched to BHD right now and this blu ray disc is playing at 1080p........tried Ice Age too and same result 1080p, only NIN displays at 1080i..... by the way I have software version 1.50 on the PS3
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post #6 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimby_99 View Post

This is not a problem.

In the Blu-ray spec, 1080p/30 video is flagged as 1080i/60. During playback the stream is then displayed properly as progressive 30 fps 1080 video, although your on screen display will say 1080i because it's reading the flag.

This is just how the spec works for 30fps material.

So couldn't this technically be considered an advantage to buying the HD DVD version? Seeing as how it would be flagged as 1080p on HD DVD? Or am I missing something?
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post #7 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:38 PM
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Quote:


Of course, I have Blackhawk Down, Ice Age and Talladega Nights and they all play at 1080p, as a matter of fact I just switched to BHD right now and this blu ray disc is playing at 1080p

That is because those titles are encoded as 1080p24 while NiN is encoded as 1080i60. Titles encoded as 1080p24 will output as 1080p60 from the PS3. Titles encoded as 1080i60 will output as 1080i60 from the PS3. Titles encoded as 720p24 will output as 72024 from the PS3.

The PS3 does not have any video post processing (deinterlacing/scaling) for HD, so it can only output what is on the disc.

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post #8 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimby_99 View Post

This is not a problem.

In the Blu-ray spec, 1080p/30 video is flagged as 1080i/60. During playback the stream is then displayed properly as progressive 30 fps 1080 video, although your on screen display will say 1080i because it's reading the flag.

This is just how the spec works for 30fps material.

Thanks Jimby, this would make sense if all my discs displayed 1080i when played back, but so far only NIN displays this resolution, all the other are displayed as 1080p
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post #9 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GamerGuyX View Post

So couldn't this technically be considered an advantage to buying the HD DVD version? Seeing as how it would be flagged as 1080p on HD DVD? Or am I missing something?

There is no difference in the display quality for 30fps material. The actual stream is 1080p/30. The only difference is how the Blu-ray spec wants the stream to be identified to the decoder.
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post #10 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soycrema View Post

Thanks Jimby, this would make sense if all my discs displayed 1080i when played back, but so far only NIN displays this resolution, all the other are displayed as 1080p

Because the NIN is probably the only 30fps content that you have played back. All US film content is 24 fps, which is flagged as progressive.
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post #11 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimby_99 View Post

There is no difference in the display quality for 30fps material. The actual stream is 1080p/30. The only difference is how the Blu-ray spec wants the stream to be identified to the decoder.

It was discussed a while back that although it may be possible to encoded progressively with interlaced flags, this is not what was done in this release. It is truly encoded as interlaced.
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post #12 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

No technically the BD has the advantage because it is a higher bitrate encode.

Also has on the fly camera switching on a few songs.

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post #13 of 39 Old 02-27-2007, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abr27440 View Post

It was discussed a while back that although it may be possible to encoded progressively with interlaced flags, this is not what was done in this release. It is truly encoded as interlaced.


And how do you know this?
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post #14 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 05:38 AM
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Problem is none of the BD players out there do 2-2 de-interlacing which is what you would want for this disc to display it correctly. Outboard video processors like the VP50, Gennum VXP and Realta based do. With the HD DVD you don't have to worry about this.

HD DVD is encoded as 24p for film titles.

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post #15 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

No technically the BD has the advantage because it is a higher bitrate encode.

Is this documented some where? I thought they used the same video encode just flagged differently. I'm format neutral but bought the HD DVD version for the reason Kris mentioned above.

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post #16 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

The PS3 does not have any video post processing (deinterlacing/scaling) for HD, so it can only output what is on the disc.


Well it can scale HD to 480p if the source TV does not accept 1080i/p. So it is capable of scaling HD down to SD.

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post #17 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

Its on the NIN FAQ. They used a higher encode because some of the scenes for the HD DVD had to be throttled back due to bandwidth issues. It was talked about many times around here.

I've read this several times as well.
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post #18 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 07:55 AM
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I see it in the FAQ now thanks.

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post #19 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 10:54 AM
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post #20 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

Things get kind of screwy when things aren't "pure" encodes. For instance, HD DVD encodes their 24p content with 30i flags. Are these 24p encodes?

This title was most likely encoded at 30fps with 60i flags. Is this a 30p encode?

Either way, 30p = 60i. Its only when doing 3:2 pull down that you get issues.

This is correct. The actual encode on the disc is 30p. The BD spec doesn't technically support 1080/30p, so the content is flagged as 1080/60i to make the stream spec-compliant.

Now the player has two choices at this point when it comes to decoding the stream:

1. The player can look at the actual encode, see that it is progressive, and decode appropriately.

2. The player can look at the flag, ignore the actual content encoding, and process according to the flag.

The better response would be option #1. If your player output is set to 1080/30p, then the player should decode this properly if the player looks at each progressive frame.

Keep in mind that we had NO CHOICE in how to flag this content for playback. The BD spec does not currently support 1080/30p, so our hands were tied.

But, to reiterate, the encode on the disc is 1080/30p.

(BTW, I am the production supervisor for all three versions of this release)

Regards,
Jim
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post #21 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 01:06 PM
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Having viewed parts of the Blu-ray version, the result is pretty impressive but not quite "5 star" quality as blessed by HiDef Digest. I would give it a Tier 1 rating. Viewing on a 1080P LCD TV (LCDs tend to accentuate artefacts) there are still cases of "gentle" macroblocking and video noise on the main feature (i.e. not the obviously lower grade HDV footage).

Having said that, this must surely be the worst case real world scenario for HD encoding. Stroboscopic effects and dimly lit conditions through most of the feature make it a torture test. The VC-1 codec stands up extremely well here (with some tweaks specific to this release). Nice job jimby_99.

Another note: the 5.1 AC-3 track is very punchy. I can't wait to hear the TrueHD track unleashed (I'll have to wait for my next BD player for that).

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post #22 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dahester View Post

Having viewed parts of the Blu-ray version, the result is pretty impressive but not quite "5 star" quality as blessed by HiDef Digest. I would give it a Tier 1 rating. Viewing on a 1080P LCD TV (LCDs tend to accentuate artefacts) there are still cases of "gentle" macroblocking and video noise on the main feature (i.e. not the obviously lower grade HDV footage).

Having said that, this must surely be the worst case real world scenario for HD encoding. Stroboscopic effects and dimly lit conditions through most of the feature make it a torture test. The VC-1 codec stands up extremely well here (with some tweaks specific to this release). Nice job jimby_99.

Another note: the 5.1 AC-3 track is very punchy. I can't wait to hear the TrueHD track unleashed (I'll have to wait for my next BD player for that).


This video was a huge challenge to encode. You've identified some of the challenges, here's a more complete list:

1. Strobe lights - completely kill interframe compression
2. Smoke and fog - encoding nightmare because of movement and subtle gradations
3. Dynamically moving cameras
4. Full 1080/30p resolution...the maximum the format supports (the film guys at least get to save some bits going at 24p)
5. Stage lighting only - no supplementals to knock contrast down or even exposure
6. Fast cuts
7. Camera gain noise during dark sequences


When we did the first round of encoding, we discovered sequences that simply could not be encoded properly no matter what the bit rate. We sent sequences of the show to Microsoft so their engineers could tweak their encoder specifically for this material.

Ultimately our compressionist (Nathan at Ascent Media) was responsible for the encode, and I must say that Rob and I were very pleased given the dynamic nature of the material. It's Rob's show and I think it looks great.
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post #23 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimby_99 View Post

When we did the first round of encoding, we discovered sequences that simply could not be encoded properly no matter what the bit rate. We sent sequences of the show to Microsoft so their engineers could tweak their encoder specifically for this material.

Ultimately our compressionist was responsible for the encode, and I must say that Rob and I were very pleased given the dynamic nature of the material. It's Rob's show and I think it looks great.

Wow, that's cool info.

And yes, the disc looks fantastic.
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post #24 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 03:34 PM
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i looked around but i can't find an answer, so i'll ask. is the blu-ray encode specific to the blu-ray format? specifically, is it encoded to use the extra bandwidth available on blu-ray or is it using the same lower bandwidth that hd-dvd uses (like most of warner's semi-lame cross platform ports)?

i've never been a NIN fan, but i'm thinking about getting this just to satiate my technical geeky side. i'd definitely buy this if it pushes the blu-ray spec to its full capacity.

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post #25 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriptonUpman View Post

i looked around but i can't find an answer, so i'll ask. is the blu-ray encode specific to the blu-ray format? specifically, is it encoded to use the extra bandwidth available on blu-ray or is it using the same lower bandwidth that hd-dvd uses (like most of warner's semi-lame cross platform ports)?

i've never been a NIN fan, but i'm thinking about getting this just to satiate my technical geeky side. i'd definitely buy this if it pushes the blu-ray spec to its full capacity.


The Blu-ray uses a slightly different encode because of the higher bandwidth available during peak bitrate sequences, but about 99% of the two encodes is the same. Any visual differences are likely to be exceedingly brief and difficult to see, unless you like to pixel-peep or are fond of other similar obsessive-compulsive behavior
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post #26 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 04:30 PM
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Jim,

Thank you for your insight!

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post #27 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 06:14 PM
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Just picked up one each of the HD-DVD and Blu-ray freebies from BestBuy. Can't wait to take the Pepsi Challenge tonight!

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post #28 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 06:48 PM
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Jim,

Thank you for the info. You guys have put together a truly great disc here. Incredible!
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post #29 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 06:52 PM
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looking forward to viewing this when it's finally on shelves here in Ontario...I'm told March 6 for BD by local retailers...although I have the DVD here...but won't watch that as my first experience with this title


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post #30 of 39 Old 02-28-2007, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

jimby thanks for your info and congrats on making an amazing disc. I have a question: can you tell us the sampling rate of the TrueHD track? I assume it is 16bit/48khz as most have been so far?

It's 24/48, according to Rob's posts in the Spiral forum.
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